Gold and Potato Resources!

[lawbar]

I wonder why theres no Gold or Potato resources in the game. I mean didn't they both come from the Americas?

 

[Andvare]

Gold wasn't mine in any quantity in America. Only found in small amounts.
Potatoes wasn't massproduced either.

 

[rsmithuf]

Gold wasn't mine in any quantity in America. Only found in small amounts.

Gold not mined in any quantity in America? Are you serious?

The early Forty-Niners panned for gold in California’s rivers and streams, or used "cradles" and "rockers" or "long-toms,"[10] forms of placer mining.[11][12] Modern estimates by the U.S. Geological Survey are that some 12 million ounces (373 t) of gold were removed in the first five years of the Gold Rush (worth approximately US$7.2 billion at November 2006 prices).[13]

By 1853, the first hydraulic mining was used.[14] In hydraulic mining, (which was invented in California) a powerful stream of water is directed at gold-bearing gravel beds; the gravel and gold then pass over sluices, with the gold settling to the bottom. By the mid-1880s, it is estimated that 11 million ounces (342 t) of gold (worth approximately US$6.6 billion at November 2006 prices) had been recovered via "hydraulicking."[13]

The final stage to recover loose gold was to prospect for gold in the flat rivers of California’s Central Valley and other gold-bearing areas of California (such as Scott Valley in Siskiyou County). By the late 1890s, dredging technology (which was also invented in California) had become economical,[15] and it is estimated that more than 20 million ounces (622 t) were recovered by dredging (worth approximately US$12 billion at November 2006 prices).[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_in_California

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_mining_in_the_United_States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_gold_rush

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klondike_Gold_Rush

 

[Andvare]

Gold not mined in any quantity in America? Are you serious?

Remember the timeline?
The game ends before the big rushes?
Do read your own links before claiming it was.

 

[Refar]

I think the point is, that gold was present and mined in America, as opposite of your claim, which said nothing about the timeline.

Gold wasn't mine in any quantity in America. Only found in small amounts.

The timeframe is off indeed.
But i would be willing to live with some historical in-accuracy, in favour of some fun.
A Gold Rush sounds like fun.

Less excited about potato...

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Remember the timeline?
The game ends before the big rushes?
Do read your own links before claiming it was.

Well, Spain did import quite a bit of gold from their South American colonies. Enough to cause a marked decrease in the price of gold in Europe and exacerbate Western Europe's inflation issues during the so-called "Price Revolution". But certainly colonization of the Americas was fueled more by false reports and rumors of gold than any real abundance of it, and the gold and silver they did export to Europe came in large part from melting down Aztec and Incan treasure. I still think it should be on the map though.

As for the Potato, the Potato did indeed have an impact in Europe by the 17th and 18th centuries, but the Potato is a food. Food is represented in an abstract form in the game already. There's no individual Wheat or Corn (another New World crop) resources, so why should the Potato get special treatment?

 

[Refar]

There is Wheat or Corn as bonus ressurce on the map (tho it's rather rare...) Maybe potato could be one as well...

 

[Dom Pedro II]

There is Wheat or Corn as bonus ressurce on the map (tho it's rather rare...) Maybe potato could be one as well...

I think that'd be a good compromise. But I do have to admit that I have always hated those map bonuses. Farms growing a crop in a place where that crop grew already don't produce higher yields than farms that grow the crop elsewhere. Plants are different from other raw materials because they can be produced anywhere. You can't move a mine. The ore is where it is, and so you have to dig there if you want to get at it. But crops have much greater flexibility. Not only that, but the natural crop is rarely the kind of stuff that's actually grown. The ancestors of corn, wheat, etc. are very different from what's been grown for the last few hundred years.

That's the reason that I'm getting rid of ALL of the cash crops from the map: Sugar, Tobacco and Cotton. Instead, you'll only be able to get these from building Plantation improvements that will give them as yields.

