Going for Gold: Units

[Stalker0]

Going for Gold: These threads are designed to lock down elements of the mod for the gold release. In other words, if approved, no further changes are expected for this item.

This thread will debate the standard units. Unique Units should be discussed in the leaders thread, not in this tone.

The question is: Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Important Notes:

1) There is no such thing as perfect balance.
2) The key is that each element is strong enough to have a niche, even if that niche is for very specific playstyles.
3) If you vote no in the poll, please comment on the elements you think are in an unreasonable state of balance.
4) If you vote yes, there is really no need to comment. The poll is the key note.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I very rarely use any of the Archer line except for some early wipe-a-civ-away action (regular archers) unless the civ has a very good ranged UU, so my vote goes to no. I just take siege and mounted ranged instead, they have more dakka.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

I do wish Composite Bowman were in a better spot in the Tech Tree. That is my biggest issue with Ranged Units in the early game.

 

[CppMaster]

Guided missile is very weak as one time usage. Does it damage only one unit with not really much power?

 

[CrazyG]

I find composite bowmen a little weak as well

 

[Stalker0]

I find composite bowmen a little weak as well

I generally don't find them weak as much as I utilize catapults for ranged attacks at that point. I need catapults and trebs anyway, and honestly they still do lots of damage to units.

One key difference though is that a composite bow can often take a hit from a horseman, whereas archers and catapults are easily one shotted.

 

[tu_79]

I find composite bowmen a little weak as well

Going golden with units doesn't prevent composite bowmen to be tweaked a little bit, does it?
It's not like it won't be touched again ever. But we won't be reworking promotions as we did last year, or adding new unit lines as we did the one before.

 

[grmagne]

I would slightly increase the range damage inflicted by archers/comp/crossbowmen. For siege units, increase the damage to cities, slightly decrease the damage to units (so that archers have more of a niche) and significantly decrease damage from siege units to ships.

 

[tu_79]

significantly decrease damage from siege units to ships.

Sinking ships is a siege unit niche too.

 

[Bascule2000]

significantly decrease damage from siege units to ships.

Don't do that, there needs to be a way to counter ships without having a fleet of your own. If siege units can't sink ships, a landlocked Civ has no way to deal with frigates and cruisers.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I would slightly increase the range damage inflicted by archers/comp/crossbowmen. For siege units, increase the damage to cities, slightly decrease the damage to units (so that archers have more of a niche) and significantly decrease damage from siege units to ships.

No, naval ranged troops are hard enough to deal with as it is. The anti-ship damage should stay as it is. I would sort of agree about the rest, but I think the AI wouldn't like that. If siege is worse against units and AI makes tons of siege equipment, your troops will wreck them even harder because their stuff won't work too well. I think regular ranged units should get more CS or RCS, the rest of the units should not be changed.

 

[ElliotS]

Yeah. I think that siege units are well balanced right now, and archers/comp bowmen are a bit too weak. I would like to see a small CS/RCS buff, and Comp Bowmen moved to a different tech. We don't need to touch units that are fine to expand the niche for these guys.

 

[Blue Ghost]

It seems to me that the mounted unit line is significantly stronger than anything else for most of the game. Early offenses depend on rushing horsemen, and medieval era warfare is about rushing knights. I seldom build pikemen or longswordsmen at all, since knights are just better.

 

[pineappledan]

My main frustration with the unit lines right now is the combination of the mounted melee line being slightly too strong, and the ranged unit line being slightly too weak. Archers have such a tiny window to be useful, and once military tech is researched they are done for. There's still enough barbarians on the map, and barb horsemen can 1 shot your archers from nowhere. I don't build archers anymore because I find it's just too likely that a barb camp will pop up in the fog, start pumping horses out, and hit an archer like a bolt of lightning. Too cheesy for my taste.

Composite bowmen also just don't really have a niche. They come later than catapults, but hit significantly softer. Maybe just reducing the build cost on them would make them more attractive?

 

[chicorbeef]

I have no issue with Crossbows, I think they're a good example of what a balanced ranged unit is like. Composite bowmen maybe could be buffed but be careful overbuffing them, I don't want them to be better than Swords.

I think Archers could use a buff to 7/8 CS/RCS. The AI seems to like archers a fair bit so this is more of a buff for them than humans I think. It also makes it so that Archers don't get one-shotted by Horsemen, and makes going for Trapping more appealing for dealing with barbs. I really like Medic Archers coupled with Survivalism Scouts (before the Scout itself gets Medic).

I suppose that means Warriors/Brutes would also have to be buffed to 7 or 8 CS.

Remember that the ranged unit line is built primarily for support, they shouldn't be doing the heavy lifting.

It seems to me that the mounted unit line is significantly stronger than anything else for most of the game. Early offenses depend on rushing horsemen, and medieval era warfare is about rushing knights. I seldom build pikemen or longswordsmen at all, since knights are just better.

The mounted line does fall off for a bit after the Ancient-Medieval period.

It could be interesting if Spears/Pikes were given free Drill I, it would mean you could promote them straight to Cover. I find that these units just don't have the combat strength to deal with massed Skirmishers/Heavy Skirmishers, city bombardment, etc. This also fits thematically with how they were used in phalanx formations/whatnot. Swords/Longswords already have Shock I. It gives these two unit lines value over the Horse unit line, which is already quite powerful.

 

[Mad Madigan]

I disagree with this idea that horsemen and knights are all you need for melee combat. They're very good, no doubt, but after the buff to spearman and pikeman CS a few patches ago I feel that horse-based melee units are no longer overpowered. Archers and Composite Bowmen could probably do with a point or two of melee combat strength so they're not as squishy, though.

 

[Gazebo]

Bumping all pre-renaissance archer-line units by 1 RCS, and post by 2RCS, would probably be enough, TBH


G

 

[chicorbeef]

Bumping all pre-renaissance archer-line units by 1 RCS, and post by 2RCS, would probably be enough, TBH


G

I would like if Archers had stronger CS so that they don't get one-shotted by horses.

I disagree with this idea that horsemen and knights are all you need for melee combat. They're very good, no doubt, but after the buff to spearman and pikeman CS a few patches ago I feel that horse-based melee units are no longer overpowered. Archers and Composite Bowmen could probably do with a point or two of melee combat strength so they're not as squishy, though.

Spears/Pikes do fine against Horses/Knights but the problem is that Horses/Knights demolish everything else with their high movement/CS. So, if Spears/Pikes were given Drill I, it would give them a nice niche/ability that would lead me to use them more often.

 

[ElliotS]

Bumping all pre-renaissance archer-line units by 1 RCS, and post by 2RCS, would probably be enough, TBH


G

I'll echo that I think increasing CS by a similar amount seems like a smart move. At least for Archer and Comp Bowman.

Part of the appeal for these lines is that they're less likely to get 1-shot by equal era melee units.

 

[CrazyG]

In theory a weakness of catapults and trebuchets was that they were glass cannons, but that isn't very relevant if their competition gets killed in one hit as well.

The RCS bump is good too.