GOTM 08 - first spoiler

[Ribannah]

I can only tell that it is straightforward nonetheless.

By the way, I ran some more tests and now it seems to me that your tech path could have been used better. What you need to do is to build your Worker at size 2. That will be soon enough for the gold while not costing too many turns on building the Worker. I get Priesthood 1 turn before you and Writing 3 turns.

That way with Fishing -> Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Writing -> Code of Laws
you can get the slingshot in 1600bc as well. Compared to my game you'll lack pasture and roads, a second Warrior, two techs and an early Academy, but you get to found Hinduism which also saves you a turn on conversion.

So my initial statement needs to be amended, but I still prefer the Animal Husbandry path.

 

[Jove]

1840, yikes, that's dang early for the AI to build the Oracle. In my game was built by the AI in 1640BC, and no, I didn't go for Stonehenge. Not sure why it was so early, maybe a lucky AI hut-pop?

 

[Don Vito]

Did you by chance build Stonehenge early? That would induce more AI's to opt for the Oracle.

No, i didnt I did build the stonehenge around 1200 BC, after the AI had already built the Oracle in 1840 bc.

 

[pigswill]

It seems like there are more efficient ways of beelining CS slingshot than I used so that's useful to learn. Despite that it still appears that AI's completion date for Oracle is somewhat random making the slingshot a gamble regardless of optimum play.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Is it possible to set up the game (without a special mod) so that certain players are blocked from building certain wonders?

It occurs to me that preventing the human player from building (some) early wonders, especially the Oracle, could be a good option for "Challenger" games at the lower difficulty levels (below Emperor).

 

[Murky]

Is it possible to set up the game (without a special mod) so that certain players are blocked from building certain wonders?

It occurs to me that preventing the human player from building (some) early wonders, especially the Oracle, could be a good option for "Challenger" games at the lower difficulty levels (below Emperor).

They could just make it a rule for that specific game I suppose but that may be going a bit too far. Challenger is plenty challenging just by removing techs/resources that are available on Contender.

 

[cas]

I just resumed playing Civ4 after a long hiatus. Practiced on GOTM-7 but I still made some stupid mistakes on this game. Monarch is right at my skill level. I need to take better notes for these writeups.

Tech path to 0AD: AH->BW->Fish->Wheel->Myst->Poly->Priest->Pottery->Writing->Alpha->Literature (Theocracy by GProphet in 100bc)

Ignored the early religions and was going for Oracle/MetalCasting sling...but the AI built the Oracle in 1720BC. From what I'm reading, my completion of Stonehenge in 1920BC contributed to that. Lesson learned. Once I saw the marble and lost Oracle, I shifted toward Literature for the GLibrary which I completed in 200bc.

My initial builds were:
worker-> mix of warrior/workboat/settler/warrior/Stonehenge and a couple more settler/warrior/worker combos. Then axes to go after Washington. I wanted to expand quick, so I used chop/slavery A LOT. I had 5 cities by 0AD (4 mine, one captured) and another settler sitting there waiting since my economy was in shambles. Also sent a second workboat out to explore early, but only managed to meet three other civs by 0AD (900bc, 450bc, and 150bc).

I declared war on Washington in 500bc since he was expanding south and starting to get too powerful & advanced for my comfort. Went after his southern cities with 5-6 axes. Luckily he did not have/connect iron or copper so I was facing archers.

My worst mistake was expanding too much too early without building cottages. My economy was completely crippled and took forever to recover. I also tried to do everything (expand/explore/wonders/research/war) rather than focusing on 1-2 strategies. Thankfully, Monarch is forgiving so I was able to recover and win in the end.

cas

 

[DaviddesJ]

They could just make it a rule for that specific game I suppose but that may be going a bit too far. Challenger is plenty challenging just by removing techs/resources that are available on Contender.

I think no one but me has admitted to playing the Challenger start yet (but I haven't been paying close attention). I don't think it makes the game significantly more challenging---most anyone who can win easily from the Contender start can probably also win easily from the Challenger start. It just slows things down at the beginning so the Challenger players will be on a slower pace than the Contender players.

 

[WarFalcon]

By 500 AD...

I founded Confucianism and Christianity

Built Oracle, Chichen Itza, Sistine Chapel, Parthenon, and Hanging Gardens

Control of starting island extends from end to end, but not up the trunk area that leads to Washington's core cities. Will war Washington soon, but he isn't advanced enough for me to need to do it until I have a comfortable force of maces\catas.

 

[Mutineer]

Is it possible to set up the game (without a special mod) so that certain players are blocked from building certain wonders?

