GOTM 08 - first spoiler

[DaviddesJ]

No, you can't be serious. It is all the same just a few turns later.

There is this magical CS gambit research path, - Mysticism, Polytheism, Priesthood, Writing, CoL, CS (Oracle). I don't know why and what is it exactly that following this particular path is doing to the AI but it just is working.

If it's so easy, why didn't you do it, either? According to your own spoiler, you didn't build Oracle until 1400 BC, which was lucky to work (many players had the AI build Oracle sooner), and presumably it would have delayed you by several turns if you had had to research Mining as well.

 

[akots]

... which was lucky to work (many players had the AI build Oracle sooner), and presumably it would have delayed you by several turns if you had had to research Mining as well.

Well, Mining would have delayed it probably by 1 turn since you can research it after Library had been built and I think I've built Oracle 2 turns after discovering CoL, so no loss of time here. I don't think I even had a worker before starting to work on Library. IIRC, I've squeezed 1-turn research on Wheel somewhere around this very time to hook up gold (already running 2 scientists) and Wheel is a non-mandatory tech here for the gambit. Also, again IIRC, I revolted to Hinduism which again wasted another turn. So, it could have been done at 1600BC if I were a better player which I am not and hence humbly playing Contender.

Again, I don't know what is going on with the AI, it seems like some kind of "magic" or whatever you can call it but this is always working for the Monarch level with more or less decent start. Of course, not building Stonehenge greatly helps. Apparently all AIs are going after it and if you build it, they indeed switch to Oracle. Or may be something else, I just have no idea what it is.

 

[Mutineer]

you need mining to mine gold, you know. With out gold you will not have time even to research writing.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Well, Mining would have delayed it probably by 1 turn since you can research it after Library had been built and I think I've built Oracle 2 turns after discovering CoL, so no loss of time here. I don't think I even had a worker before starting to work on Library.

OK, I'm surprised by this. I thought you were working the gold mine significantly earlier. It seems that you're saying the start basically didn't use the gold at all (i.e., the value of the gold mostly comes after the slingshot, when it's multiplied by Bureaucracy and the early Academy). That makes sense, but I'm quite surprised that researching without mining the gold is faster than building the mine.

I don't enjoy playing the fast CS slingshot, so I probably wouldn't do it even if it works.

 

[DaviddesJ]

you need mining to mine gold, you know. With out gold you will not have time even to research writing.

That's what I thought, too. But akots is claiming that he didn't even build a worker before researching Writing; he did all of his early research without using the gold.

(It's got to be an exaggeration to claim he can research Mining in 1 turn, though!)

 

[akots]

Indeed, I've mined gold when already researching CoL and it greatly helped then.

That's what I thought, too. But akots is claiming that he didn't even build a worker before researching Writing; he did all of his early research without using the gold. ...

I can check with autosaves, but IIRC my intial builds were workboat, warrior (for MP), workboat, scout or warrior and only then worker probably around size 4 or 5 already.

Of course, i don't know exactly about mining since I did not have to research it. I've researched Wheel already with mined gold and it were 1 turn or slightly more. It can show you 2 turns but most of the second turn goes into overflow which is actually nice.

... I don't enjoy playing the fast CS slingshot, so I probably wouldn't do it even if it works.

Yes, it is the easy path for the lazy. Seriously. In the end it is not that important, it just eases the pain of early decisions and makes it more straightforward. It fells good to have some kind of a plan for the first turns. Otherwise, I feel kinda lost and helpless. It is like a Philo gambit in Civ3.

 

[drkodos]

I can check with autosaves, but IIRC my intial builds were workboat, warrior (for MP), workboat, scout or warrior and only then worker probably around size 4 or 5 already.

Forgive my confusion. It has been said I am not a bright man, and I agree with those that say it. Probably about 15 watts on a good evening.

However:

If you did not research Fishing, but went with Animal Husbandry instead, how did you manage to build a workboat first?

How did you work those pigs for 6 food if you did not build a worker until you were pop 4 or 5?

What part of this am I missing here?

 

[DaviddesJ]

If you did not research Fishing, but went with Animal Husbandry instead, how did you manage to build a workboat first?

How did you work those pigs for 6 food if you did not build a worker until you were pop 4 or 5?

What he says is he did research Fishing first, and put off AH until after CS. See #18 in this thread.

It seems to me it would take a long time to do everything, with the fish as the only improved tile. But I'll have to try it.

