GOTM-03: Second Spoiler

[LeFu]

Adventurer class

well first post for me and first GTOM and first monarch game...
Since I didn't take notes, I write a brief summary.

I lost the space race to capac in 1919, being myself only 15 votes from a diplo victory... That makes me wish I hadn't declared war on Vicky to please one of my friends (don't remember which) in the earlier stages of the game

My error is that I have not been aggressive enough, since i only fought Monty twice (apart from Vicky) and although i managed to destroy him, it took me almost 200 years.
After the ashes fell down on his former empire in 1700 I was far behind in techs but friendly whith everyone, except Vicky of course, so I decided to cruise to a diplo win. Alas, i let hatty establish a city on the former aztec territory, a city whose votes i could have used for sure. i did farm and windmill my entire land but in the end i missed vicky's vote...

Never mind my game was quite exciting and i learned much i guess...

Thanks to the gtom team for such an interesting game (plus it is much more interesting to read the spoilers and comparing to what the other players did).

base score 4354
final 5179.9 (the minus 15% argh)

Waiting for GTOM 5

 

[Doc TK]

Entry class: Contender
Game status: Domination Victory for Japan
Game date: 1859 AD
Base score: 6837
Final score: 45870

First, this was my first real GOTM. I found out about it last month, and played the GOTM, and totally cheated because I never read the rules. Then I saw a thread on cheating and I realized that I had somehow missed the whole spirit of the thing.

Second, I thought I had done pretty well based on the previous GOTM scores, but it turns out I'm still a total noob. But it was fun to play knowing that the stupid archer who killed two warrirors in your city was really screwing you over.

Rather than rehashing everything I did, I wanted to ask a few questions based on differences I'm seeing in how people have played...

1. Fog & Barbs

To avoid having too much problem with Barbs, I generally put a few warriors out on hills so that there are no squares without visibility. I did it this game as usual, but related questions:

1A. Does your cultural border see? If so, how far does your cultural border extend in terms of being able to see? Is it always one square or can it be two if its a hill?

1B. Does it work exactly the same in terms of Barbs spawning with the AIs. I lost one city to a Barb archer when I stupidly moved my Warrior back into the city. I swear that the Barb spawned in a square adjacent to the AI. Part of the reason I moved them back in was that I thought that between my border and Egypt's border we could see the squares. BTW - the archer killed my warrior and a second warrior in two straight turns. Luckily it was a brand new city.

1C. Is there any way to determine if a square is currently being seen? I can sorta tell based on the graphics, but I'd like to be 100% sure to not be surprised like that in the future.

2. How many Axemen?

My great plan was to get to swords pretty quuickly in case I didn't get copper, but also so that I could find out where the iron was early. I also hate losing Axemen to archers which is what always seems to happen when I use them to attack.

But several people seemed to just hook up the copper and get Axemen and go out and conquer someone. That surprises me.

So, let's say you are going against a city with 3 archers, not on a hill and no city 20% defense or anything, one archer has city defense upgrade, rest are vanilla. How many Axemen with what upgrades do you bring to the party? How many are you going to lose in taking the city? Is it worth it to lose that many?

3. Go for Swords?

By the time I finally got Swordsmen going in my game,

My first bit of research:
3440BC: You have discovered Pottery!
3040BC: You have discovered Mining!
2360BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!
1700BC: You have discovered Iron Working!
1475BC: You have discovered Writing!
900BC: You have discovered Alphabet!

Monty was running around with a few Axemen and everyone in the game liked Egypt, so I ended up not pulling the trigger. Instead I built a small force of Axes and Swords (maybe 8) and Monty attacked me in 410.

I had already switched gears to go after Samuri, so it wasn't like I was sitting there doing nothing, but still I felt it was a waste to get Iron early. I am wondering if that isn't almost always going to be the case in Monarch.

What do you think, on Monarch+ is it worth going for Iron to get swords for an attack?


4. Wait between Battles?

In the war with Monty in 410, I basically killed a bunch of his guys and took one city, but couldn't go any farther without heavy losses, so I just waited until 870 when I had samuri and began to smack him around. I captured all of his cities but one by 1055. Made peace.

Now, I had a decent force and I could have gone right to war with Hyua or Egypt. But from my days with previous Civs, I am trained to wait for War Weariness to wear off before starting up again. I know the same thing holds here, but I didn't bother to see how long.

I've been surprised to see how many people just go straight into the next war.

Should you wait between wars? If so, how long? If not, then how do you keep weariness from dragging you down?


5. Adopt Religion

Somewhere I read someone who had done really well in a GOTM and they didn't adopt a religion cause they didn't want to make enemies. I did the same thing, but found that while my attitude numbers were generally green, I couldn't get people to make war on each other and couldn't trade techs after a while.

I noticed that a lot of the previous posts had adopted religion fairly early and I assume you had the usual split then of Friendly / Annoyed AIs.

5A. Doesn't that hurt your ability to keep up in techs? Or are you able to trade enough with your friends to keep up?

5B. Are other people not adopting? Or am I just lame? Wait don't answer the second part.


6. All Out War

After I attacked Monty, I kinda stalled out. I was a bit behind on technology and didn't feel like I would be able to go after Huay or Eygpt. Also, they were friendly enough with other guys that I was worried that I'd have a couple people attack me at the same time. And, I didn't want to go down in flames on my very first GOTM.

From reading what other people did, it sounded like they just merryily go onto the next battle. No concern about attitude of others. Those who could would bring in someone to fight with them. But, mostly it sounds like once you start attacking you just keep it going.

6A. I wonder how many people get other folks declaring on you. It happened to me in several practice games.

6B. And, how do you stay up on tech and still keep producing enough units. Do you just not build new tech buildings and other stuff like that and just pump units?


7. English Attacked India

I saw someone else mention this. Just as I was getting worried because since I had stalled after taking Monty, I was sitting there losing the tech race. Luckily England attacked India and I quickly joined. Wow, India had some nice cities with Shrines. Pretty much sealed the deal for me.

I felt pretty stupid because I had NO CLUE that the English would attack them and I was thinking, gosh, I should have got them to do it before. Other than the obvious of paying attention to attitudes, is there anything else you can do to have a sense of it. How reliable is that as an indicator?

