GOTM 109 Spoiler

[Peaster]

Gotm 109: Germans, normal round map, 7 civs, restarts ON, King.

My early plans are in the main thread. I expect Grigor will use the size one trick, and then we can compare results [I estimated the options were approx equivalent]. I built a one-tile road for the arrow, assuming there were no beautiful grassy rivers nearby - my first bad guess. I probably lost a few turns to this, and some other bad guesses, such as trying expand to the East, and then finding no great sites there. At King, without huts, there are few reasons to build an early exploring unit [but that would've turned out better].

4000BC: Berlin.
3800BC: Leipzig (2) on wheat.
3450BC: Berlins makes 3rd settler; it goes East.
3250BC: Hamburg (3) gets only 1 food per turn until Monarchy. Uggh.
3100BC: Konig (4). I switched from taxes to science about here, to get to monarchy sooner.
2850BC: Hamburg makes a phalanx (Uggh). But making a settler might've disbanded the city.
2650BC: Monarchy -> mapm. I'll skip some normal years....

2000BC: 9 cities, 2S, 1tri, 7.5adv, 2rds, 16g.
1850BC: Trade -> hbr, 11 cities.
1700BC to 1500BC: 14 cities, get hbr from Mongs, research poly.
1400BC: MPE, get mas, mys, wri, lit, pot, and [soon] all AI maps. I switched to Phil, but kept science low. I stopped ICS about now, to destroy the first civ [Mongols], and mess with trade. This was probably a bit too early - my army never seemed quite big enough for 7 civs + respawns.
1000BC: Destroyed Mongol capital. 16 cities.
925BC: Mongols down. Respawn as Indians at 66,60. That area is my new main target, but it's hard to reach.
800BC: Aztecs down, respawn at 47,71.
625BC: LH
575BC: Phil+Mono -> Seaf. Have sent out a few vans, now getting approx 230g per van, once every few turns. But I'm not putting much effort into trade in this game.
550BC: J's sneak into one of my empty cities.
525BC: HG, Egypt down, no respawn.
475BC(approx): J's down, respawn at 47,71.
400BC: Indians down, no respawn on F3 screen.
375BC: I find a Sioux settler [not on F3] and kill it.
275BC: Pyr. Routine destruction, except that I was rather slow getting to the Persians' more distant cities [weak planning]. [edit]: Greeks , Russians and approx 10 respawns go down, approx 300-200bc.
200BC: Thought I was done, but Persia respawned as China at 69,15 ... very far from the first dozen respawns [and from me, of course]. So, I lost approx 4 turns finishing off that last one.
100BC: [edit] China down. End.

Pleasant short game. No major regrets, except for the bad early guesses, and some debatable timing. I probably should've built 20-25 cities before stopping ICS. I had enough muscle to destroy the Mongols, but not to chase repsawns quickly, nor to build LH/etc quickly. I was lucky the respawns didn't grow large cities, which could've ruined my whole respawn plan.

[2nd edit]: Footnote on Trade. I decided not to invest heavily in trade in this game, since I expected to conquer before 1ad without it. Not enough time for a big payoff. Also, Hides supply/demand didn't seem promising. So ... no Colossus, marketplaces, Republic, or super-ship-chains. I did make about 10 deliveries, for approx 200g each, or 2000g total (with costs = 500 shields = 1000g, approx). I guess transportation took 5-10 turns on average. I finished the game with approx 1200g not spent - was thinking I might need it for bribes, but used crusaders instead. Summary: the vans were probably a good idea, but maybe a bit overdone, and overall not really a major factor in my game. I admit that in another thread, I advised newbies to go "all-or-nothing" on trade, and that I took a middle path here [so, my advice was an over-simplification, but IMO harmless].

 

[haleewud]

200BC: Thought I was done, but Persia respawned as China at 69,15 ... very far from the first dozen respawns [and from me, of course]. So, I lost approx 4 turns finishing off that last one.

Pleasant short game. No major regrets, except for the bad early guesses, and some debatable timing. I probably should've built 20-25 cities before stopping ICS. I had enough muscle to destroy the Mongols, but not to chase repsawns quickly, nor to build LH/etc quickly. I was lucky the respawns didn't grow large cities, which could've ruined my whole respawn plan.