 

[UWHabs]

Having some cash crops isn't a big problem, since maybe a certain area of land is just more fertile for growing tobacco than another one, for example.

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing would be going back to civ 2(?), where you wouldn't always know of a crop until you actually tested it out. So, there it was if you cut down a forest, you would sometimes discover the resource underneath. I wouldn't mind seeing that here - if a tobacco is in a forest, you don't see it until you chop the forest. Maybe even add a new pioneer/scout skill/action - search for arable land, which would take a few turns and then tell you if you have resources underneath.

That or seeing random events, where wheat/corn spaces may disappear after time. Or have the big one as "GOLD RUSH!", which would scatter gold spaces on the map, and give you a virtually unlimited supply of a new "Gold Miner" specialist, which could be free in Europe, but can only be used in a Gold Mine, or maybe at half effectiveness in a silver/ore mine. Or even have the gold miner as a unit which doesn't create a settlement on the gold mine, but creates a "camp" on it (similar to civ 3 colony).

 

[lawbar]

I thought the resources in the game were a bit lacking, compared with other Civ games. And I know the Gold rush and Klondike came later. Most of the Gold came from the Inca and Aztec, pillaging, but it must have been mined from somewhere? to leave it out as a resources just seems strange. I mean if we didn't have gold, there would be no Drake and Blackbeard and the like, pillaging the Spanish Main!
I take the point about the potato though.

 

[Thundercracker]

Since the currency you use is gold, it would only make since for it to be added directly into your treasury instead of existing as a entity that has to be traded to Europe (or the natives). Since trade is a major point of the game and much of the revolutionary dynamics are built around it, it would make the game real boring if you could just tap a gold mine and sit back.

 

[Refar]

Not sure here.

You are probably right, about just making a gold mine producing some Gold/Turn beeing not all that exciting.

Still, the Treasure you get is "Just Gold" too.
And you must ship and sell it to europe, to get something out of it.
Didn't hear many people complaining about it beeing boring either. (However on bigger maps i sometimes get the feeling it might be a wee too much...)

There are also other possibilities... Gold Rushes fuelling immigration boosts for example.

@ Dom Pedro II
I can follow your reasoning about Plant-Ressources, but i dislike the approach from the Gameplay aspect - the Colonization maps are really boring as they are - any spot is as good as any other - you can settle whereever you hit land.
Removing the few bonus-tiles there are will make this worse.

A possible better solution might be to make sugat Sugar/Tobaco/Cotton apper in clusters.
Bonus-free tiles could only support farms for food.
The Ressources-tiles would still need to be improved as plantation, as you said - to give any yield - creating "plantation reagions".

While not entirely realistic, it would add some variety to the map, making location have more influence on the game.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Since the currency you use is gold, it would only make since for it to be added directly into your treasury instead of existing as a entity that has to be traded to Europe (or the natives). Since trade is a major point of the game and much of the revolutionary dynamics are built around it, it would make the game real boring if you could just tap a gold mine and sit back.

Well, gold was sent back to the motherland in sufficient quantities that treasure fleets carrying it were targetted by pirates and privateers. While I think that gold should be more closely tied into your treasury, there's a distinction between gold ore and the gold coin that fills your treasury.

The other thing is that gold mines could contain finite quantities of gold after which the mine becomes exhausted and that source of revenue dries up.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

@ Dom Pedro II
I can follow your reasoning about Plant-Ressources, but i dislike the approach from the Gameplay aspect - the Colonization maps are really boring as they are - any spot is as good as any other - you can settle whereever you hit land.
Removing the few bonus-tiles there are will make this worse.

Well, that's not really true. I won't be removing Ore, Fur and Lumber from the map. The plantations require flatland and depending on which crop, there is a question of latitude. The amount of yield a plantation will produce all varies by terrain. Sugar plantations will produce more sugar on Marshes.

I'm also planning to port over Conqueror's Delight from Civ4 in which I included Natural Harbors on the map which allow deep draft vessels without having to build the Harbor building in your cities. And assuming I can ever get the map generation to work, I'll have trade winds that will increase ship's movement when moving with them and reduce it when moving against them.