----

By the way, does anyone else find it hard to read all the different postings and tell what's the same or different about their strategies? Other than comparing initial tech research and the first few moves, I have a hard time.

 

[ScubaRoo]

I felt it was a waste to get Iron early. I am wondering if that isn't almost always going to be the case in Monarch.

IW may be needed for a number of things:

• chopping jungle (for health or resources)
• showing iron to help choose new city sites
• making swords or UU

As with everything else in CIV there's no 'always', just depends on your plans and position. Can't remember whether I researched IW before or after Alpha in this game, but I don't think it would have been a waste.

AI often holds back on trading IW so you may have to research it yourself, even if you get Alpha first.

What do you think, on Monarch+ is it worth going for Iron to get swords for an attack?

Again, depends on your P+P. I don't always rate Swords that high, particularly if you have some axes with decent promotions.

Should you wait between wars? If so, how long? If not, then how do you keep weariness from dragging you down?

I believe I have read in the forum that war weariness is specific to each civ you're at war with. If you end a war with one, then all the WW attached to that war ends. If you immediately declare on a different civ then you start from scratch. Even if you have simultaneous wars and end your longest, your WW will go down. If I have misunderstood this then I'm sure I'll be corrected

I noticed that a lot of the previous posts had adopted religion fairly early and I assume you had the usual split then of Friendly / Annoyed AIs.

5A. Doesn't that hurt your ability to keep up in techs? Or are you able to trade enough with your friends to keep up?

Trading is far easier if you have friends, but again it depends what your plans are. Others have mentioned extorting techs during ceasefire negotiations, though I've found that often an AI will accept elimination rather than part with a tech, even an old one. Your friends will usually give you enough opportunity to trade if that's what you want and if you're developing your own techs to offer them.

5B. Are other people not adopting? Or am I just lame? Wait don't answer the second part.

Again, religion is used in a number of ways. Many people have mentioned adopting Hat's religion to keep her sweet so that your back is protected as you sweep round the rest of the map.

6A. I wonder how many people get other folks declaring on you. It happened to me in several practice games.

Don't imagine many people had Monty not declare on them. Depends as much on how weak they perceive you to be as how friendly they are to you. Several folks have reported how their best mate Monty suddenly turned on them.

6B. And, how do you stay up on tech and still keep producing enough units. Do you just not build new tech buildings and other stuff like that and just pump units?

I'm looking forward to some interesting answers here!

Other than the obvious of paying attention to attitudes, is there anything else you can do to have a sense of it. How reliable is that as an indicator?

Like you, I've been caught out by some of the declarations, so I can't offer much other than to watch religion, border pressure, key resources etc.

By the way, does anyone else find it hard to read all the different postings and tell what's the same or different about their strategies? Other than comparing initial tech research and the first few moves, I have a hard time.

This has a lot to do with the fact that there has been a lot of similarity in the games for IVOTM 3. Sort of set up by the map, civ and neighbours. Only of a few of us oddballs done something different like founding religion, so you'll see a hugh proportion of domination victories.

 

[shadow2k]

1A. Does your cultural border see? If so, how far does your cultural border extend in terms of being able to see? Is it always one square or can it be two if its a hill?

Yes, it does "see". You can tell by the tiles that are no longer under the Fog of War. If it's lit up, you see it. All the tiles touching your borders will be lit up. In some cases, it will see further (over water, or if the next tile is a hill/mt).

1B. Does it work exactly the same in terms of Barbs spawning with the AIs. I lost one city to a Barb archer when I stupidly moved my Warrior back into the city. I swear that the Barb spawned in a square adjacent to the AI. Part of the reason I moved them back in was that I thought that between my border and Egypt's border we could see the squares.

I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure it works the same way. One possibility is that the barb didn't spawn then, but that it was already wandering around. I don't believe that barbs spawn adjacent to any AI civ's units/borders.

1C. Is there any way to determine if a square is currently being seen? I can sorta tell based on the graphics, but I'd like to be 100% sure to not be surprised like that in the future.

Well, the squares you can see are lit up. But no, you can't tell exactly what squares the AI can see. It will have units someplace you can't see, so you wouldn't know. Same for borders...they might have expanded or something, and you wouldn't know.

2. How many Axemen?

So, let's say you are going against a city with 3 archers, not on a hill and no city 20% defense or anything, one archer has city defense upgrade, rest are vanilla. How many Axemen with what upgrades do you bring to the party? How many are you going to lose in taking the city? Is it worth it to lose that many?

Well, it depends. Is the city your only goal? Will the AI have enough troops nearby for a counterattack? Will you possibly get attacked on your way there? In the case you mention, the first archer is 5.1, the others are 4.5. Every axe (with aggressive civs) would start at 5.5. The odds are in your favor, but not by much. I'd probably bring six to be safe, giving you better than 2:1 odds of taking it. But then your military campaign is most likely over without reinforcements.

3. Go for Swords?

Monty was running around with a few Axemen and everyone in the game liked Egypt, so I ended up not pulling the trigger. Instead I built a small force of Axes and Swords (maybe 8) and Monty attacked me in 410.

I had already switched gears to go after Samuri, so it wasn't like I was sitting there doing nothing, but still I felt it was a waste to get Iron early. I am wondering if that isn't almost always going to be the case in Monarch.

What do you think, on Monarch+ is it worth going for Iron to get swords for an attack?

I don't wait for Iron. But when I get it, I start adding swords into my stacks. You don't need to wait around for the perfect army, and in most cases, you can't afford to. But sometimes, I'll wait for swords, it just depends on what's going on in the game.


4. Wait between Battles?

But from my days with previous Civs, I am trained to wait for War Weariness to wear off before starting up again. I know the same thing holds here, but I didn't bother to see how long.

I've been surprised to see how many people just go straight into the next war.

Should you wait between wars? If so, how long? If not, then how do you keep weariness from dragging you down?

If War Weariness isn't a problem and you have enough troops ready, there's no real reason to wait. In fact, sometimes, it can be beneficial to push ahead. In one of my spoiler screenshots, I showed why I finished off one civ and started on another on the same turn...because the way the borders would expand the next turn.

Remember that a lot of War Weariness is civ specific. I'm not completely sure how every detail of it works. But some is based on how many troops you've lost to that specific civ, as well as if they're the same religion, etc... When you kill off a civ, the WW will not go away until the next turn...but much/all of it does go away then. That allows you to switch targets and not miss a beat.


