Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by Peaster, Feb 6, 2010.
Everyone was talking about the Zulu's. I did not get the Zulu's. I had Japan instead.
When starting GOTM 107 one of the other AI civ's should be the Zulu. Perhaps they were destroyed by an other civ and the Japanese returned for them before you had contact with them???
Did you finish the game and want to submit...I have nothing received from you yet?????
I am going to pass this time. Will turn in 108.
My game started with Green = Babylonians [To check this, I replayed to 3850BC and found Babylon on the top 5 cities list]. It seems from Grigor's log that his did too ! Weirdness ...
Mmmm. my mistake perhaps. I see in my log I have Babylonian civ first at -3000 and at -2000 I have listed the Zulu. I will check my game to see if I did something wrong with copy and paste (I think I did because I have no MPE before -2000).
I've checked. But my log is ok. The Babylonians were destroyed by the Aztecs (is mentioned in my log).
Here is the rest of my log:
102 20 Kuibyshev
103 40 Magnitogorsk
104 60 >0,6M / Uralsk
106 100 Kazan
107 120 Republic->Mysticism / >0,7M / Vologda / got Mysticism
108 140 start learning Philosophy / Murmansk
109 160 >0,8M / destroy Athens
111 200 Vitebsk / destroyed Sparta
112 220 >0,9M
113 240 >1M / Batum + Tiflis
114 260 destroyed Delhi / captured Thermophylae + Corinth
115 280 Philosphy->Monotheism->M edicine / destroyed Pharsalos (destroyed Greek) / Bryansk
127 520 build Sun Tzu
Status at +560
Population: 1.57M; Cities: 44; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 152; Cost per turn: 1; Total advances: 26; Production: 113MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders:Marco Polo, Sun Tzu
Units: 17 settlers, 1 archer, 1 crusader, 18 knights
Zulu: Uncooperative, Peace, 152 gold, 2 cities
Aztecs: Receptive, Peace, 250 gold, 4 cities
English: Receptive, Peace, 11 gold, 1 cities
Sioux: Receptive, Peace, 198 gold, 4 cities
130 580 Medicine->Theology
138 740 Hanging Gardens build
143 840 >2M
144 860 capture Pyramids
145 880 Theology->Astronomy / destroyed Sioux
150 980 J.S. Bach build
151 1000 Aztecs destroyed
Status at +1000
Population: 2.81M; Cities: 71; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 29 Cost per turn: 2; Total advances: 26; Production: 208 MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders:Marco Polo, Sun Tzu, Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, J.S. Bach
Units: 29 settlers, 1 archer, 12 crusader, 10 knights, 6 caravan
Zulu: Uncooperative, Peace, 247 gold, 2 cities
Spain: Uncooperative, Peace, 0 gold, 0 cities
English: Uncooperative, Peace, 39 gold, 2 cities
153 1020 >3M
154 1030 Astronomy=>Engineering
156 1050 got Engineering
157 1060 start learning Invention
160 1090 >4M
162 1110 Spanish destroyed by Zulu (no respawn)
164 1130 Michelangelo's build / Invention->Banking / destroyed York + Banking
166 1150 English destroyed
168 1170 >5M
169 1180 Democracy->Gunpowder
174 1230 >6M
175 1240 Collosus build
176 1250 Leonardo's build
177 1260 Statue of Liberty build
178 1270 Lighthouse build / 7M / destroyed Zulu's (had 2 respawns of green) / Green civ is gone
179 1280 Coopernicus build / Sanitation->University / Great Library build
181 1300 >8M
182 1310 Shakespeare build / University->Chemistry
183 1320 King richard build
185 1340 Great Wall build / >10M
186 1350 Chemistry->Theory of Gravity / >11M
187 1360 Theory of Gravity->Explosives / >12M
188 1370 >13M
189 1380 Explosives->Economics
190 1390 Economics->Navigation
191 1400 >14M
192 1410 >16M
193 1420 Navigation->Physics / >18M
194 1430 >20M
195 1440 Physics->Atomic Theory / >21M
196 1450 Isaac Newton build / Atomic Theory->Magnetism / >22M
197 1460 >23M
198 1470 Magnetism->Steam Engine / Magellan's build / >24M
199 1480 Steam Engine->Railroad / >25M
200 1490 Adam Smith build / >26M
201 1500 Railroad->Industrialization
202 1505 Eiffeltower build
Here my log ends. I played a couple of turns before the final conquest.
So babylonians hold the green. I always thought they were purple. They are in TOT. That may be were the confusion was. Aztec defeated Babylon. Respawn Japan. I defeated Aztec. Respawn Spain. I bribed Spain. No respawn. I Bribed Greeks. No Respawn. Japan as pet city until end. I still have 3 cities left of the Sioux.
Maybe if use bribe = no respawn?? I may not have had Marco when Babylon respawned, therefore I did not catch japan until I had contact or built MP
Another issue, I always bribe or destroy all units before the last city is raized or assimulated.
I have a question about the periodic statistics you show in your log. Specifically about Trade Routes. I assume 0D0F means 0 domestic and 0 foreign. But how do you actually count domestic trade routes? Let's say you send a caravan from Karakorum to Kazan. Does this count as 1 domestic route or 2? Now let's say you send a van from Karakorum to Athens. I would assume this is a foreign trade route. But what happens if you later conquer Athens? Does this become 1 domestic trade route, 2 domestic trade routes, or do you still consider it a foreign route?
