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GOTM 107 Spoiler

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by Peaster, Feb 6, 2010.

  1. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    Everyone was talking about the Zulu's. I did not get the Zulu's. I had Japan instead.
     
  2. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Moderator Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    When starting GOTM 107 one of the other AI civ's should be the Zulu. Perhaps they were destroyed by an other civ and the Japanese returned for them before you had contact with them???

    Did you finish the game and want to submit...I have nothing received from you yet?????
     
  3. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    I am going to pass this time. Will turn in 108.
     
  4. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    My game started with Green = Babylonians [To check this, I replayed to 3850BC and found Babylon on the top 5 cities list]. It seems from Grigor's log that his did too ! Weirdness ... :confused:
     
  5. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Moderator Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Mmmm. my mistake perhaps. I see in my log I have Babylonian civ first at -3000 and at -2000 I have listed the Zulu. I will check my game to see if I did something wrong with copy and paste (I think I did because I have no MPE before -2000).
     
  6. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Moderator Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    I've checked. But my log is ok. The Babylonians were destroyed by the Aztecs (is mentioned in my log).

    Here is the rest of my log:

    102 20 Kuibyshev
    103 40 Magnitogorsk
    104 60 >0,6M / Uralsk
    105 80
    106 100 Kazan
    107 120 Republic->Mysticism / >0,7M / Vologda / got Mysticism
    108 140 start learning Philosophy / Murmansk
    109 160 >0,8M / destroy Athens
    110 180
    111 200 Vitebsk / destroyed Sparta
    112 220 >0,9M
    113 240 >1M / Batum + Tiflis
    114 260 destroyed Delhi / captured Thermophylae + Corinth
    115 280 Philosphy->Monotheism->M edicine / destroyed Pharsalos (destroyed Greek) / Bryansk
    116 300
    117 320
    118 340
    119 360
    120 380
    121 400
    122 420
    123 440
    124 460
    125 480
    126 500
    127 520 build Sun Tzu
    128 540
    129 560

    Status at +560
    Population: 1.57M; Cities: 44; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 152; Cost per turn: 1; Total advances: 26; Production: 113MT; 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders:Marco Polo, Sun Tzu
    Units: 17 settlers, 1 archer, 1 crusader, 18 knights
    Zulu: Uncooperative, Peace, 152 gold, 2 cities
    Aztecs: Receptive, Peace, 250 gold, 4 cities
    English: Receptive, Peace, 11 gold, 1 cities
    Sioux: Receptive, Peace, 198 gold, 4 cities

    130 580 Medicine->Theology
    131 600
    132 620
    133 640
    134 660
    135 680
    136 700
    137 720
    138 740 Hanging Gardens build
    139 760
    140 780
    141 800
    142 820
    143 840 >2M
    144 860 capture Pyramids
    145 880 Theology->Astronomy / destroyed Sioux
    146 900
    147 920
    148 940
    149 960
    150 980 J.S. Bach build
    151 1000 Aztecs destroyed

    Status at +1000
    Population: 2.81M; Cities: 71; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 29 Cost per turn: 2; Total advances: 26; Production: 208 MT; 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders:Marco Polo, Sun Tzu, Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, J.S. Bach
    Units: 29 settlers, 1 archer, 12 crusader, 10 knights, 6 caravan
    Zulu: Uncooperative, Peace, 247 gold, 2 cities
    Spain: Uncooperative, Peace, 0 gold, 0 cities
    English: Uncooperative, Peace, 39 gold, 2 cities