So map settlement location will be important even with the plantation system. But visually, true, I concede that there will be less variety. But new terrain and feature types could counter-balance that.

 

[Andvare]

I think the point is, that gold was present and mined in America, as opposite of your claim, which said nothing about the timeline.

Here I thought that when we talked about the game, we were actually talking about the game, and not what happened in history after the game ended.

 

[Captain Pugwash]

As far as I know, it was mostly Silver rather than Gold which was brought back in large quantities (by the Spanish). In this game you can get a good silver mine occasionally but usually not enough silver to help much. Maybe there should be more.

Potatoes certainly came back from the Americas but not really as imports to be sold in Europe in quantity. Instead they became a crop grown in Europe where the soil conditions were fine for potatoes. Tobacco and Cotton and Sugar could not really be grown in Europe and that's why they were imported in huge quantities.

In the game it tends to be manufactured products which are exported to Europe (like Cloth or Cigars) but in reality it was the raw materials which were the big earners because they could not be obtained elsewhere. Europe could easily do its own manufacturing.

I guess the game doesn't have to be historically accurate. It is near enough to get a good flavour of the era. They have to change some things to make the game itself more interesting to play.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

As far as I know, it was mostly Silver rather than Gold which was brought back in large quantities (by the Spanish). In this game you can get a good silver mine occasionally but usually not enough silver to help much. Maybe there should be more.

Very true. It was mostly silver. And yes, I think the silver mines need a bit of a bump in the game.

Potatoes certainly came back from the Americas but not really as imports to be sold in Europe in quantity. Instead they became a crop grown in Europe where the soil conditions were fine for potatoes. Tobacco and Cotton and Sugar could not really be grown in Europe and that's why they were imported in huge quantities.

Indeed, the potato was not much of an export, but it had a huge impact in Europe when it was grown there.

In the game it tends to be manufactured products which are exported to Europe (like Cloth or Cigars) but in reality it was the raw materials which were the big earners because they could not be obtained elsewhere. Europe could easily do its own manufacturing.

Yes! That's absolutely correct and one of the things I'm looking to change. I want to make it much harder to start producing tier-2 goods. I don't like the fact that right now you can very quickly be up and running manufacturing goods and exporting them back to Europe. Europe should probably spend a good chunk of the game being the player's source for manufactured goods.

I guess the game doesn't have to be historically accurate. It is near enough to get a good flavour of the era. They have to change some things to make the game itself more interesting to play.

I think there is room for greater historical accuracy that would actually make the game more interesting rather than less. But certainly one does have to beware of the temptation to add realism without adding to the fun and gameplay.

 

[DonaldAtHome]

Or have the big one as "GOLD RUSH!", which would scatter gold spaces on the map, and give you a virtually unlimited supply of a new "Gold Miner" specialist

How do Ore Miners, Silver Miners, and Gold Miners differ, in real life I mean? I don't think we need Silver Miners in the game, let alone Gold Miners, do we?

 

[Zhahz]

You do realize that natives don't have piles of european currency waiting for you to steal/acquire and that the treasures you get from them are symbolic of their gold and other treasures, with european values assigned to them because it's a game?

Potatoes. What can one even say? Other than mod your corn to be potatoes instead of it makes you happy. It's not like the game needs another bonus food tile.

 

[Martock]

That's the reason that I'm getting rid of ALL of the cash crops from the map: Sugar, Tobacco and Cotton. Instead, you'll only be able to get these from building Plantation improvements that will give them as yields.

Any chance you could have the in-game images of them remain? It would be useful to know if a farm is producing sugar, tobacco, or cotton by looking at the plant displayed on the screen. I could tell just by looking at a colony without actually going in if it was producing one of those cash crops. It would be nice if the game would change the image if I decided to go from sugar to cotton to just plain old wheat.