 

[drkodos]

What he says is he did research Fishing first, and put off AH until after CS. See #18 in this thread.

It seems to me it would take a long time to do everything, with the fish as the only improved tile. But I'll have to try it.

Thanks for the correction.


I told you I was easily confused! My brain is lame. I confused some of his posts with another person's.

Apologies for my confusion.

 

[Eqqman]

@Ribannah: How did you get by with what looks like just 1 Warrior for so long? Wasn't there any danger of Barbarian pillaging?

 

[akots]

... What part of this am I missing here?

I've played it some time ago and am a lazy and rather messy person so here is what I've got from a few autosaves and autolog:


Turn 0, 4000BC: Berlin has been founded. Working forest NE, building scout.

Turn 5, 3800BC: You have discovered Fishing! Working pigs unimproved, building workboat.

Turn 13, 3480BC: You have discovered Mysticism!

Turn 25, 3000BC: Hinduism has been founded in Berlin!You have discovered Polytheism!
Fishing net in place, building warrior, scout somewhere killed by barbarians. Sometimes around that built worker, probably around turn 28.

Turn 32, 2720BC: You have discovered Priesthood!
Start prebuilding Oracle and second workboat on the way.

Turn 34, 2640BC: Washington adopts Slavery!
Around turn 38-39 finished mining gold hill saving about 2-3 turns on Writing. Worker went to mine another hill.

Turn 43, 2280BC: You have discovered Writing!

Turn 45, 2200BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Bismark converts to Hinduism!

Turn 50, 2000BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 63, 1480BC: Confucianism has been founded in Berlin!
You have discovered Code of Laws!

Turn 64, 1440BC: Bismark has completed The Oracle!

Turn 65, 1400BC: You have discovered Civil Service! Bismark adopts Bureaucracy! Bismark adopts Caste System!

Turn 67, 1320BC: Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!

Turn 69, 1240BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!

Turn 71, 1160BC: You have discovered The Wheel!

Turn 74, 1040BC: The Pyramids has been built in a far away land!

Turn 76, 975BC: Hamburg has been founded.

Turn 79, 900BC: Confucianism has spread in Hamburg. Bismark converts to Confucianism!

Turn 82, 825BC: Merit Ptah has been born in Berlin! Washington converts to Hinduism!

Turn 83, 800BC: You have discovered Alphabet!

Turn 84, 775BC: You have discovered Meditation! You have discovered Agriculture! You have discovered Pottery! You have discovered Sailing! You have discovered Animal Husbandry!

Turn 88, 675BC: Munich has been founded.

Turn 89, 650BC: You have discovered Literature!

Turn 90, 625BC: You have discovered Masonry!

Turn 93, 550BC: The Great Lighthouse has been built in a far away land!

Turn 96, 475BC: You have discovered Mathematics!

Turn 97, 450BC: You have discovered Archery! You have discovered Iron Working!

Turn 101, 350BC: Christianity has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 102, 325BC: Bismark has completed The Great Library!

Turn 104, 275BC: You have discovered Construction!

So, first, indeed, the worker helped a bit with gold to speed up Writing a few turns. Second, Wheel had been indeed discovered after CS was taken and that is why is took only 1 turn.

It seems that playing without mining was indeed a considerable additional challenge since it had to be researched before Writing. As soon as I will finish, I will try it with the Predator start without techs.

 

[Nares]

@Ribannah: How did you get by with what looks like just 1 Warrior for so long? Wasn't there any danger of Barbarian pillaging?

Not at all, Eqqman.

My own hand-built test map had very little land to the NW, not much to the NE, and by far the most land to the SE. This was based entirely on what could be seen from the initial screenshot. There was simply no way to accuratly gauge what would be hidden by the fog.

As the map actually played out, it seems the starting screen shot was relatively revealing. My biggest surprise was the third mountain somewhere SE of Berlin, which had been hidden by a single tile of fog in the screenshot.

There were perhaps 5-10 more tiles to the NW than I could map, but this could be anticipated via the blue circle suggestion. There were roughly the same number of tiles to the NE, plus the land bridge. Again, the former could be anticipated via the blue circle, though the latter was a minor rogue element. Finally, it was readily apparent that the greatest concentration of land would be to the SE, as that was the area that had the most visible land tiles in the screenshot. The blue circle in the SE was a bit of a red-herring.

