GOTM-02: First Spoiler:

[akots]

... Most games seem to have the AIs build the Oracle by 500 BC. If they haven't built it yet in your game, they must be very close.

That is kinds strange. I have chopped my Oracle way later in the game without any problems. Actually, the AIs in this game are very backwards except may be only one which had been used as an ally and tech trading partner. I do have huge troubles with finishing the game because of a few crashes, lagging and especially having not enough experience in judging how many and which units I need to take a city from the AI and to hold that city. Also, the map is very big with large polar ice caps and tundra areas. But there are still 2 days to go, today and tomorrow, hopefully I can finish in time.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

That is strange. I have chopped my Oracle way later in the game without any problems.

If your playing style in Civ4 is in any way similiar to your style in Civ3, akots, then I may be able to guess why the AI's are more backward in your games than in others:

I'm really happy with my conquest date (writing my spoiler now), but I suspect I won't be once I read your post!

 

[solenoozerec]

Also, the map is very big with large polar ice caps and tundra areas. But there are still 2 days to go, today and tomorrow, hopefully I can finish in time.

I seriously advice you to go for conquest, chances are that it will be faster than domination on this map.

 

[akots]

@bradleyfeanor: I think I screwed a lot, no chance for anything, hoping to get into top 20 and that would be a miracle.

@solenoozerec: Too late, it was played as Domination from the very beginning and had to be finished that way.

 

[Dynamic]

This game my goal is... study for different ara battles, in the other words, I want to try fighting with modern weapons at the late of game and compare it with middle age battles. This strange goal is beacause I almost don't play other games (but I played one between 4OTMs, but peacefully). So I choose Space for target, but not as fast as possible. Unlucky my computer is too slow and I have problems with late game. May be I will not end this game...
I haven't time to write normal description of my game now, but not it's significantly different then hendrikszoon's start. And worse, of caurse. I don't think my main strategy much worse, but I totally miss the ability of robber workers... I think it is the great idea and were bad it's not apeared in my mind

 

[bradleyfeanor]

I decided to go for a quick conquest this time, and not worry too much about my score. I was looking forward to our first game as a philosophical Civ, because I had been pondering a few strategies that I was anxious to try in the GoTM—ones particularly well-suited to the philosophical trait. The strategy I used in this game worked well, but I think it can be refined a great deal (this was my first time to ever try it in an actual game). My plan was to take advantage of the least-used ability of Great People: free technologies.

I plan to go into the specific strategy I used in this game at the end of my post, but I discovered I couldn’t explain the “why” behind my game decisions without outlining the general strategy first, so here it is:

Using Great People to Obtain a Technology Advantage
In the majority of Civ 4 games, research is vital: much more so than it was in Civ 1 through 3. Given this fact, I was intrigued with the ability of Great People to give free research, because getting a few key techs quickly could lead to a victory a few hundred years sooner. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to learn which techs it is possible to get from a given Great Person from just playing the game.

I used the information in the file C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Assets\XML\Technologies\CIV4TechInfos.xml to create an Excel spreadsheet that shows which techs a Great Person (GP) will research and in what order. The spreadsheet can be downloaded here if you want to look at it (it is valid as of patch 1.52). I am afraid that, in this format, the data is only a bit more usable than the xml file, because you have to sort the data (descending) by the type of leader you want, then by tech cost (ascending), and then compare that data to the tech tree in order for tech strategies to emerge. Ideally, some xml/python guy will put the free-tech data into a mod, and then it will be easier to plan a GP/Tech strategy.

For those of you who are not interested in playing around with the Excel file, the bottom line is this: GPs can be used to punch quite deep into the tech tree. The tricky part is that the tech you get from a GP is not only determined by what techs you have researched, but by what you have not researched.

For example, say you have researched through Bronze Working, Masonry, Writing and Monarchy. If you get a Great Engineer at that point, he will give you Metal Casting. But if you have not researched Bronze Working, he will give you Feudalism: big difference!

Another example of a GP/Tech strategy is one I used in an Emperor-level game. At higher difficulty levels, it is nearly impossible to get a tech more valuable than Metal Casting with the Oracle, because an AI will usually build it very early in the game. One way around this is to make a beeline toward Writing and build the Oracle on the turn you finish research. Then take Code of Laws for your free tech. At that point, the Oracle will begin generating Great Prophet Points (ideally, along with points from a temple/priest also). When the Prophet arrives, he can be used to do most of the research toward Civil Service—but only if you have not yet researched Masonry. If you research Masonry before using the Prophet, then he will only give you Monotheism. The benefit of early Great Person strategies like this one is that you do not have to neglect the much-needed worker and military technologies in an all-or-nothing gamble on getting an expensive tech like Civil Service with the Oracle. But of course, this strategy wouldn’t be very useful in a Prince-level game or below, when Civil Service is obtainable from the Oracle itself.

There are several areas in the tech tree where Great People can be used to get an early diplomatic victory or military advantage, but only if research and Great Person generation are planned well in advance. The strategies become more numerous and powerful the lower the difficulty of the game. Since 4oTM 2 was only Prince difficulty, there were many options, but I didn’t know which strategy to choose until I saw the land in our starting area and discovered who our opponents were.