    152 1010
    153 1020 >3M
    154 1030 Astronomy=>Engineering
    155 1040
    156 1050 got Engineering
    157 1060 start learning Invention
    158 1070
    159 1080
    160 1090 >4M
    161 1100
    162 1110 Spanish destroyed by Zulu (no respawn)
    163 1120
    164 1130 Michelangelo's build / Invention->Banking / destroyed York + Banking
    165 1140
    166 1150 English destroyed
    167 1160
    168 1170 >5M
    169 1180 Democracy->Gunpowder
    170 1190
    171 1200
    172 1210
    173 1220
    174 1230 >6M
    175 1240 Collosus build
    176 1250 Leonardo's build
    177 1260 Statue of Liberty build
    178 1270 Lighthouse build / 7M / destroyed Zulu's (had 2 respawns of green) / Green civ is gone
    179 1280 Coopernicus build / Sanitation->University / Great Library build
    180 1290
    181 1300 >8M
    182 1310 Shakespeare build / University->Chemistry
    183 1320 King richard build
    184 1330
    185 1340 Great Wall build / >10M
    186 1350 Chemistry->Theory of Gravity / >11M
    187 1360 Theory of Gravity->Explosives / >12M
    188 1370 >13M
    189 1380 Explosives->Economics
    190 1390 Economics->Navigation
    191 1400 >14M
    192 1410 >16M
    193 1420 Navigation->Physics / >18M
    194 1430 >20M
    195 1440 Physics->Atomic Theory / >21M
    196 1450 Isaac Newton build / Atomic Theory->Magnetism / >22M
    197 1460 >23M
    198 1470 Magnetism->Steam Engine / Magellan's build / >24M
    199 1480 Steam Engine->Railroad / >25M
    200 1490 Adam Smith build / >26M
    201 1500 Railroad->Industrialization
    202 1505 Eiffeltower build

    Here my log ends. I played a couple of turns before the final conquest.
     
  7. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    So babylonians hold the green. I always thought they were purple. They are in TOT. That may be were the confusion was. Aztec defeated Babylon. Respawn Japan. I defeated Aztec. Respawn Spain. I bribed Spain. No respawn. I Bribed Greeks. No Respawn. Japan as pet city until end. I still have 3 cities left of the Sioux.

    Maybe if use bribe = no respawn?? I may not have had Marco when Babylon respawned, therefore I did not catch japan until I had contact or built MP

    Another issue, I always bribe or destroy all units before the last city is raized or assimulated.
     
  8. haleewud

    haleewud Chieftain

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    I have a question about the periodic statistics you show in your log. Specifically about Trade Routes. I assume 0D0F means 0 domestic and 0 foreign. But how do you actually count domestic trade routes? Let's say you send a caravan from Karakorum to Kazan. Does this count as 1 domestic route or 2? Now let's say you send a van from Karakorum to Athens. I would assume this is a foreign trade route. But what happens if you later conquer Athens? Does this become 1 domestic trade route, 2 domestic trade routes, or do you still consider it a foreign route?
     
  9. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Moderator Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Good question. I think it becomes a domestic trade route in the example you mentioned. But I'm not sure about it. Most of the times I don't write down the domestic and foreign routes. I guess AliArdavan knows this isue better then me.....and perhaps Peaster too..
     
  10. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    As far as I know, this is Ali's notation. I don't keep track of this stat in my games.
     
  11. grigor

    grigor Chieftain

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    Peaster -

    Yes, I was waiting for ellies. I didn't see the value of sending out triremes to build outpost cities. I suppose that if I had sent a trireme soon after I got Maps in 1650, the outposts would have been able to generate a second and perhaps third round of settlers for yet further outposts. I don't have the hang of the outpost strategy yet. What do you look for in an outpost location?

    In the beginning, I built one road near Kiev so that I would have some science, and I spent a few turns putting the St. Petersburg worker on the spice for the same reason. That led to Monarchy in 2050, which I was personally very pleased with. I can't believe that getting Monarchy in 2050 and Trade in 1350 is not close to the ideal strategy. What happened afterward is what I don't understand. I thought I was building as fast as possible.

    When I got Trade in 1350, I was (irrationally) contemplating sending out my entire army in about 900BC. That giddy optimism probably impacted sensible development. I stopped rapid city growth at around 8 and pursued a multi-front build approach which was too slow. Civ 2 rewards efficient movement toward a complex goal.

    When you got MPE in the 700-800 range, you could trade for some of the techs which I researched. That was where you and Magic caught up.