5. Adopt Religion

Somewhere I read someone who had done really well in a GOTM and they didn't adopt a religion cause they didn't want to make enemies. I did the same thing, but found that while my attitude numbers were generally green, I couldn't get people to make war on each other and couldn't trade techs after a while.

5A. Doesn't that hurt your ability to keep up in techs? Or are you able to trade enough with your friends to keep up?

Religion has both good and bad things. You have to make a choice as to which would be more valuable. Not every situation is the same. In this specific game, it's easier to declare a religion, because you only have two neighbors really. So you could possibly pick one to be friends with, and war the other.

5B. Are other people not adopting? Or am I just lame? Wait don't answer the second part.

I don't always adopt a religion. I did in this game. Mainly because four of the civs (including both neighbors) were all the same religion, so I could get a lot of benefit out of it. It actually wasn't the brightest idea though, because I got a lot of "we refuse to fight our brothers of the faith" WW, which I wasn't used to.

I think most people generally adopt some religion at some point. But there are times when it might be better not to. You just need to take all the other factors into account...that's what makes good players good...reading the situation and adapting to it.


6. All Out War

From reading what other people did, it sounded like they just merryily go onto the next battle. No concern about attitude of others. Those who could would bring in someone to fight with them. But, mostly it sounds like once you start attacking you just keep it going.

Remember that some of us normally play at higher levels. We aren't worried about getting dogpiled once we get our civ up and running, because we know the game well enough to handle it. If you played a level or two below what you are comfortable on, you'd be likely to think that the AI's are pushovers as well, and it doesn't matter what they do, you're still going to win.

6A. I wonder how many people get other folks declaring on you. It happened to me in several practice games.

Vicky declared on me. I think Asoka was going to after he cancelled OB and all trades with me, so I beat him to the punch. Both were from beating up Hatty/Sal, their friends. I just didn't care, for the reason mentioned above.

The other thing is just being prepared for it. Expect it. I kept units in Inca lands, just watching Asoka's borders. I knew Incas wouldn't attack me, so I left my northern cities vulnerable. Incas could have taken a few cities had they wanted, but they aren't core cities, and could easily be taken back. My army was in the South, so attacking those cities would be stupid.

I also had like three caravels watching the seas, so that no ship could pass without me seeing it. This map is just made for this type of thing, it doesn't work as well on other types.


6B. And, how do you stay up on tech and still keep producing enough units. Do you just not build new tech buildings and other stuff like that and just pump units?

Only my core cities ever get tech buildings. And I either spread their builds out so some are always producing units, or build them all at once and then all back to units. Maybe even a GA to build infra quickly. Newly captured cities get enough to get by, then a barracks, then units. Unless the city is just made to be turned into a science city or something. You also get a lot of gold from capturing cities, which powers defecit research. Just don't try to build everything in every city, you don't need it. Courthouse/Granary/Forge/some form of border expansion (theatre, specialist, culture slider) covers most cities, maybe a lighthouse. Then a barracks and pump units.

7. English Attacked India

I felt pretty stupid because I had NO CLUE that the English would attack them and I was thinking, gosh, I should have got them to do it before. Other than the obvious of paying attention to attitudes, is there anything else you can do to have a sense of it. How reliable is that as an indicator?

Watching diplomacy, overlapping borders, if they have open borders, if they're trading resources, if the option to stop trading/declare is available, different religions. All sorts of ways to guess, but you can never really know for sure. I thought Monty would attack the Incas instead of me based on a number of things, and I was right...but that doesn't mean I couldn't have been wrong.

----

By the way, does anyone else find it hard to read all the different postings and tell what's the same or different about their strategies? Other than comparing initial tech research and the first few moves, I have a hard time.

This really comes down to the poster providing a good writeup. I try to give reasons for why I do things, but some things may seem obvious to me, but not to others. Part of the reason this month is that so many people probably went with the same basic strategy...build units and kill everything.

I hope that kinda answers everything for you. That's a lot of questions. Still more entertaining than sitting through commercials though.

 

[Gato Loco]

My great plan was to get to swords pretty quuickly in case I didn't get copper, but also so that I could find out where the iron was early. I also hate losing Axemen to archers which is what always seems to happen when I use them to attack.

But several people seemed to just hook up the copper and get Axemen and go out and conquer someone. That surprises me.

So, let's say you are going against a city with 3 archers, not on a hill and no city 20% defense or anything, one archer has city defense upgrade, rest are vanilla. How many Axemen with what upgrades do you bring to the party? How many are you going to lose in taking the city? Is it worth it to lose that many?

Swords are countered by axes. Axes aren't countered by anything. They're just not really good against anything except swords, so they're sort of an all-around unit that can attack anything but not really well. The point of the axe rush is to get at the enemy when he has fewer archers, less culture, and fewer cities. Also, most people in this game went for Montezuma first. Monty is hampered by the Jaguar, a weaker swordsman UU that he tends to build in place of axes, spears, and archers, and which makes a nice juicy target for axes. That said, I didn't axe rush because I had plenty of land to expand into without fighting. Rushing someone would have left me worse off and let other civs encroach on my early expansion.

5. Adopt Religion

Somewhere I read someone who had done really well in a GOTM and they didn't adopt a religion cause they didn't want to make enemies. I did the same thing, but found that while my attitude numbers were generally green, I couldn't get people to make war on each other and couldn't trade techs after a while.

I noticed that a lot of the previous posts had adopted religion fairly early and I assume you had the usual split then of Friendly / Annoyed AIs.

5A. Doesn't that hurt your ability to keep up in techs? Or are you able to trade enough with your friends to keep up?

5B. Are other people not adopting? Or am I just lame? Wait don't answer the second part.

Not in this game. Staying neutral works great if you're interested in forging lifelong alliances and staying out of wars. This month was a very aggressive game in which you wanted to gobble up lots of territory. Alliances would have gotten in the way and been less valuable than the theocracy bonus.

 

[ohioastronomy]

I definitely avoided early religions; I think it's extremely helpful in the opening game. Once I got a religion from one of my neighbors, I adopted it and kept it for the game. This gave me the religion bonus (and a trading partner) without the early diplomatic penalties.