In none of my test games, not even the ones in which I embedded the starting screenshot into a larger landmass, did I encounter much, if any, Barbarian problems. In the vast majority of them, and as well in the actual playing of the GoTM save, I had zero Barbarians intrude until after the slingshot, at which point I was poised to field Axemen against them.

Perhaps I was lucky, as the landmass was certainly far larger than I would have expected, though part of me wants to believe that the map was listed as High water levels, but later revealed to be Low water levels. More likely, I made the mistake of not paying enough attention. It seems I was lucky in that my run at The Oracle encountered no problems.

The worst I encountered were some roaming Barbarians on the NE landbridge and to the SE. In neither case did the Barbarian in question ever attempt to make its way into my borders.

 

[Thrallia]

I think it was probably luck that you had no barb problems if you only had one warrior...I lost a city to barbs soon after 1900BC, and that city was defended by an archer.

 

[Ribannah]

Thanks for all the comments, people!

So why didn't you play at Challenger where the game is at least somewhat more difficult?

Well, first of all, almost nobody plays at challenger. What I could have done though, and probably will in the next game, is to simply ignore the CS slingshot. That would make things a little more challenging at Monarch. This time I was just interested in seeing if I could pull it off. At challenger I would have failed, but for all other opening strategies the difference with contender is small.

Indeed, that much is true and it is not a great challenge. On the other hand, the map script and logistics is very challenging. And that actually makes the race for Domination quite interesting wtih this GOTM. Of course, there is little doubt, it is quite possible to win and easily indeed from this position. But the question is how rapidly compared to others you can accomplish that task.

Most of the challenge in these lower difficulty games is in finding out how fast you can convert that lead into a victory. This map provides its own unique challenges in that respect. Depending on the victory you choose, there are likely to be many crucial decisions left that could greatly affect the speed with which you finish. I, for one, have never attempted a conquest victory on an archipilego map.

I disagree about the map. Because of the low water there is nothing challenging about it and domination is just a matter of time. To do things efficiently, however, costs a lot of real-life time so in the end it becomes a measure of how much free time I have (not enough), rather than a measure of skill (which is surely also lacking since I rarely have continued a game after the opening).

You could have just research Alphabet right after CS instead and traded all this plus much more from the AI saving tons and tons of beakers and time. It would have required the second fishing boat for scouting though, so I guess fishing still has to go first prior to Animal Husbandry in this case.

Hardly. I would have had Bronze Working and Sailing later, which costs me more than the beakers saved, and it is not likely that the AI will trade for Polyheism, Monotheism and Monarchy, which I needed. Also, I'd rather save my limited amount of tech trades with the AI for more expensive techs later on. At this point building is lagging behind tech anyway, all cities and Workers have plenty to do.
At 1ad the AI still has little to offer. The first tech I want from the AI will be The Calendar and that one not too fast because I have Stonehenge and I don't need the luxuries asap. The only other tech they're likely to offer anytime soon is Horseback Riding which does not interest me much. Now, if I were contemplating gifting all my techs to the AI, I could have had all contacts quickly enough after the slingshot by building Work Boats instead of Stonehenge.

And those of us for whom Monarch is anything but a "lower difficulty game" would just love to read how you do just that!

You would if the AI were able to put up any resistance, but lacking that going for domination would make a boring tale. I can tell you without doing it, too: all cities build granary, forge, and then settlers/workers or boats/military depending on the food/hammer situation, and swarm out. No techs needed beyond Construction but they will still come.

How did you get by with what looks like just 1 Warrior for so long? Wasn't there any danger of Barbarian pillaging?

Actually I built a second Warrior before the Library. It managed to kill the only barb unit that showed up, shortly before the slingshot. The Americans constantly patrolled near our patch with 1-2 Archers which kept the barbs from emerging in higher numbers, and I had my second Warrior and Scout working with them in order to keep many tiles visible between the two of us.

 

[Ribannah]

Thanks for all the comments, people!

So why didn't you play at Challenger where the game is at least somewhat more difficult?

Well, first of all, almost nobody plays at challenger. What I could have done though, and probably will in the next game, is to simply ignore the CS slingshot. That would make things a little more challenging at Monarch. This time I was just interested in seeing if I could pull it off. At challenger I would have failed, but for all other opening strategies the difference with contender is small.