The only thing I knew for sure about my strategy before I started the game, was that it would likely involve Great Engineers and Prophets. Engineers are great for researching almost all the early-game military techs, and those would be the most useful for an early conquest. Prophets can be used to support this as well, by researching Civil Service and/or Theology—the latter unlocking a good civic for early military victories: Theocracy.

If the AIs happened to become too strong for me militarily, then Great Scientists would become more useful. But I was hoping that wouldn’t happen, as it would mean I was researching too deep into the tech tree for an early conquest. The goal was to research only the techs I needed to support my economy and to destroy the AIs, and not one tech more than that.

Initial Moves
I started by moving the warrior SW, revealing stone. I considered sending my settler down to claim it for a long while, but finally decided to stay next to the saltwater and the lakes for several reasons. The financial trait and how it makes water tiles more commerce rich was the first reason. Two food bonuses (and later 5 food bonuses with a lighthouse) was the second. And the third reason revolved entirely around the powerful early-academy strategy that Hendrikszoon detailed in the pre-game thread: I definitely wanted my capitol to be a bureaucratic/palace/high commerce/academy science generating city. Since my goal was an early conquest, my capitol would never match anyone’s who was going for a later victory condition (or a milk), but I still needed the extra beakers in the early game. The stone location didn’t fit the bill.

I did decide to move the settler 1N in order to get another hill and a few more forests in range. I didn’t yet know if I would find a better place to build my Wonder/Great Prophet/Engineer city, so the capitol might need those extra shields and forests in order to secure a few sources of Great Engineer and Priest points. I started a worker and set research to Agriculture.

Exploration
My initial warrior continued exploring to the west, noting that goody huts must have been removed from our starting area. He finally found one though, and popped 20g. He then circled around to the north and found a second (and last) hut for me in 3280bc, but it was a Whopper: Animal Husbandry. That little gem definitely eclipsed all the bad luck I had with huts in 4oTM1, as it would allow me to get a powerful academy very quickly—an academy was very important even though my strategy hinged around getting several expensive techs with Great People, because I would still need to research most techs in the first and second age myself. I was unlikely to get any significant techs from trading, because I did not intend to give the AIs anything that would help them research Feudalism (and the dreaded Longbowmen that come with it).

My warrior then headed back toward my capitol, and revealed a perfect location for my second city, York: the exact same location near the wine/corn/cow where many players captured a barbarian city. This location would be the perfect place for a Wonder based Great Person city, not because of the bonus tiles, but because of all the forests. And I planned to chop every single one of them down ASAP. With three grain bonuses in our immediate starting area (+6 health with a granary), health would never be a concern in this game!

After building my initial worker, I pumped out 4 warriors to find out who was out there and prevent barb pop-ups in my starting area. They made contacts in the following order:

3080bc, Isabella
2920, Cyrus
2000?, Washington
1850, Saladin
1775, Mansa Musa
620, Monty

Picking a GP/Tech Strategy to Support an Early Conquest
Most of my strategy coalesced not long after meeting Mansa Musa. Skirmishers certainly don’t help much for pursuing a quick conquest: nor does a shield-poor starting area, opponents whose civilizations are very far away, or a huge swath of jungle covering all the resources in the middle of the map (and slowing unit movement). The stone and the marble would be helpful for wonder building, but the marble would take a while to hook up, because the barbs built a city between me and the marble.

Given these factors, I wasn't comfortable with an attempt to conquer the world with swords and catapults: by the time I reached some of the AIs, they were sure to have longbows. That meant my military tech goals would have to take me through at least Guilds, for knights. Since I was going that far, I might as well get Banking too, for Mercantilism. That would allow me to keep more cities far from home to speed up troop building and healing.

My plan was to design one city (York, city 2) to build as many Great Engineer/Great Prophet wonders as it could. It would also get the National Epic to maximize those limited prophet and engineer points. The prophets would be used to get a Shrine and Theology. Any extra prophets, if they came in the early game, would become Great Citizens in my capitol for the shields. Prophets would be used for a Golden Age (GA) if they arrived late in the game. York simply couldn’t produce too many Engineers: they could be used for Machinery, Engineering, Feudalism or Guilds, in that order. They could even go toward Gunpowder or Chemistry if things got really ugly on the battlefield.

I would use my capitol to generate the other leaders I needed: one scientist for an academy, one merchant for banking, and perhaps a few more miscellaneous leaders late in the game for a GA or two.

So the plan was to conquer the world with Macemen, Catapults and Knights, but to fall back on Grenadiers promoted with City Raider II and III if things got really ugly. My conquest date with that strategy would hopefully hold up pretty well in the competition—unless, of course, someone managed to conquer the world with swords and cats. But that strategy seems too risky to me, perhaps because this game will be the first time I have gone for a conquest victory in Civ4.

Expansion
The build order in London was worker, warrior x 4, worker (2 chops), library (chop and pop rush), warrior, settler (chop), worker (chop). I stopped keeping track after that.

