GOTM 03 Pre-Game Discussion

[jayeffaar]

Maybe he added copper to one of those northern hills, to spite everyone who moves south to the plains hill?

... nevermind, I'm thinking of the wrong GOTM staff member.

Still... better have that roaming warrior clear the fog all the way to the edge of the map, just in case.

That's one lesson I learned from my test starts: it's better to see ALL the tiles in your immediate vincinity than to go exploring around the sea. You can always buy a map later if you need to.

 

[bhsup]

I'll be starting this tonight, but I have a question about what seems to be the general consensus on starting position. I don't understand why it seems to be preferred to move to the hill to start. Why not plop down where the settler is instead? Wouldn't that leave three workable hills within its radius for down the road windmill construction?

Granted, this question may reveal why I got creamed in the last GOTM almost immediately (didn't even bother submitting it), so if it is a stupid question, please forgive me.

 

[ewokimpi]

Originally Posted by Shillen:
While I'm sure it can vary quite a bit I'm definitely noticing a trend of copper being more rare than iron is across my games and other people's on here. But with the GOTM, since it's not a 100% random map you really can't base anything off of that. It could very well be that ainwood generated a random map, found no copper nearby, and then added some right next to the starting settler.

It certainly is true that the first two maps have been shaded in favor of the player. Otherwise weak players like me would not have been able to have the positive learning experience of winning on higher difficulties. After all, of lot of us are just learning to play Civ.

If cu has been added within 4 tiles, were gonna rock!

Anyone reading these treads is going to reseach Bronze Working early anyway, so the truth will be known soon.

 

[jayeffaar]

I'll be starting this tonight, but I have a question about what seems to be the general consensus on starting position. I don't understand why it seems to be preferred to move to the hill to start. Why not plop down where the settler is instead? Wouldn't that leave three workable hills within its radius for down the road windmill construction?

My take on that is that moving to the hill two squares to the SW will
- put you next to a river (health bonus + commerce without roads to other cities along the same river)
- put you on a hill (better defence)
- move you somewhere that may have better resources (the lone cow isn't getting too many players excited)
- put you close to floodplain tiles (for increased food production without improvements -- add cottages and you're rolling in it)

Did I miss something?

 

[solenoozerec]

@VRWCAgent – settling in place is not a bad idea. You will be able to start research and produce units/buildings immediately. You will have food producing cow and 2gpt from the lake.
My advice to you is not to go to the hill if you do not know why it is better. At least, do not do it just because others plan to.

For example, let’s try to dispute jayeffaar’s arguments in favor of those hills

My take on that is that moving to the hill two squares to the SW will
- put you next to a river (health bonus + commerce without roads to other cities along the same river)

health:
I think you have health bonus from fresh water, not river, so it does not matter if you are on a lake or on a river.
commerce:
lake gives you 2 gold, none of visible river tiles give you that much.

- put you on a hill (better defence)

Are you really expecting that you will need defense bonus in your capital?

- move you somewhere that may have better resources (the lone cow isn't getting too many players excited)

I wish I knew where better resources are.

- put you close to floodplain tiles (for increased food production without improvements -- add cottages and you're rolling in it)

food: cow will give you the same amount of food as floodplains and I am not sure that there is more than one such tile.

Did I miss something?

SW SW hill has an advantage compared to S SW hill in terms of trade routes.
Though I plan to go to S SW hill for the reasons I explained previously.

 

[DaveMcW]

Did I miss something?

Yes, the best reason. Plains hill gives 2 hammers in the city tile.

 

[bhsup]

My advice to you is not to go to the hill if you do not know why it is better. At least, do not do it just because others plan to.

Works for me. I do think I'll just stay put and settle immediately. Thanks, by the way, for the point by point explanation.

 

[solenoozerec]

Yes, the best reason. Plains hill gives 2 hammers in the city tile.

Even though this is the best reason indeed and a number of players made a similar choice in GOTM1, there is more than one way to succeed in this game, as it was demonstrated by Hendrikszoon who did not move.

The point is that it is not as important where you start, as it is important that you know what to do with that start.

 

[jayeffaar]

health:
I think you have health bonus from fresh water, not river, so it does not matter if you are on a lake or on a river.
commerce:
lake gives you 2 gold, none of visible river tiles give you that much.

You know, I hadn't actually looked at the starting screenshot in a while and I had totally fogotten about that small lake tile. You're right of course, camping next to the lake is just as healthy. Except for the mosquitos. I hear they are a real pain around lakes at this time of the year, on tropical maps.

Are you really expecting that you will need defense bonus in your capital?

Hey, early on, you never know. By itself, it's not reason enough to move, but once I'm there, I'll take it.

I wish I knew where better resources are.

I knew I should have emphasized the "may" in "may have better resources"... My point was that we're not leaving anything special behind. It's a crapshoot whether there's something interesting behond that hill.

food: cow will give you the same amount of food as floodplains and I am not sure that there is more than one such tile.

This would be more of an educated guess than anything else. From my test starts, floodplain tiles tend to clump together around rivers, near the sea. Where there's one, there's usually a few. Will this hold true here? Who knows? Again, since we're not leaving anything special behind, it might be worth taking a chance.

 

[ewokimpi]

Originally posted by jayeffaar
This would be more of an educated guess than anything else. From my test starts, floodplain tiles tend to clump together around rivers, near the sea. Where there's one, there's usually a few.

Floodplains appear only on desert tiles adjacent to rivers, however far they are from the coast. No other terrain feature next to rivers will have floodplains.

This appears to be true on Inland Sea maps anyway.

Not all adjacent desert tiles will have a floodplain, however. Perhaps there needs to be more than one adjacent tile?

Ye who know the truth, speak!