Indeed, that much is true and it is not a great challenge. On the other hand, the map script and logistics is very challenging. And that actually makes the race for Domination quite interesting wtih this GOTM. Of course, there is little doubt, it is quite possible to win and easily indeed from this position. But the question is how rapidly compared to others you can accomplish that task.

Most of the challenge in these lower difficulty games is in finding out how fast you can convert that lead into a victory. This map provides its own unique challenges in that respect. Depending on the victory you choose, there are likely to be many crucial decisions left that could greatly affect the speed with which you finish. I, for one, have never attempted a conquest victory on an archipilego map.

I disagree about the map. Because of the low water there is nothing challenging about it and domination is just a matter of time. To do things efficiently, however, costs a lot of real-life time so in the end it becomes a measure of how much free time I have (not enough), rather than a measure of skill.

You could have just research Alphabet right after CS instead and traded all this plus much more from the AI saving tons and tons of beakers and time. It would have required the second fishing boat for scouting though, so I guess fishing still has to go first prior to Animal Husbandry in this case.

Hardly. I would have had Bronze Working and Sailing later, which costs me more than the beakers saved, and it is not likely that the AI will trade for Polyheism, Monotheism and Monarchy, which I needed. Also, I'd rather save my limited amount of tech trades with the AI for more expensive techs later on. At this point building is lagging behind tech anyway, all cities and Workers have plenty to do.
At 1ad the AI still has little to offer. The first tech I want from the AI will be The Calendar and that one not too fast because I have Stonehenge and I don't need the luxuries asap. The only other tech they're likely to offer anytime soon is Horseback Riding which does not interest me much. Now, if I were contemplating gifting all my techs to the AI, I could have all contacts quickly enough after the slingshot by building Work Boats instead of Stonehenge.

And those of us for whom Monarch is anything but a "lower difficulty game" would just love to read how you do just that!

You would if the AI were able to put up any resistance, but lacking that going for domination would make a boring tale. I can tell you without doing it, too: all cities build granary, forge, and then settlers/workers or boats/military depending on the food/hammer situation, and swarm out. No techs needed beyond Construction but they will still come.

How did you get by with what looks like just 1 Warrior for so long? Wasn't there any danger of Barbarian pillaging?

Actually I built a second Warrior before the Oracle. It managed to kill the only barb unit that showed up, shortly before the slingshot. The Americans constantly patrolled near our patch with 1-2 Archers which kept the barbs from emerging in higher numbers, and I had my second Warrior and Scout working with them in order to keep many tiles visible between the two of us.

 

[Ribannah]

Of course, i don't know exactly about mining since I did not have to research it. I've researched Wheel already with mined gold and it were 1 turn or slightly more. It can show you 2 turns but most of the second turn goes into overflow which is actually nice.

The difference will be several turns because while you're researching Mining you can't work the mine yet.

It is like a Philo gambit in Civ3.

The slingshot indeed seems as overpowered in Civ4 as it was in Civ3.

 

[Don Vito]

Contender


1600bc ORACLE

In 750bc Berlin completed the Great Lighthouse

and completed a.o. the Colossus. In 1AD we are far ahead in every respect and I will probably not continue this game any further.

You were luckyu that you managed the CS sling shot, in my game AI built the Oracle in 1840 BC ! Never seen it built so early at Monarch.
Altough i saw 2 other people in this thread also reporting the Oracle been built by AI at 1840 bc and 1800 bc.

Also in my game the AI's built the Colossus and Great Lighthouse both just before 1000 bc, so i had very bad luck with the AI build speed compared to some.

 

[Ribannah]

Did you by chance build Stonehenge early? That would induce more AI's to opt for the Oracle.

Btw, I just checked what happens if you skip The Wheel.
Everything arrives one turn earlier, i.e. the slingshot in 1640bc, but of course that won't compensate for the missing tech, pop point and roads.

If you go Fishing -> The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing, the slingshot comes in 1480bc thanks to a hamlet on the pig. That appeared to be just in time in my try. But you have no Academy yet.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Well, first of all, almost nobody plays at challenger.

That's not much of a reason. What difference does it make what other people do? Especially if you aren't even going to finish the game.

And, if not many people play Challenger, the only way to change that is to start.

 

[akots]

...
I can tell you without doing it, too: all cities build granary, forge, and then settlers/workers or boats/military depending on the food/hammer situation, and swarm out. No techs needed beyond Construction but they will still come.
...

Do not want to sound spoilerish but ...Moderator Action: ... you did. Rest of your post deleted.