 

[Gato Loco]

GOTM 3 part 2 - The Quest for the Lost City

Contender class, going for domination

When I left off around 250 AD I had just taken 2 cities from Montezuma in a preliminary war and forced him to abandon representation in favor of hereditary rule. I had declared the first time because Monty’s failure to adopt an early religion had left him at peace with all his neighbors, and not building any military. After being attacked, I figured he’d be prepared the next time, so I massed axes and swords and researched to civil service/machinery around 800. I also started the great library and got beaten to it by 2 turns, then spent the refund on upgrading somewhere around 10-15 units to samurai. Monty didn’t even stand a chance this time. What really shocked me was that after being attacked by me, and being furious with me for centuries, and after adopting Taoism out of the blue and becoming his usual angry antisocial self, he still had only ~3 units per city. After breaking through his territory I finally found where the troops were:

Yes, folks, that’s the whole Aztec army cowering in fear in a tiny barbarian city while my samurai storm their capital. Not that they would have been more than a speed bump anyway. Actually he had enough presence of mind to use horse archers against my samurai, not that he had enough to make any real difference. By the time he got there some of the samurai were combat III against his unpromoted horse archers. This war got me an easy 5 cities. More importantly, it got me the pyramids and the resulting police state civic.

During the war, Huyana Capac started cancelling deals to protest my attack on his friend. Eager to give my samurai a real challenge, I declared on him and proved that longbowmen aren’t any better against samurai than plain archers are. The difference between this war and the last was merely that this time I actually needed to bombard down the cultural defenses before attacking. I also noticed that the Incan cities around the northeast corner of the map all had names like Assyrian and Yue-Chi. I think that HC and Asoka didn’t properly patrol their fog of war and probably suffered lots of barbarian attacks as a result. The war ended in 1195 with my empire stretched to the limit with city upkeep.

While I would have loved to make Asoka feel my wrath next, taking more cities would have tanked my economy, so I took a break. I built the FP in Cuzco, put up courthouses everywhere, and struggled back up to the tech lead. This period of rebuilding lasted until 1400, at which pont I had upgraded my army to grenadiers(with city raider), my artillery to cannons, and my civics to State property, in preparation for the final push to domination.

India was a small but fairly advanced civ. If my grenadiers hadn’t had legacy city raider promotions, I would have faced a real challenge. As it was, I ended up with the fabled Holy City of HinBudJewism in my hands. Actually, it wasn’t much of a prize, since the one shrine (Jewish) in the city produced only ~15 gpt and I already had scientific method so I couldn’t easily spread it without giving up theocracy. But no bother. With another civ out of the way it was time to attack Victoria. No wait, Victoria has redcoats. No way I’m going to attack redcoats. Time to attack Egypt instead. True to form, Hatty hadn’t made any trouble for anyone, and hadn’t built up her military either. She also fell victim to a surprise attack by my veterans from the Indian campaign, who snuck through Arabic territory to invade one of her rear cities. The invasion stalled under heavy cavalry attack, but in the process all the Egyptian cavalry were drawn away from the main front, allowing my grenadiers free rein to take out her capital. Ultimately she simply ran out of cavalry when I pillaged her only horses.

After Egypt, I attack Saladin and began rolling over his territory only to be interrupted by a domination victory a few turns into the war. My final stats were:

Game date: 1678 AD
Base score: 5218
Final score: 88164

I see other submissions in the 100k+ range. I think my lesser score is attributable to the fact that I won before all the captured Egyptian cities had a chance to count toward my score. That and the fact that I took so long to get domination. I think that the main mistakes I made were:

Waiting too long to build the FP. I wanted it in a good position in the NE corner of the map, but if I’d poprushed it in Tenochtitlan, I would’ve had much less of a postwar slump after swallowing the Inca, and would have been able to hit Asoka earlier.

Not beelinig enough to machinery. I went for econ/culture techs to get my ecomony up to speed, but I really need those samurai earlier.

Not taking the pyramids with axeman/swordsmen during the first war. It would have been ugly attacking a capital without catapults, but an early police state would have made it up.

Leaving my super-veteran grenadiers open to cavalry attack during the Egyptian war. This had the effect of drawing lots of cavalry away from the main front to attack them but it was still a pyrrhic victory. On the other hand, this really came too late in the game to hurt me.

Not attacking Egypt earlier. I could have taken her a century or so earlier, and finished at a more impressive date. Or I could have gone after Egypt second, before the Inca, and had less distance upkeep at a crucial part of the game, and then taken the Confucian holy city from Saladin (confucianism was ~50% in the religion screen). My decision to go clockwise was mainly because I thought it would be neat to capture the triple holy city of Delhi, and not from any real gameplay considerations.

Attached are a series of maps from various stages in my conquest.

 

[Gato Loco]

More attached maps showing my last couple conquests

 

[Pervis]

First GOTM entry, and first real Monarch game. I played Adventurer because I'm a huge pansy, and Monarch barbs hit me hard in some of my 5v5 team games. Space Race victory in 1874, aimed for domination but got gunshy when I was way behind in tech and grenadiers popped up, and I was nowhere close to having them. There were only 2 wars other than mine the whole game, and my friendly friends didn't hate the non-Buddhist civs enough to war. I was however able to get them to stop trading, which slowed down the tech leaders a bit. Diplomacy was definately hard here, cept for Monte, since he's a jerk.

From my perusal of SG's and Noble/Prince experience, I decided Monte wasn't a good friend, and attacked him after founding 3 cities. I had my capitol one north on the grass/hills next to the one squre fresh lake, Osaka 1N of the gold hills that had copper nearby, and next town was up near the Iron, overlapped the 3 lowest squares with Osaka. I like starting with cows (4/2 or 3/3 grass or plains) and hill for defense but didn't know about moving farther south and wanted to start researching. I built stonehenge once stone connected, which helped out on the culture bit since I only had mysticism at the time, and didn't want to waste trees on obelisks unless needed. Went for BW and Animal Husbandry, as well as pottery to start up my cottages so my economy didn't stall after hopefully taking monte's cities. First war off, I took his 2 first towns, plus another one that was SE of my capitol that he founded whilst my army marched towards him, but stopped there as I didn't see his other towns. He had 2 I think, going by the replay.

