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Going for Gold: Promotions

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jun 18, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jul 2, 2018.
  1. Yes

    58.3%
  2. No

    41.7%
  1. azum4roll

    azum4roll Chieftain

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    I just remove all extra starting units from all difficulty. The starting Pathfinder can keep their extra promotions, but with only one unit they can't snag ruins as fast.
     
  2. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I had an idea, not sure if this is doable so check me.

    I have mentioned in recent posts that Naval invasions are very difficult, even more so for the AI. Its just very difficult to put your units on another person's shores without them getting ripped to pieces.

    So...what if we added this to Amphibious?

    "Gain +25% Defense on Coasts"


    So the idea is, when your unit lands, its going to take punishment, but units promoted for naval invasions can take a bit more pain, using the water to their advantage. And this means Special Forces and Marine units later game would automatically be better at performing naval invasions.

    Thoughts?
     
    Rekk likes this.
  3. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    Coast is just a tag like fresh water and river, right?
     
  4. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Depends on the table and the implementation.

    G
     
  5. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Why not extra defense while embarked? My issue with naval invasions is that my units are very weak if there's retaliation. The removed penalty when attacking from land makes little for me, since I'm opening a path with my naval cannons, and only melee land units may attack from the sea. So, basic stuff is, opening one or two tiles for a sturdy melee unit to hold feet, keep killing units with the fleet, then widening the gap with the meat units and move ranged ones healers behind. Then proceed as usual.
    So, for me, amphibious is the promotion to be used when the region is plagued with short rivers, for the extra mobility. That they are a bit better hitting from the embarked unit, it's icing.
     
  6. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 Chieftain

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    I wonder how well this proposed Amphibious change will stack with Songhai's Double Embarkation bonus? Would it make their Embarked Units more tanky than Ships?
     
  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Yeah, who needs a ship when you can swim!
     
  8. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    How does extra defense while embarked help with naval invasion, which amphibious is supposed to do? Stalker0's proposal makes your step 1 "holding feet" easier because the amphibious doesn't take as much damage from defense before it can move inland.

    Maybe this could help with naval invasions in the Renaissance era.
     
  9. vyyt

    vyyt Chieftain

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    @tu_79, I thought the amphib promo already did increase the durability of units when embarked, am I wrong?
     
  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    That’s not the proposal I am suggesting. I am saying “when the unit has come on to land, and is hugging the coast...they get the defense bonus”. The unit would have the same trigger as a coastal city.

    My hope is that this change would not impact the embarked strength of a unit.

    I think my use of the word coast confused a lot of people, so apologies for that.
     
  11. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Warlord

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    Why not make it +25% attack boost on Amhpibious assaults (it already removes Embarkation penalties)? So you can use them for D-DAY type assaults. Denmark would have a lot of use for it.

    +25% defense on Coasts is good but a little too general. It doesn't really push you to launch amphibious assaults, just to keep your units in certain positions. I already make landings, but only I clear the area out with Navy.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Thing is though you can clear the coast line with the navy but that’s not the problem. The problem is these units land, and lose the rest of their turn. Then the enemy bombs the crap out of them. Machine guns, city attacks, Calvary come in, etc. especially once you have railroads, you can focus huge amount of force into your coastline when enemy units attack. This is why invasions are so difficult, you are at an exceptional disadvantage once units land and your navy can no longer fully protect them

    The promotion would give the units more staying power to take that landing barrage, so they actually have a chance to push inward
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  13. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Warlord

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    I mean, I'm not really opposed to it. I just feel like the more common scenario with your proposal will be that if units receive defense boosts just from being on the coast that it will proc more often when you're doing conventional warfare, just with some units happening to be on the coast. I'm not sure if that's what you want.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  14. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    It's not like amphibious is a super common promotion, and it doesn't provide a combat strength bonus. It's well suited to defending exactly along the coast, which I guess also would include defending your own territory from naval invasion.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  15. vyyt

    vyyt Chieftain

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    I know, I was replying to @tu_79 about the defense bonus to embarked units.

    I am not opposing your idea, but as others have mentioned, we should note that the extra coastal defense bonus will apply even when you just move your unit to the coast - so also to the civ defending against the naval invasion and when when a land battle just happen to occur on the coast.

    But I think I quite like a "coastal defender" promotion.

    Or you could make the promo temporary and last only 1 turn after disembarking. But this seems too niche and difficult to understand (not only for AI) and keep track of.
     
  16. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    I think that's Songhai ability, but then, I could be wrong.
     
    pineappledan likes this.
  17. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Warlord

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    Overrun is pretty weak now that it's only +10% bonus per flank. It was never truly powerful before either. I suggest we buff it to +20% so that it:
    a) Actually is 4x more powerful than the Shock bonus, as the description would imply.
    b) Is actually significant. Right now it's pitiful, I'd rather go Cover, or start the Drill line.

    Also I think March for infantry is pretty bad, the -15% defense hurts. Is it possible to preserve the penalty for Mounted but remove it (or nerf it 5%, at the very least 10%) for infantry?
     
    SupTo likes this.
  18. vyyt

    vyyt Chieftain

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    @chicorbeef, I agree with march on infantry, -15% is quite a lot.
     
    phantomaxl1207 likes this.
  19. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Chieftain

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    I'm not sure march needs a buff. It's still one of the best promotions available even with the penalty.
     
  20. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I think March on infantry is bad but it’s very solid on horses.

    But I don’t think it needs a change, I just pick different promotions for my infantry. Mobility for example is a very good infantry pick.
     
    civplayer33 likes this.

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