I was very impressed with your result. It looks to me like your first conquest was the Mong capital in 1000 BC. You were able to win in 200 BC. If I count correctly, that is only 32 turns to eliminate all of the rest of the AIs including the restarts. I am not sure how you could have any regrets. That seems phenomenal to me. I guess I still have a lot to learn about EC.

One thing I don't see in your log is when you killed the Greeks and Russians.

 

[haleewud]

By the way, I think I have learned too much and my brain must be clogged with knowledge.

When I looked at the starting location, I thought it looked like I was one square from a four special site. So, it was a toss-up between OCC and EC. I don't have a lot of experience with either, so I decided to go OCC. Sure enough there were 4 specials (2 Wheat, 1 Whale, 1 Silk).

After I revealed the terrain, my clogged mind messed me up bad. I decided to use the size 1 trick (switched from the whale to the silk). After I completed the settler, my mind went further out of whack. I did the size 1 trick again. 1 turn after the second settler was done, the city grew to size 2. I immediately used 1 settler to go to size 3 and shortly after went to size 4.

So, my city size didn't suffer much, but I think I lost a lot of early science and, of course, production that could have been better used. I got to Monarchy in 2050 (probably should have been earlier). I don't know what I was thinking. I am currently in the middle of the game (around 1100 AD). Maxed at size 22 or 23 (before supermarket). I just discovered Railroad. I am well behind the pace I set in the last OCC I tried.

 

[Peaster]

I was very impressed with your result. It looks to me like your first conquest was the Mong capital in 1000 BC. You were able to win in 200 BC. If I count correctly, that is only 23 turns to eliminate all of the rest of the AIs including the restarts. I am not sure how you could have any regrets. That seems phenomenal to me. I guess I still have a lot to learn about EC.

One thing I don't see in your log is when you killed the Greeks and Russians.

Thanks! I have edited my log to clarify that I finished in 100BC [I planned to finish in 200BC, but had a little bad luck] and that I destroyed the Greeks and Romans in approx 250BC, along with lots of respawns. I can usually kill off each respawn in 1-2 turns, because the locations are almost predictable, but the Pers-Chinese one surprised me.

1000BC to 100BC is 36 turns. IMO [ideally] all 6 conquests should occur in approx the same turn - if one comes much later than the others, it is a sign of bad planning; that last conquest should've been rushed. This rule does not apply when respawns are on [or to very long maps like 108]. Still, I could've finished earlier if I had started on Persia earlier. It seemed so close to my homeland that I discounted its difficulty, but its cities were spread out, so it took a while [and then the China thing].

I've been playing EC pretty seriously for 5 years, talking and competing with some great players here, and at Apolyton [let's see how Grigor and CC do, before getting too excited about my game!]. I wrote a guide to EC, which I guess you've seen somewhere. So, I play as if every turn counts. To me, EC is the most enduring fun that Civ2 has to offer! .. but I also enjoy arguing.

I can't really comment on OCC, but good luck!

 

[haleewud]

Sorry, apparently I also can't type. I meant to say 32 turns not 23 turns. I have edited the post.

 

[haleewud]

I have another question about scoring.

This game is being played at "King" difficulty. So the turns between 1500 and 1750 are 5 years per turn.

Let's say it is turn 241 (1700 AD). I have a 15 structural, 4 component 3 module ship ready to launch. It will take 21 years to land (1721 AD). But that is 21 turns so my total turn count would 262. If I build 2 more components in 2 turns, I will have a 15-6-3 spaceship. It will be 1710 AD and it will take 15 years to land. So it will land in 1725. But under that scenario, I take 241 + 2 to build the components + 15 to land for a total of 258 turns.

So even though I could land earlier (1721 versus 1725), I will get a higher GOTM score by using less turns by building the extra components and cutting the travel time.

Is my understanding of the scoring correct? Of course, that would assume that the actual score is the same (and I don't do something like build a WOW during the 4 'extra' turns).

 

[haleewud]

One other question.

Do Future Techs count toward the base (CIV2) score? Does it matter if all the 'base' technologies have been discovered or not?

 

[Peaster]

@haleewud: not sure anyone else will see your post soon, so I'll give these a try ... [though they aren't quite up my alley]. I think you are correct, that GOTM score is based on turns, not years. Also, I think each FT adds +5 or so to your Civ2 score, but normal techs have no effect. You could PM Magic, or post in the main thread, to confirm this.