Second monte war started up once I had Construction, as he had +40 or +60 cultural defense. I took out another 3 or 4 of his towns but he had one small one hiding south of the Incans, which were my friends. By this time Hatty was the clear leader, with a great deal of wonders and founding Christianity and Buddhism, Buddhism being the state religion of me, Saladin, Hatty, and Huayna. I didn't know if Hatty would backstab me if I went after Inca, but Hatty was 5 techs ahead of me and I wasnt' gaining, even at 40-50% science. I was actually falling behind. I was also failing at the trading game, getting beaten to techs most of the time. Only one I got ahead on was machinery. I built up infrastructure and used my workers (half were monte's, hah) to improve my lands, which were sorely neglected by my wars. I had popped a GProphet from Stonehendge early, intending to use as a religion founder, but I never got the chance. Around this time my Iron city with the grass/pigs was my best food city, so I set on two scientists and stagnated growth. I followed the "farm plains, cottage grass" philosophy, and had built National Epic in that city anyways. It had been running a priest for some time, so I had maybe 40/40/20 scientist/prophet/artist, and an artist popped.

I had just finished Machinery and was beelining for Civil Service for Saumurai, and decided to use my artist and prophet as a GA. My production wasn't great except for a few cities, so I only built a bit more infrastructure than normal, but I did however get Civil Service to finish during that time. At this point, Hatty was way ahead in points, mostly land and pop, but I feared she would race away to space without much I could do. I then pumped Samurai, and Catapults, while researching Engineering for the road movement and pikeman, as my scout saw lots of Horse Archers in Hatty's land (soon to be knights, oops). 15-20 turns later, I had three nice stacks plus a smaller fourth, with more being produced or traveling, and I decided to pull the trigger, fully expecting that Monarch AI would surprise me and kick me to the curb. Hatty had built maybe 1/3 - 1/2 of wonders, popped alot of GP's She was clearly the leader at this point in the game, although was super friendly. But she looked at me funny, and needed to die.

The war with Egypt started off on a bad note. My southernmost city, with Rice and the 2 dyes, was losing the culture war and had bad vision. I moved my stacks into Hatty's territory, but a stack of Knights and Horsearchers with 1 longbow came out from the fog and attacked my city, taking it (only had sword, catapult, healing warrior, and I think an archer there) on the same turn that they came out of the fog on. Longbow couldn't move in, however. It was a good city and more importantly part of the wall protecting my heartland and income. I dropped a stack back and took it back in 2 turns, but I became way more cautious, even more than I needed to be apparently. I took their NE city on the 4 hills, but a counterattack by Knights and a xbowman hurt me bad, taking out my 2 guarding pikeman (one with medic, one with combat 2 and formation, on a hill no less) stalling that advance as well. I decided to use both of my stacks to take their central northen city, which had both Ivories and the corn, 1S off a mountain I think. Counterattacks and suppression of invading pillagers used up some of my initial Samurai, so I had to wait while some more were travelling to take that town. It's culture was also huge and kept the north as Hatty land, making travel even more obnoxious as Knights would appear every so often and attack, generally losing but it hurt enough. Finally the middle town fell, which I then used as a staging town. A couple turns later I moved out to take the NW Egyptian town, sending a second stack to help the one that was already there but lacked enough catapults to effectively suicide and guarantee that I would take the city without losing many troops. At some point Victoria asked for my help vs Monte, who had one city left, and I said "sure". He was (-) for every civ, and my NW edge had 8 or 9 units, so no worries. Eventually I declared peace with him, and took techs, money, map, etc, as war weariness had set it without him or me doing anything. Viccy's troops were moving through India, so i knew it would be some time and then he'd be dead.

This process kept going, moving, generally having one largish stack moving, one in the process of attacking and one forming up, while a small stack would move to suport an attack that wasn't sufficient to take out and be able to defend the newly taken town from Knights. Eventually I take Thebes, the buddhist holy city, and get the +36 shrine. At this point Egypt had 4 towns left, and Grenadiers popped up. Despite my gut feeling that she was going to roll me over, I pressed on, and once the first of the 4 towns dropped I started building infrastructure (grocers, markets, banks), since I had none of these, and my research was 30%/lux 20%. I had enough units leftover to take the remaining cities I felt, and was right. I contemplated asking for techs, specifically Chemistry (I just got gunpowder), but my hatred of Egypt forced me to take the last city, and to end the unhappiness.

This is when the game deviated for me. I couldn't trade any techs, was behind at least by 5-8 from all, but I didn't pillage Egypt except for some strategically placed roads. At this point, I decided to try to get back into the tech race and went infrastructure fully. Samurai vs Rifleman/Cavalry was a no go, and maybe one more conquest before that became a reality. Gunpowder units popped up into all civs (buddhist cities were in every civ), and since nobody had gone to war they had tons of units. Slowly, my economy started moving and I started gaining on their leads. I sidetracked to democracy for the civics and to try for Taj Mahal and Statue of Liberty, but lost the race to them immensely due to my lack of a good production city. My best was producing ~35-40 hammers at this point. The gold though allowed me to go 90% or so, which helped a bit.

The rest of the game was a blur. I built infra and occassionally built some units for defense, until I was producing spaceparts and the rest of my cities started producing units for possibly last ditch defense. I tried to beeline to Internet (this was when I could research Chem), and a bit later suddenly here was Asoka finishing Apollo. I hadn't started Apollo yet, had just gotten the tech, and Asoka was still ahead tech wise. Apollo took forever, even with IW, so I was a bit startled and thought I was screwed, but started anyways. I really, really didn't improve any of my cities in a way that would help for massive projects or wonders. I had some GP around and some ready to pop, so I held out hoping a GA would help. My base research rate however was insane. I was at 90% making 50 gpt, with I thnk 1.3k+ beakers/turn (end was 2.2k) . I had really focused my improvements on Commerce/Food, and didn't spec any additional cities in production. I finished up Future Tech 1 a couple of turns before I won, and Internet I think 4-5 turns before I won as well (oops). During the GA I was well over 3k beakers I think, judging by GNP table. The last production spike was the three gorge dam being built, suddenly powering factories. I rushed it with the GE from Fusion and a whole buttload of cash (80% = ~+250), instead of spending the time building the 18+ factories, and used that time for infra + defense as my Egyptian towns still weren't up to par. I think the dam came in whilst I started building space parts too.