It occurs to me that preventing the human player from building (some) early wonders, especially the Oracle, could be a good option for "Challenger" games at the lower difficulty levels (below Emperor).

Actially on this map Lighhouse are supperior to Oracle and lead to faster tech then Oracle, even faster then people who manage to achieve CS slingshot.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Actially on this map Lighhouse are supperior to Oracle and lead to faster tech then Oracle, even faster then people who manage to achieve CS slingshot.

I think if you get the CS slingshot, it's easy to build the Great Lighthouse too. Admittedly, I haven't tried it myself, but see Ribannah's game, godotnut, etc.

 

[Mutineer]

You can build it, but when you will get to use it?
Idea of Greate Ligthhouse/Calendar/Currency tech like I described in my spoiler consist in Infinit city spawn, exploration and fast calendar resource utilisation.
With open borders to everybody every just created city give you 8 commerce just from trade routes. If you build SC slingshot you do it in expence of setler/worker/defence production/worker tech. It take a some time to compencate for that just form one city, even if it is with 50% bonus.
if you stick Ligthhouse there you delay yourself even more.
Moderator Action: Deleted. Spoiler limit is 500 AD

 

[malekithe]

It take a some time to compencate for that just form one city, even if it is with 50% bonus.

To be fair, I had 2 cities well before I completed my CS slingshot and could have easily settled a third within 8-10 turns (I opted to gear up for war instead). I also had two axemen, a spearman, and plenty of warriors keeping the fog at bay. There wasn't really much of a sacrifice.

 

[Don Vito]

Is it possible to set up the game (without a special mod) so that certain players are blocked from building certain wonders?

It occurs to me that preventing the human player from building (some) early wonders, especially the Oracle, could be a good option for "Challenger" games at the lower difficulty levels (below Emperor).

This would be an extremely good idea ! We would see and LEARN other strategies too besides the CS slingshot, because the big time players would be forced to play some other strategy too...

Nowdays it is boring to read the spoilers and only learn how the SLINGSHOT is once again completed one turn faster than before

 

[Obormot]

I think that CS slingshot is a liittle bit overrated. Ay least I think that in this game it is suboptimal. I have rolled quite a few maps with similar settings before the game and none of them required Astronomy to win, this means that the bottleneck for a fast domination won't be resaerch, but production. So the key is focusing on fast expansion and learning all the worker techs needed. The Oracle itself is cheap, especially for an industrious civ, but racing to get CoL on time costs too much IMO. I want to build settlers, I don't want an early academy in this game. So I decided to use a strategy similar to what godotnut used. Cheap forges (with gold and gems!), granaries and poprushing bug combined together are extremely powerfull. Great Lightihose and Colossus are great for domination and both quite cheap. Also both give great merchat points, if i build them in one city I can get a merchant/engineer(forge) that can lightbulb guilds. With cats and knight I can rule the world.

Now, if you analise the tech tree carefully and play around with the GP lightbulb spreadsheet you can see that even if Astronomy is needed (and it may be so even even if it is rare with such settings, after all we didn't have such a game since GOTM1), the CS slinshot is not that great. Yes, it does give you a lot of beakers, but learning CS unlocks Paper, Education and Printing Press, and these 3 techs are prefered over Astronomy be a great scientist. You'll have less beaker output without CS, but you can shorten your path significantly by farmings GS (you can also take Optics and Compass for free if you have a nice GS farm).

So I assumed that Astronomy and fast research is not needed, but if it turns out othervice, I have a backup plan of farming GS and taking those techs for free. The marble and the industrial trait is nice for this since I can build TGL and NE dirt cheap. All I need to make this plan work when the time comes is stay away from meditation (unlocks Philosophy), Theocracy (unlocks Paper) and CS.

PS: These Oracle dates are insane! I built mine around 1400BC and thought it was perfectly safe. I never seen the AI build it before 1200BC and only a one or two times before 1000BC on monarch. Guess it is the effect of archipelago maps, though in my game I didn't experience and wonder craziness from AI. Anyway, it only make such approach even stronger, It is nice to get MC with Oracle, but you don't loose anything if you fail. The next games will hopefully be at Emperor and Immortal levels (and maybe even Deity after that). I don't think many people will try a direct CS slingshot then.

 

[Ribannah]

You forget that bureaucracy also gives the capital a 50% hammer bonus, which is very nice for building the Great Lighthouse, the Colossus and those military units fast (and they'll be macemen!) and spitting out settlers. Also, on this map it seems that nobody plays for domination.