BTW - it just occurred to me that you are playing OCC ... so why would you care about your score ? [OCC players are expected to finish with low scores; no shame in it].

 

[haleewud]

I know that playing OCC will result in a low score. But I still want it to be the highest low score possible. My actual years don't match what I put in the previous post, but they are close. I think that I am going to launch at the earliest opportunity (for the earlier landing year). I think with the extra six turns I should be able to get 1 or 2 WOW built. So hopefully my score won't suffer much.

 

[CharlieChuck]

At 1ad
I was doing okay until about 400bc. Had a nightmare turn, lost 3 elllies attacking kyoto and a ship of barbs captured one of my cities that was supporting 4 triremes. I'm quite impressed you finished bc Peaster, I still haven't got to the greeks and spanish yet.


@halewud
According to my notes, which are copied and pasted from somewhere on this site, the best (quickest) ship for a OCC is the 15/3-3/1-1-1 one you mention. This lands in 15.7 years and is the quickest to build and land. Obviously this assumes you rush a spaceship part each turn.

For the GOTM score, you need to increase your civ score by roughly 1.4% each turn for the GOTM score to stay the same. It's doubtful in OCC that two turns that late in the game would add any extra CIV score, as you've had plenty of time to grow and 15 years waiting for it to land is enough to build any remaining wonders.

In general, Wonders do have a big impact on both OCC and also early conquest scores, some of my best Early conquest scores have been through building too little troops and too many wonders. This wasn't by design, just a quirk of the scoring method and me not sending enough troops out.

 

[Peaster]

At 1ad
I was doing okay until about 400bc. Had a nightmare turn, lost 3 elllies attacking kyoto and a ship of barbs captured one of my cities that was supporting 4 triremes.

Very bad luck, assuming you weren't able to take Kyoto. I usually try for about 4 ellies per capital, but might attack it with just 2 or 3, if I know it contains only one weak unit [from the right-clicking trick] or if 4 is just not possible anytime soon. Of course, vet status makes a big difference too - 3 vets should be enough.

I don't have much advice about the barbs. That's pretty annoying. I leave port cities empty all the time, and just hope for the best. I do try to build roads to my homeland ports, which sometimes allows a quick defense [assuming the barbs show themselves before attacking]. Also, it is sometimes best to leave the city empty, and hope the barbs will demand ransom [I think you need at least 50 gold or so for this - IIRC someone has studied this situation in a "barb thread"]. That worked for me once in this gotm. Last resort = try posting a weak unit near the barbs, as a sacrifice, to distract them from the city until you can defend it.

 

[willemvanoranje]

4000BC Berlin
3800BC Stuttgart to northeast
3750BC Alphabet
3550BC Ceremonial Burial
3200BC Code of Law
3150BC Hamburg
2950BC Königsberg
2850BC Discovered Monarchy, switch right away, max science
2550BC München on river
2500BC Map Making
2200BC Currency
1850BC Trade
1800BC Leipzig
1750BC Heidelberg
1500BC Writing

This is me so far... waaay behind on Peaster. But I suspect I have quite a different city placement.

 

[Peaster]

@W: Let's hope so ! My cities were not placed especially well this time.

It looks like you are keeping up with me in science. Also, our growth rate was equal til approx 2800BC. Then, it seems you slowed down for some reason. Maybe you don't like the ICS style of play ?

 

[willemvanoranje]

I've never really developed the skill to focus on one single strategy. I always wonder off with my thoughts at some point and end up having a strategy somewhere between conquest, maximise points, and space race.

Main difference is in number of cities. In 1400BC you have 14 cities. I have 7. That's not because I don't know where to put them. It is because I am acostumed to having as little overlap in city territories as possible... that's me bothering more with building an empire that looks pretty than with achieving great results. Not very clever in GotM I guess.

I need to do some reading on strategy.

 

[haleewud]

I finished the game a couple of days ago, but just submitted. As I stated in an earlier post, I played an OCC. Here is a recap of my game. I kept a complete log, but it was hand-written and I haven't decided if I want to spend the time to type it out.