GNP/Production attached. Also, I built 38 Samurai. I only used these against Egypt, but had alot left.

 

[Doc TK]

Thanks Scuba, Shadow, Gato. Great stuff!

It's kinda funny to me that I felt like I was playing a pretty good game the whole way especially given all the pre-game discussion about how hard this was going to be. And yet, most of the Major Decisions in the game, I got a bunch wrong.

Religion - wrong
Aggression - not enough early, too worried about WW from war to war

At least my early IW was only partially wrong. I get partial credit right?

And why do I suddenly feel myself rooting for the barbs and AIs in other folks games?

One thing that Shadow said struck me - "I try to give reasons for why I do things, but some things may seem obvious to me, but not to others. Part of the reason this month is that so many people probably went with the same basic strategy...build units and kill everything."

I have a hard time believing it was as easy as that. Aren't there some pretty big decisions in this game even at your level? Maybe its just the "do I send out a couple Ws to hunt workers?" But, I've got to believe its more. And there are more differences than a noob like me can figure out. When you read each other's write-ups, I'm curious what you see as "hmmm that's interesting"?

 

[Sparts]

One thing that Shadow said struck me - "I try to give reasons for why I do things, but some things may seem obvious to me, but not to others. Part of the reason this month is that so many people probably went with the same basic strategy...build units and kill everything."

I have a hard time believing it was as easy as that. Aren't there some pretty big decisions in this game even at your level? Maybe its just the "do I send out a couple Ws to hunt workers?" But, I've got to believe its more. And there are more differences than a noob like me can figure out. When you read each other's write-ups, I'm curious what you see as "hmmm that's interesting"?

There are not that many 'big decisions' in this game. I guess the big difference between people used to playing on a higher difficulty level, and people for which monarch is still a challenge, probably lies in the way they set up their empire in the early stages. They have learned to do this correctly (note 'correctly', not 'in the one and only perfect way' or 'in the best way possible'), or died trying on Emperor. If the setup is solid, the rest of the game is comparatively easy, especially as it involved 'build units and kill everything'. So for learning purposes the first spoiler thread is probably beter. Note: I don't consider myself an expert player or anything, I'm still struggling often on Emperor, but with the odds stacked in my favor (Samurai, neighbors closeby) this Monarch game wasn't a big challenge.

 

[shadow2k]

Thanks Scuba, Shadow, Gato. Great stuff!

It's kinda funny to me that I felt like I was playing a pretty good game the whole way especially given all the pre-game discussion about how hard this was going to be. And yet, most of the Major Decisions in the game, I got a bunch wrong.

Religion - wrong
Aggression - not enough early, too worried about WW from war to war

At least my early IW was only partially wrong. I get partial credit right?

And why do I suddenly feel myself rooting for the barbs and AIs in other folks games?

One thing that Shadow said struck me - "I try to give reasons for why I do things, but some things may seem obvious to me, but not to others. Part of the reason this month is that so many people probably went with the same basic strategy...build units and kill everything."

I have a hard time believing it was as easy as that. Aren't there some pretty big decisions in this game even at your level? Maybe its just the "do I send out a couple Ws to hunt workers?" But, I've got to believe its more. And there are more differences than a noob like me can figure out. When you read each other's write-ups, I'm curious what you see as "hmmm that's interesting"?

Don't think of your choices as wrong, they aren't. But they need to play into your strategy. Not declaring religion in order to keep everyone happy when you plan to kill them all doesn't fit well. Building swords for offense, and then waiting until you get attacked doesn't mesh well together, Swords are meant as City Raiders. Wars are more easily won when you control the circumstances (IE: you attack them, and dictate where the battles are fought).

Personally, and I'm sure others are the same...we see a lot of decisions that seem curious to us. Take just the decision of who to kill first, and why.

I went for Hatty. Our borders were close due to how I settled. She was focused on religion (like Izzy or something), so probably weak in military. Top in score and techs. I had the most to gain from her (Glib/Parth/Oracle/two shrines).

Others that went for Monty generally say it was because he was likely to attack them anyway. Yet, because of how I settled, and how I traded, I knew he'd go for the Incas first. On top of that, I made friends with the Inca through trading, so I felt more secure with less units in the North. I also didn't want to push that way, because I'd either have to attack the Inca, or go through them, a choice I eventually had to make anyway. Monty was most likely low in score and tech, and had less wonders...so less to gain.

Hatty was not only the easier target in my case, but I had more to gain, and posed more of an overall threat (not just military wise). I didn't worry about what anyone else thought, because I planned to kill most of them anyway.

Or barbs. I don't understand how people have issues with them. I build my "settler escorts", then send them out to the city site before the settler is built. They fortify there for the added bonus and wait. This cuts down on the possibility of barbs, and I need a unit there eventually anyway. Yet I see others mention getting a city razed by barbs, or even losing to them.

I think the thing that always makes me wonder though, is the cottage spam. I don't get it. I mean, I understand it, but I see it as uneccessary...especially when you never intend to get to UniSuff + Kremlin. If you read some of the other games, I can tell you without even looking that they spammed more cottages than I did. Even just looking at the fact that I traded for Pottery should tell you something. I just don't build many cottages.

Yet, I started with zero techs, and still finished around the same general time that others on Contender did. I was in the tech lead from Alphabet on. I only used one GMerch, for upgrades, something I don't normally do...yet others mention losing wonders, sometimes on purpose, for cash. So I'm still trying to figure out what the deal is, and why I don't fall behind. I should just play a game and spam cottages, to see what happens.

 

[Doc TK]

So for learning purposes the first spoiler thread is probably beter.

Unfortunately, I didn't want to spend the time trying to figure out which questions to ask where. And I was worried cause of the rule about how far you are in the game. Being a noob, I would no doubt screw that up.

I'll definitely go back and take a look again, but I truly have had a tough time figuring out what's different in different posts. Especially cutting through stories of glory.

Shadow's quick comment on "who do you attack first" probably seems so obvious to all of you - and in hindsight it now seems obvious to me, but I read the first few posts and noticed that people were saying they attacked Monty and I did as well (albeit in a lame way cause he declared on me), so then I didn't notice that Shadow went after Hatty. Now I'm curious how others managed those relationships and who they went after. Actually a pretty good insight from Shadow. And yeah, Sparts, I am THAT MUCH a noob.