Good question. I think it becomes a domestic trade route in the example you mentioned. But I'm not sure about it. Most of the times I don't write down the domestic and foreign routes. I guess AliArdavan knows this isue better then me.....and perhaps Peaster too..
As far as I know, this is Ali's notation. I don't keep track of this stat in my games.
Yes, I was waiting for ellies. I didn't see the value of sending out triremes to build outpost cities. I suppose that if I had sent a trireme soon after I got Maps in 1650, the outposts would have been able to generate a second and perhaps third round of settlers for yet further outposts. I don't have the hang of the outpost strategy yet. What do you look for in an outpost location?
In the beginning, I built one road near Kiev so that I would have some science, and I spent a few turns putting the St. Petersburg worker on the spice for the same reason. That led to Monarchy in 2050, which I was personally very pleased with. I can't believe that getting Monarchy in 2050 and Trade in 1350 is not close to the ideal strategy. What happened afterward is what I don't understand. I thought I was building as fast as possible.
When I got Trade in 1350, I was (irrationally) contemplating sending out my entire army in about 900BC. That giddy optimism probably impacted sensible development. I stopped rapid city growth at around 8 and pursued a multi-front build approach which was too slow. Civ 2 rewards efficient movement toward a complex goal.
When you got MPE in the 700-800 range, you could trade for some of the techs which I researched. That was where you and Magic caught up.
So perhaps the ideal strategy for EC is:
1 Monarchy ASAP
2 Maps ASAP
3 send out settlers after Maps
4 When Trade comes up in the tech list, select it, but set Science low and grow like crazy.
5 MPE should some late enough to get a certain number of techs from the AI (optimal date for Marco on this map seemed to be around 800 - perhaps Magic was relatively slower getting his army out simply because he started later?
I think you might have conquered faster that way, since it took quite a while to get poly. But since you didn't have any AI maps yet, it might've been hard to place the outposts correctly. You'd have to rely on luck, or nearest city info, which can be tricky.
I usually build an outpost [or two] near the shortest sea route from my homeland to the AI capital [to minimize travel times]. I usually build it at least 5 tiles away from any AI cities, to be safe, but this varies depending on whether I have defenders ready, peace with the AI, the terrain, etc. I've lost so many outposts, that I'm pretty cautious now.
Assuming the outpost survives, it is very powerful, because of its flexibilty. It can produce ellies, dips, boats, more settlers, explorers, or even vans depending on your needs. You don't have to worry as much about AI surprises such as city walls, etc. For EC purposes, you want to RB in your outposts as fast as possible, which can be expensive. So, you may need to mix in a tribute strategy, or a caravan strategy, to pay for that.
I am not sure if/when outposts are better than just sending ellies [see post 11 of this thread]. But I feel it is best to get the boats out ASAP, so if I can build triremes much before Poly, I will gladly load them with Settlers. Also, if the AI capital is not easily accessible [near the sea, a river or a road system], I prefer outposts over ellies.
I admit that I don't either, so I hope to think more about this GOTM. Or maybe some other player has an idea ? For now, I am wondering why you delayed Poly for MPE ... it seems you could've sent out flotillas earlier than you did - loaded with Settlers or Ellies.
I maxed taxes until approx 2000BC, for growth [eg RBing settlers]. After I had a largish civ, I maxed science, trying to catch up techwise, which seemed to work. And I had extra settlers / outposts. I don't think your early game was bad in any way, but IMO your best chance was to use your early science lead; eg send out ellies ASAP.
I feel that early monarchy is a good thing, but maybe a little over-rated. If you get it when you have approx 6 cities, then you have gotten it soon enough. Much sooner, and you MAY have wasted some resources on science that could've gone into growth. But I have not been able to prove this mathematically, even to myself - it is very debatable. And this is certainly not a criticism of your game - I would've been delighted with Monarchy in 2050 !
Ah - so what you (Peaster) are suggesting is that in the beginning, set gold to max until you can rushbuy the settler for the 4th, 5th, or 6th city, then start science. I will try something like that next time.
Yes. That summarizes my system pretty well, though I'd add some footnotes (and would welcome other suggestions):
* I am fairly confident about maxing gold at the start, but haven't found the perfect general rule about when to switch. Sometimes I just compare [very roughly] the costs and benefits of monarchy vs those of a new city, to decide between beakers and gold.
* Example: if you start the game with good techs [example: alp + code of laws], then Monarchy is cheap, and you may as well go for it ASAP. Likewise, hut results [gold for RBs] might affect the decision ... if you have more gold than you can reasonably spend, then lower taxes !
* In some games, monarchy just seems more urgent than others [to upgrade the effects of certain specials, to move on to other techs such as Trade, to solve support problems caused by popping huts...].
* One thing you DON'T want is mass rioting before monarchy. So, on the higher levels, be sure to get it before city #8 or so. It is easy to mess this up [eg a bad tech from a hut, or simply forgetting to plan] so allow some slack.
* If you have the patience, plan to get monarchy in an oedo year.
So ... the decision seems fairly complex, and I don't have a simple formula for the best time to switch. But from replaying/etc, I think that any time around the 4th city is usually OK. And it seems better to get monarchy a little too early than too late.
EDIT: Magic just posted our results. You [Grigor] and I finished within a few turns of each other, closer than I'd imagined. So, our strategies were roughly equivalent, and probably neither was very bad. Next time I play "lean", I'll focus more on early science, but my tech mistakes this time weren't too costly, I think.
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