Governments

Monarchy – 2050 BC
Republic – 625 BC
Democracy – 940 AD

Alliances

Persians - 250 BC thru 1742 AD - 850 Gold in Gifts
Japanese - 240 AD thru 1630 AD - 1175 Gold in Gifts
Aztecs - 620 AD thru 1630 AD - 725 Gold in Gifts
Mongols - 1744 AD thru landing - 500 gold given for war against Russians

Trade

First Delivery - 240 AD (Cloth to Arbela for 360)
Second Delivery - 300 AD (Beads to Susa for 320)
Third Delivery - 560 AD (Copper to Karakorum for 352)
Largest Delivery - 1615 AD (Cloth to Aleppo for 770)
Total - 15 Deliveries to 11 cities for 7264

Wonders

Colossus – 900 BC
MPE – 300 BC
Copernicus – 700 AD
ST – 1000 AD
Isaac's – 1180 AD
Leo's – 1340 AD
Apollo – 1630 AD
UN - 1744 AD
ASTC - 1746 AD
Eiffel Tower - 1748 AD
Oracle - 1752 AD
Great Wall - 1754 AD
KRC - 1757 AD
HG – 1759 AD


OCC stats

size 8 – 575 BC
size 12 – 460 AD
size 23 – 1130 AD (pre Farmland max)
size 28 in 1560 AD
size 30 in 1750 AD (after irrigating Silk to Wheat)

Techs

Trade – 1300 BC
Invention – 900 AD
Railroad – 1100 AD
Automobile – 1440 AD
Computers – 1520 AD
Nuclear Power – 1560 AD
Flight – 1580 AD
Space Flight – 1625 AD

Launch - 1740 AD

AC arrival – 1761 AD

 

[Peaster]

I've never really developed the skill to focus on one single strategy. I always wonder off with my thoughts at some point and end up having a strategy somewhere between conquest, maximise points, and space race.

Main difference is in number of cities. In 1400BC you have 14 cities. I have 7. That's not because I don't know where to put them. It is because I am acostumed to having as little overlap in city territories as possible... that's me bothering more with building an empire that looks pretty than with achieving great results. Not very clever in GotM I guess.

I need to do some reading on strategy.

A very wise post. It is often difficult to change habits; or even to consider it. Not everyone enjoys ICS, and a few players do OK without it, but IMO it is the key to playing Civ2 well. If you only read one guide, please read DaveV's guide to ICS !!

 

[haleewud]

There were a few interesting things I noticed while playing.

First, the AIs did not seem to develop very much. Most of the AIs never had more than 5 or 6 cities. Their research also seemed very slow. For the most part, I felt I was doing most of the research for all the players. The AIs also didn't build many wonders. By 1400 AD, they AIs had only built 4 WOW. I was able to build a bunch of obsolete WOWs while waiting for the spaceship to land. That was one of the factors in deciding to launch a 15-2-2-1-1-1 spaceship instead of the generally accepted 15-3-3-1-1-1 configuration.

I spent most of the game as INADEQUATE. This made me my own key civ. I did lose a few turns when I was unable to stay at INADEQUATE. I did not 'gift' many advances to the Russians or Greeks to try to keep them weaker than me and this seemd to work okay. My problem was becoming stronger than INADEQUATE. There were a couple of turns that I jumped all the way to MIGHTY (which made the key civ the Greeks who were almost always worst in technology).

 

[willemvanoranje]

A very wise post. It is often difficult to change habits; or even to consider it. Not everyone enjoys ICS, and a few players do OK without it, but IMO it is the key to playing Civ2 well. If you only read one guide, please read DaveV's guide to ICS !!

Will do. The only different thing I've ever done is early conquest.. and that's at least 5 years ago.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I decided to use the size 1 trick (switched from the whale to the silk).

What is this size 1 trick?

...I know it contains only one weak unit [from the right-clicking trick]....

I don't understand this.

 

[Peaster]

What is this size 1 trick?

I don't understand this [2nd trick].

Size One Trick: Your first city makes a settler before reaching size 2. Normally this disbands the city, but not if it is your only city [I forget the exact conditions ... I think it also has to be your capital]. There is no loss of food when the settler is made, so this helps with fast early growth, especially if you start the game with only one settler. If you start with two, it is unclear [to me, at least] whether it is a good idea.

2nd Trick: Try right-clicking on an AI city. Sometimes [and I don't know why this doesn't always work] the enemy defender appears in your status window, a phalanx icon, for example. Then, use your mouse to shrink the status window until the phalanx icon disappears, and you'll get a message like "two other units". Disregard "other" - the message means there is a phalanx and 1 other unit in the city.