I hope that kinda answers everything for you. That's a lot of questions. Still more entertaining than sitting through commercials though.

Tivo?

Yet I see others mention getting a city razed by barbs, or even losing to them.

I'll confess to losing a city (2 warriors lost) to a single barb archer. I do the same thing in terms of having the warrior out there to keep every tile visible and then move the settler to it. But, I stupidly put the warrior into the city only to have a barb magically appear between my cultural border and Egypt. At least I learned from that.

I think the thing that always makes me wonder though, is the cottage spam. I don't get it. I mean, I understand it, but I see it as uneccessary...especially when you never intend to get to UniSuff + Kremlin. If you read some of the other games, I can tell you without even looking that they spammed more cottages than I did. Even just looking at the fact that I traded for Pottery should tell you something. I just don't build many cottages.

Very interesting. I always create a fair amount of cottages. I feel like I'm totally losing the tech race with it. I'll have to try a couple games creating less cotts. But, I remember doing a game where I went early Alpha skipping Pottery and never could keep my tech rate up. I probably wasn't aggressive enough.

Don't think of your choices as wrong, they aren't. But they need to play into your strategy.

Sounds like the kind of thing I would say back when I was teaching to try to make a really lame comment by a student sound okay. Nah, they were pretty much wrong. But, even more wrong was playing what I would term a "standard balanced" strategy. I kinda play most games the same way. It's just now dawning on me that I need to (a) actually have a strategy and (b) go for it. Wow, what a concept.

 

[Dadrick]

Adventurer, 1922 loss by conquest.

This was my first game at Monarch, and my first GoTM. Great fun

I planted my flag 2 spaces north of the starting point, when I uncovered the marble. Figured with the cows in the the intial grid I would have a good basis for production and growth. Then then the gremlins of ill-luck graced my game. 3 Villages popped - all hostile lost starting warrior, 2nd warrior and scout. I did get 2nd and 3rd cities built - barbs captured 2nd (Hatty later took it) and they pillaged the 3rd one, each lasted just long enough to grow to pop=2.

I figured I go into holding pattern, while I tired to get iron working. Problem was Hatty had the resources. So while I waited I was able to build the Parthanon. The culture and GP (4 Great Artists), I added National Epic later, kept me in the game until 1922AD!! I was able to culturally push Hatty off the NW iron in 1867AD to begin my first Samurai.

I felt a bit like the Swiss a little island nation in the middle of industrial giants. I didn't get into a war until Monty invaded in 1919. 3 short turns later game over. Vicky, Hattie and HC were all finished the SS and need Space Elevator to win. I watched tanks, artillery, and SAM Infantry skirt my borders like I was the plague.

It got to the point I just wanted to how long I could hang on. I that regard I was a winner

 

[ScubaRoo]

I'll definitely go back and take a look again, but I truly have had a tough time figuring out what's different in different posts. Especially cutting through stories of glory.

One of the huge benefits of the GOTM is being able to play the game through and comparing your outcomes with others of different skills and strategies. If you feel you've had a rough ride then just pick it up and run it through again (once you've submitted yout first game, of course ). Try a game without spamming cottages early on - build farms for growth instead. Play it going all-out for war and stealing workers. Pick up on a strategy that someone else has made work and see if you can get better results.

Not suggesting that you do the whole thing, but the first spoiler gives some great comparisons if you just play up to 1AD each time. Always going to be difficult to get accurate comparisons but your science rate, position on the table, military strength, tech rate etc should give you a feel of how well you're getting on.

For the real quick-start training runs just go to 2000BC or 1500BC - at Epic you still get a fair few turns and get to try out different strategies.

Once the Quick-Start GOTM gets up and running you'll be able to do this alongside everyone else and get some more detailed comparisons. Soon enough you'll be up there with the best.

Hope this helps.

 

[The-Hawk]

Just submitted my game. Played Contender.

Took DaveMcW's advice in the pre-game thread and decided not to try for my first Culture win with this GOTM setup. But, I still wanted to try something new, so I went for my first conquest win instead ... I usually cross the domination limit without finishing off the AI's.

Got my conquest victory in 1590 AD.

I'm sure one of the better players will beat this by 200 years , but for me a pretty fast game. Base score was 3891. I'm a little confused about the final score. When the game ended, I wrote down 53726, but when I submitted to GOTM, the confirmation said 75215.

I haven't made an entry into the spoiler 1 thread yet, I had kind of gotten engrossed in the game and played it straight through. I'll make one in the next day or so, then come back here and finish the story.

Great fun, thanks to the GOTM staff as always.

 

[aviator99_uk]

I didn't like the feel of this right from the start.

I am a warmongerer but have never understood how to play with Tockagawa and find it dificult to play maps like inland sea.

Briefly: Slow start, 3 citys founded, Iron working and alpha, producing swordsmen, and that was the high point.

Decided to hit monte before he hit me took 4 citys including his capital to give me 7 citys (same as Egypt and Inca) but blew my economy into the stone age, 20% tech. Had no religion or happy resources anywhere so had lots of red citizens couldn't get a city over 4 without black smoke.

Decided to war with Hatty to see if I could get tech by peace treaty, took one of her citys but she wasn't going to give up tech for peace and Monty decided to hit me so I took peace with Hatty and went back to Monty took another 3 of his citys (raized 1) and managed to get CofL from him for peace, he's got 1 city left and he's still 3 techs up on me, everyone else is 2 ROWS of techs up on me.

Inca declared war and I decided it just wasn't worth the candle.

Didn't like the map, didn't like the civ, didn't like the neighbours, didn't get close.

Retired AD1070 Score 1046 10 citys 70% research but so far behind in tech that it just wasn't fun any more, and the house of cards was going to fall. Inca was starting to feed me my Butt, and Hatty was culture bombing me.

Barbs were a constant pain up to the point at which the AI had spammed settlers into all the minute nooks and crannies arround my spread out and disjointed empire.

Played contender because didn't see that the extras for adventurer were worth didly.

Well done to those that won, just wish for a scenario which is more my style next.

 

[Duelingground]

For those who read my first spoiler write-up, the plan changed.

After prepping to take out Monty, I managed to convince Hatty and Vicky to join in the fun, and quickly took 3 of his cities(not the capitol), while a couple of Egyptian troops ransacked the Aztec lands. I decided to keep all 3, and after checking the defensive bonuses on the closest 2 remaining cities, decided to make peace, and consolidate my gains while waiting for Cats and Samurai.