 

[solenoozerec]

@jayeffaar – Please, do not get me wrong. I did not attempt to say that your reasoning does not make any sense. It does and I will be moving to those hills myself anyway.
I initiated this dispute only to show (to VRWCAgent) that your opinion can be critically evaluated as almost any decision in this game.

In GOTM1 DaveMcW moved to plain hill, Hedrikszoon did not. They got first two places. Each of them had their own reasons to start their games in their own way. I will be surprised if any of them think that they used a wrong starting position.

 

[DaviddesJ]

In GOTM1 DaveMcW moved to plain hill, Hedrikszoon did not. They got first two places. Each of them had their own reasons to start their games in their own way. I will be surprised if any of them think that they used a wrong starting position.

I used a third starting place (on Silk) and I also think I made a good choice.

 

[jayeffaar]

Considering my low score in the first two games, my reasoning definitely needs to be questioned sometimes. I certainly have no problem with that. I'm enjoying one last occasion for a pre-game discussion before I get to go home and see for myself what's beyond those hills.

Have a good game, everybody. See you in the spoilers...

 

[gdgrimm]

- put you next to a river (health bonus + commerce without roads to other cities along the same river)

Somebody already mentioned that the lake gets you the same health bonus.

The commerce bonus of immediate access to trade network might be considered a bigger deal, but you're playing Tokugawa. You already start with knowledge of the wheel, and as soon as you have a worker, you can build a road to the river and accomplish the same goal.

If one weren't starting with Wheel, then the research time of that tech (and the opportunity cost of not researching other techs), makes the river access starts much more attractive.

 

[rkyte]

Floodplains appear only on desert tiles adjacent to rivers, however far they are from the coast. No other terrain feature next to rivers will have floodplains.

This appears to be true on Inland Sea maps anyway.

Not all adjacent desert tiles will have a floodplain, however. Perhaps there needs to be more than one adjacent tile?

Ye who know the truth, speak!

Flood plains will only appear on desert tiles that are adjacent to a river. The map editor will allow you to make any tile a flood plain, but the map generator does not do this.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Not all adjacent desert tiles will have a floodplain, however. Perhaps there needs to be more than one adjacent tile?

Ye who know the truth, speak!

I think the existence of desert next to a river, without floodplains, is a bug. I don't know the exact circumstances that trigger it, though.

 

[jayjackson]

Well, being as how I'm new to this site and the forums since buying Civ 4, this will be my first GOTM. I just got into reading the forums near the end of the month last month, so only got the save for a practice start as I didn't have the time to get it submitted.

That being said, I started my career out on Noble, and absolutely crushed the CPU the last 2 games I have played. I didn't notice TOO much of a difference when messing with the Prince save from last month, but should I expect a thorough rout while making this (basically 2 difficulty) jump?

I've spent a lot of time messing around with different variants, etc - and have read and read and read to learn as much about every single game mechanic as I can.

Either way, I'm going to play this GOTM on Contender, after playing two practice games to 1AD. It didn't seem outrageously difficult, so I'm going to give it a rip.

The folks on these forums have been outstanding, and I would just like to extend a hearty "Good Luck" and happy gaming to all. Hope to see you all in the spoilers for some good talk!

 

[akots]

It seems that in the inner sea maps, the contacts are significantly delayed compared to Pangea and AI scouts are not going in circles around your start which means less exploration for you and more scouting of local areas with warriors/scouts against animals and barbarians. Also, moving on start is somewhat dangerous since you may end up in a corner or too close to the AI's capital. It would be very nice to have a minimap as it was for Civ3 for these kinds of map. Otherwise, it is very tricky to pick up the right place for the capital. So, general idea might be just to settle in place without much thinking. I've loaded a couple of tryout games with similar settings and whenever I moved the settler, it always ended up in some weird location.

 

[T_Raccoon]

Im not sure if anyones asked this yet but what are the chances of popping something good with goody huts using warriors on Monarch? do i pop goody huts when i see them or should i bypass if i only have warriors exploring?

Im asking this because i've never played a monarch game before and this will be my first ever Monarch game no test games either don't really have the time. Actually i've never played anything higher then Noble to say the truth. I just want to play for fun.

 

[jafink]

I have just played a quick test game for gotm 3, and, me being someone who has never won Monarch or higher on anything other than a duel map before, I would like to share my observations. I hope this is useful, and feel free to say whatever you want, and share your ideas.

1. Barbarians -- I'm not sure if this always happens, but in my game, it seemed there was a specific turn that barbarians started coming. This is more of a problem than it seems, because you don't really get a warning and suddenly there is 3 warriors, and an archer appearing within two turns of each other.

I gotta say that it is very important to either get bronzeworking or archery early, so you can counter the barbarian menace.

2. War -- I started beside Monty, and He definately attacks you quicker on monarch than on prince. 2 turns after i had discovered machinary, having already researched civil service, he declared. Up to this point i had neglected my army, planning on building a mass of samurai, but i hadn't even finished one. He pillaged my lands and slowly i pushed him back, and even captured one of his cities. By now i had severe unhappiness problems. He recaptured and sent a second wave. that wiped me out.

It is crucial, especially if your beside an aggressive opponent, to build your military right away. Never be caught off gaurd.

3. War Weariness -- War weariness has definately been turned up on monarch. Cities become unhappy and start to starve very quickly.

You need to try to keep your wars short and sweet to avoid having your cities riot.

4. Tech Pace -- This wasn't as much of a problem as i expected, at the beggining of the game I went straight for Bronzeworking, hen i got a few other important techs, and then beelined for alphabet. It payed off big time. I was the only one with it, and i was only slightly behind. I traded for all important techs, and made sure i didn't give away alphabet.

This is all i can think of right now, if you have any suggestions, dont hesitate to reply.