I didn’t found too many cities in the early game, and all those I did found had good commerce potential along with food bonuses for growth. I didn’t want to do anything that would slow me down in getting to the important military and economic techs at the end of the Medieval Age. In hindsight, I should have founded at least two more cities that had high production potential, because it turned out that production was the early limiting factor in my game, not science. Cities were founded in the following order:

4000bc, London—Capitol, science generator
1750, York—Wonder city/primary Great Person generator, later also became a holy shrine
1100, Nottingham—commerce (from gold), stone, military unit production
620, Hastings—commerce (from gems), copper, military
60, Yue-Chi—barb city due east of the capitol, military and commerce
80ad, Canterbury—commerce and marble

Tech Progression
Turn 12, 3520BC: Agriculture
Turn 18, 3280BC: Animal Husbandry (from a hut)
Turn 31, 2760BC: Bronze Working
Turn 48, 2080BC: Writing
Turn 54, 1900BC: Mysticism
Turn 60, 1750BC: The Wheel
Turn 69, 1525BC: Polytheism
Turn 73, 1425BC: Priesthood
Turn 92, 960BC: Code of Laws
Turn 97, 860BC: Masonry
Turn 98, 840BC: Civil Service (from the Oracle)
Turn 105, 700BC: Iron Working
Turn 117, 460BC: Alphabet
Trade Poly to Mansa for Meditation and to Washington for Pottery
Turn 122, 360BC: Monotheism
Turn 136, 80BC: Mathematics
Turn 140, 1AD: Sailing

At this point in the game, I was considerably behind Hendrikszoon in techs. This was partly due to his very early build of the Great Library and his second academy, but also due to liberal tech trading. As I mentioned earlier, I didn’t want to help the AIs get to Longbowmen because they really slow down a military advance. But now that I see how many techs he got, I am not sure if being stingy with my trades (or my tech path, for that matter) was a good idea or not. I look forward to reading his final spoiler so that I can perhaps figure it out.

Revolutions
2720bc, slavery
960bc, confucianism
840bc, bureaucracy, caste system
320bc, representation, organized religion

Great People
1550bc, Great Scientist used for Academy
480bc, Great Prophet generated, but not used as of 1AD. (Major bone-headed move on my part. I was hanging on to him in order to research Theology for me, because I thought I would need it sooner than I actually did. I eventually used him for a shrine, but the delay cost me a great deal of gold and beakers.)

Here is a status report and screenshot of the empire at 1 AD:
5 cities (1 recently captured and still in revolt)
21 population
1 settler
7 workers
7 warriors (2 killed)
2 axemen
1 missionary
1 great prophet (dumb!)
2 barracks
2 granaries
1 library
1 academy
1 temple
Stonehenge (1325bc)
Oracle (860bc)
Pyramids (380bc)

69 gold in the treasury
At 60% research, making 53 beakers and 26 gold per turn. Expenses are also 26gpt.

Score: 506

All wonders were built in York, the city intended to generate prophets and engineers.

 

[solenoozerec]

:thanks: for sharing details of your “great people for tech” strategy. I think that in the games with military objectives, techs are perhaps the best use of GPs next to turning the Golden Age. Due to a lack of experience in civ4, I am particularly inefficient in utilization of new concepts, such as religion and GPs. Nevertheless, GPs have a tendency to appear even if I do not plan them.
In this game, I got a great Merchant and I wanted to use him for a tech. The question was whether to use him for a tech directly or to use him for money and then use this money to research a tech. Obviously, the second way is better if he gives more money than needed for the research of that tech or if you want a tech other than he can give you.
Interestingly, when I brought GP far away from my capital, the amount of money that he could give me was almost the same as it was required for a tech. I am wondering if it was a coincident or the amount of money given by a Great Merchant depends on current technological status.

 

[Shillen]

Interestingly, when I brought GP far away from my capital, the amount of money that he could give me was almost the same as it was required for a tech. I am wondering if it was a coincident or the amount of money given by a Great Merchant depends on current technological status.

They don't always discover entire techs. From my experience it seems that great merchants will always give more gold by doing a cross-world trade route in an opponent's capital than they would give you beakers towards a tech. This could be wrong but it's always been the case for me. So it's more a question of whether 1500 beakers right now is better than 2500 gold in a 10 turns that can be used to turn your slider up. The beakers right now could be better if it gets you an important tech that helps you in other ways. But the big advantage of the gold (other than it being a larger amount) is that that gold can essentially be turned into commerce via turning the science slider up, and then it gets multiplied by any buildings you have in your cities and any research bonuses you get due to other civs knowing the tech and having the prereqs, etc. So if I ever get a great merchant about 95% of the time I'm going to conduct a trade mission with him.

 

[solenoozerec]

Is there any way to estimate the amount of gold before a trade mission at least approximately?

 

[jar2574]

Is there any way to estimate the amount of gold before a trade mission at least approximately?

Hold down the shift key. Click on a merchant. Direct him to a foreign city. Keep holding the shift key. Hover over the button that you make him complete a mission in that city. It will show you the amount. If you keep holding the shift key, you can find out the amount from any foreign city. Then cancel all these moves and send your merchant to the one where he'll get the most.

 

[solenoozerec]

Thanks, that is certainly useful. But this would be possible only if I have a map of the world.