During this time, a couple of barb cities popped up on the western edge of the map, and I let them grow a bit before capturing them with a couple of swordsmen. Hatty filled in the gaps between our borders, and I built a couple of cities to even things out, one to the west of the ivory, and one in the northwest corner, giving me 4 cities along the western edge, my three original ones, and the three I've captured.

I've built quite the army of workers by now, mostly paired, and they stay busy. I don't automate. I followed a very basic plan of improvement, building cottages on all grassland, farms on plains, windmills on grassland hills, and mines on plains/desert hills, as well as improving any resources as their techs become available. Pretty much, I only deviated from this to spread irrigation.

Once I had a few Samurai, and a handful of catapults, I added them to my remaining swords and axes from the first war, and after talking everyone but Saladin into joining the fun, took out Monty, capturing 3 more cities, and totally ruining his day. It was a tougher fight than I'd planned on, leaving my forces in bad shape, maybe 12-15 units total. Asoka was a big help here, though Vicky sent about 30 troops, it was over before she got plugged in properly.

Asoka took advantage of the conflict to grab the eastern Aztec lands, nearly cutting me off from the Inca. I also built a couple of cities near the northern edge of the map, for that wee bit of added land and population. This would be the end of my expansion, leaving me with a total of 14 cities.

At this point, every one was at least pleased with me, and Vicky and Hatty were friendly. Asoka shortly joined them, after a trade or two. Saladin had a slight problem with me for hanging out with Vicky, some sort of religious disagreement, and Huayna always looked at me kind of funny, but they remained pleased the rest of the game.

So, I'm starting to think, maybe Lennon was right, and decide to give peace a chance.

I never did adopt a religion, instead switching to freestyle as soon as it was possible, so never got the heathen tag. Tech trading kept me right in line with the rest of the leaders, which alternated between Saladin and Hatty for quite a while, until the Incas took the lead, which I shortly took from them. I never turned down a request, but for one. Hatty asked me to convert, but with a +15 modifier, I felt safe in staying pagan.

Postwar, I concentrated on gearing up my cities, and set my research to Liberalism. After beating the AIs to the juicy free tech, I headed straight for Mass Media. Research level got as low as 50%, but with trading techs, I was never close to going lower, usually sitting on at least a grand or so in cash.

Really, it was all pretty smooth sailing from there on, mainly ordering workers around, and queuing up banks and whatnot. When I took or built a city, I usually chopped out a library, followed by a courthouse, then a barracks. After that it was either a science or cash building, depending on what was available. I did build a couple of national wonders, the Heroic Epic(paranoid about Hatty) and the Forbidden Palace. Popped a few great people, mostly scientists, and each built an academy, the one engineer I got came on the last turn. Built very little military after the early wars, and had maybe 25-30 troops scattered around at the end.

As you may have gathered by now, the one wonder I did build was the UN, in around 1700. I had 8 settlers in place upon learning Mass Media, stationed throughout the forests I'd left around the former Aztec capitol. Their chopping provided about half of the necessary shields, and in an amazingly serendipitous cap to a most shiny happy game, Hatty offered me 2700 gold for Mass Media. Coupled with my then current funds I had more than enough to goldrush my way to victory, and proceeded to do just that. The vote wasn't even close, with all my friends agreeing that I'd make a most excellent world leader, while Saladin and Huayna sulked in the corner.


Contender - Diplomatic Victory 1710

Score was around 32k.

This was my first win on Monarch, after several losses during test play, so I'm mostly happy with it, though realizing I got lucky with the early Metal Casting from the goody hut. But, I did overcome the loss of my 3rd city, which had been a point of no return in my test games.

Thanks to anyone reading this, and especially thanks again to the staff for an enjoyable game. Looking forward to next month!

 

[kingjoshi]

I'll do a proper post later.

1335AD, Domination. The game said score of ~97K, however, the GOTM script says 136322. I'll take it...

Domination victory is a pain. You have so many cities and workers to control. I lacked any focus in organizing them. I'd tell workers to build watermills but let that particular city concentrate on population growth. Or I'd build many improvements in a city of size 4 when many other cities could use help. I just didn't care anymore.

Just keep building samurais and throw them at other civs and you win. They're almost as advantageous as Praetorians. I had like 70 at the end of the game. I never geared the game to maxmize score and stopped worrying about techs after engineering. So a few cities built Samurais (or other units to "protect" a city) and the rest didn't matter (except a GP farm, which was also my "science" city).

EDIT: played contender

 

[Fifteenpiece]

Regular class (contender?), win in 1855 space, score in low 40ks?

First GOTM and only second win on Monarch also first inland sea game.

Basically:

- axemen rushed Monty early secured border to Incas
- obtained 3 barb cities to NW, W and SW of capital
- obtained judaism from monty and infected Incans to keep that front stable
- Built samural rush, made 10x demands on hatty and goaded her into attack (that with religous delta and my pulling back troops from southern city worked fairly well..dumbo AI).

Killed her SOD with mass cat/samurai rush. Pushed her back 3ish cities to South then made a bonehead mistake: I was messing around with diplomacy settings and accidently offered her peace WITH Civil service (oh the cusin' that occurred in my room was vile to behold). Basically I thought I had hit esape but game registered as "enter" (never mind why i was screwin aroud with it).

This cost me my samurai rush and unfortunately in 10 turns allowed Hatty a macemen counter. Took me many more turns to pound her down and this cost me enough initaive that Saladin and Vicky had picked up a great deal of steam in research. I had secured all the way to SW cormer of map but generally felt less than secure about a domination win at this point. Decidec settle in and take space win.

Also had built great library and was able to build about 4 academies over time.

Lessons learned:
- Never mess around when playing a "real" game
- an early dead Monty is a good Monty
- If you get Communism early pound out the Kremlin. I was in mid war and distrtacted and "assumed" I'd get it first. Wrong. Ol' Sally must of had an Engineer in reserve and he beat me by 1 turn. This killed any late domination ideas I had post my Hattyv error.

All in all a fun game and I am learning. Japanese are alot of fun to play and I am grateful for all the good info I have learned on this board over last coupel months, I can definately see my game improving.