 

[DaviddesJ]

The next games will hopefully be at Emperor and Immortal levels (and maybe even Deity after that). I don't think many people will try a direct CS slingshot then.

As I said, I think wonder restriction (for Challenger) would only make sense below Emperor. At Emperor, people can try wonder strategies if they like, but they are not so dominant. At Monarch or Prince, I think it would lead to a more interesting variety of games, as Don Vito says.

Alternatively, the Challenger start could just be edited to replace the terrain around our capital with resourceless tundra.

 

[Sarum]

Contender, Aim – peaceful Cultural Victory.

CS Slingshot in 1200 BC. Built 6 cities up to 500 BC.

Research path:
Fishing (3800 BC) – AH (3360 BC) – Bronze Working (2800 BC) – Wheel (2560 BC) – Writing (2240 BC) – Mystisim (2080 BC) – Meditation (1880 BC) – Priesthood (1760 BC) – Code of Laws (1200 BC) – Civil Service (1160 BC) – Agriculture (975 BC) – Sailing (950 BC) – Alphabet (775 BC) – Masonry, Pottery, IW (750 BC) – Math (650 BC) – Poly (600 BC) – Archery (575 BC) – Monotheism (500 BC) – Metal Casting (200 BC) – Literature (100 BC)

My build queue:
Worker – Fishing boat (after researching Fishing) – Worker (Finished) – Warrior – Warrior – Library – Settler – Oracle. Forgot what came next.

Cities:
Berlin – 4000 BC
Hamburg – 2040 BC
Munich – 1000 BC
Cologne – 900 BC
Frankfurt – 600 BC
Essen – 525 BC

Wonders:
Oracle – 1200 BC
Kong Miao – 250 BC
Colossus – 1 AD

Great People:
Great Scientist – 1000 BC (Academy)
Great Prophet – 300 BC (Kong Miao)

Civics by 1 Ad:
1) Bureacracy
2) Organized Religion
3) Caste System

State and only religion – Confucianism.

I was lucky to built Oracle in 1200 BC. I realized it reading other posts.
But AI built other wonders rather early:
Stonehenge – 1960 BC
Pyramids – 1200 BC (!)
Parthenon – 875 BC (!)
Great Lighthouse – 525 BC

Made several mistakes. Went for the Great Lighthouse and missed it (though earned some cash). Built 6 cities quickly and stopped. Missed an iron city cite to Washington. Could build Oracle and Academy earlier. Spent forest chops for unimportant things.

Had only 1 religion. But it spread like a wind. In 650 BC Washington, my only neighbour, converted to Confucianism.
Christianity was founded in 450 BC, very early for me.

So at 1 AD I was first in score and in a great position to win effortlessly. But it turned out it was not that easy. Bismark is not a cultural leader.

 

[akots]

I think that CS slingshot is a liittle bit overrated. Ay least I think that in this game it is suboptimal. ...

Completely agree, it is certainly overrated for this type of map imho. But as I said previously, it just helps to make it through. At least you know what you are doing and you know the possible outcome and it is a sort of universal strategy which is not significantly adversly affecting the development in the long run.

 

[moggydave]

Adventurer, Aim-????

I've had a long hiatus from Civ4, so whereas I was just about getting on to Prince a few months ago I'm back to finding Noble a challenge. Thus Monarch is really outta my league, hence adventure class and a real good scouring of the pre-game discuss thread. I'm glad I gave this ago because I feel I'm playing my best game of Civ.

My plan was to bypass religion founding and expand quickly. I wanted Pyramids for the GE more than anything which I planned to use on the Great Lighthouse or Collosus.

I got Pyramids easy. I also got Great Lighthouse and slipped in Stonehenge which helped a lot with culture (I was suprised I got it so easy). Used two GE to get Great Lib and Collosus.

Tech was:

Fishing--AH--BW--Masonry--........... (forgets and should scribble notes)

I founded quite a few cities a lot quicker than usual and was suprised that my economy suvived at this level. All the resources on this map make it easier than a standard game I think. My production is very high on most cities as is my commerce thanks to the sea and the wonders. I'm now doing quite a lot of cottage spamming to really push the researc and push for Space Race or Diplo.

Religion is non-existant on my island which may/may not help diplo. I'm ahead in tech of my neighbours and ahead in score too which suprised me. My military is sufficient to survive an attack from Washington. I may contemplate one myself.

I have to say, even though the start was excellent (all those resources) and I did have the adventurer class this is my best game of Civ ever. Firt GOTM too.