    So perhaps the ideal strategy for EC is:
    1 Monarchy ASAP
    2 Maps ASAP
    3 send out settlers after Maps
    4 When Trade comes up in the tech list, select it, but set Science low and grow like crazy.
    5 MPE should some late enough to get a certain number of techs from the AI (optimal date for Marco on this map seemed to be around 800 - perhaps Magic was relatively slower getting his army out simply because he started later?
     
  12. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    I think you might have conquered faster that way, since it took quite a while to get poly. But since you didn't have any AI maps yet, it might've been hard to place the outposts correctly. You'd have to rely on luck, or nearest city info, which can be tricky.

    I usually build an outpost [or two] near the shortest sea route from my homeland to the AI capital [to minimize travel times]. I usually build it at least 5 tiles away from any AI cities, to be safe, but this varies depending on whether I have defenders ready, peace with the AI, the terrain, etc. I've lost so many outposts, that I'm pretty cautious now.

    Assuming the outpost survives, it is very powerful, because of its flexibilty. It can produce ellies, dips, boats, more settlers, explorers, or even vans depending on your needs. You don't have to worry as much about AI surprises such as city walls, etc. For EC purposes, you want to RB in your outposts as fast as possible, which can be expensive. So, you may need to mix in a tribute strategy, or a caravan strategy, to pay for that.

    I am not sure if/when outposts are better than just sending ellies [see post 11 of this thread]. But I feel it is best to get the boats out ASAP, so if I can build triremes much before Poly, I will gladly load them with Settlers. Also, if the AI capital is not easily accessible [near the sea, a river or a road system], I prefer outposts over ellies.

    I admit that I don't either, so I hope to think more about this GOTM. Or maybe some other player has an idea ? For now, I am wondering why you delayed Poly for MPE ... it seems you could've sent out flotillas earlier than you did - loaded with Settlers or Ellies.

    I maxed taxes until approx 2000BC, for growth [eg RBing settlers]. After I had a largish civ, I maxed science, trying to catch up techwise, which seemed to work. And I had extra settlers / outposts. I don't think your early game was bad in any way, but IMO your best chance was to use your early science lead; eg send out ellies ASAP.

    I feel that early monarchy is a good thing, but maybe a little over-rated. If you get it when you have approx 6 cities, then you have gotten it soon enough. Much sooner, and you MAY have wasted some resources on science that could've gone into growth. But I have not been able to prove this mathematically, even to myself - it is very debatable. And this is certainly not a criticism of your game - I would've been delighted with Monarchy in 2050 !
     
  13. grigor

    grigor Chieftain

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    Ah - so what you (Peaster) are suggesting is that in the beginning, set gold to max until you can rushbuy the settler for the 4th, 5th, or 6th city, then start science. I will try something like that next time.
     
  14. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    Yes. That summarizes my system pretty well, though I'd add some footnotes (and would welcome other suggestions):

    * I am fairly confident about maxing gold at the start, but haven't found the perfect general rule about when to switch. Sometimes I just compare [very roughly] the costs and benefits of monarchy vs those of a new city, to decide between beakers and gold.

    * Example: if you start the game with good techs [example: alp + code of laws], then Monarchy is cheap, and you may as well go for it ASAP. Likewise, hut results [gold for RBs] might affect the decision ... if you have more gold than you can reasonably spend, then lower taxes !

    * In some games, monarchy just seems more urgent than others [to upgrade the effects of certain specials, to move on to other techs such as Trade, to solve support problems caused by popping huts...].

    * One thing you DON'T want is mass rioting before monarchy. So, on the higher levels, be sure to get it before city #8 or so. It is easy to mess this up [eg a bad tech from a hut, or simply forgetting to plan] so allow some slack.

    * If you have the patience, plan to get monarchy in an oedo year.

    So ... the decision seems fairly complex, and I don't have a simple formula for the best time to switch. But from replaying/etc, I think that any time around the 4th city is usually OK. And it seems better to get monarchy a little too early than too late.

    EDIT: Magic just posted our results. You [Grigor] and I finished within a few turns of each other, closer than I'd imagined. So, our strategies were roughly equivalent, and probably neither was very bad. Next time I play "lean", I'll focus more on early science, but my tech mistakes this time weren't too costly, I think.
     

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