GOTM 109 Spoiler

[Magic_gorter]

Just finished my game. With a victory in 360 AD. I will soon post a log.

 

[Magic_gorter]

Here is my log:

turn year
1 4000 Berlin
2 3950 start learning Alphabet
6 3750 Alphabet->Code of Laws
16 3250 Code of Laws->Ceremonial Burial
21 3000 Ceremonial burial->Monarchy
25 2800 Konigsberg
28 2650 Monarchy->Currency / MONARCHY
29 2600 Frankfurt
31 2500 >0,1M
33 2400 Currency->Map Making
38 2150 Munich
39 2100 Map Making->Trade

Status at -1950
Population: 0.12M; Cities:6; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 101; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 7; Production: 17MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders:
Units: 2 Wariors, 4 Settler, 1 trireme
Russians: No contact
Japanese: No contact
Aztecs: No contact
Persians: No contact
Greek: No contact
Mongols: No contact

46 1750 Trade->Horseback Riding
47 1700 Heidelburg
50 1550 >0,2M
53 1400 Marco Polo build (Horseback Riding, Masonry, The Wheel) / got all maps
54 1350 start learning Polytheism
58 1150 >0,3M
59 1100 Polytheism->Writing
60 1050 Lighthouse build

Status at -1000
Population: 0.33M; Cities: 8; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 21; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 12; Production: 37MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders:Marco Polo and Lighthouse
Units: 2 Wariors, 3 Settler, 2 trireme, 2 caravans
Russians: Icy, 185g, 2 cities
Japanese: Cordial, Peace, 154 g, 2 cities
Aztecs: Enthausiastic, 40 g, 2 cities
Persians: Receptive, Peace, 105g, 2 cities
Greek: Receptive, Peace, 160g, 2 cities
Mongols: Uncooperative, Peace, 122g, 2 cities

63 950 >0,4M
65 900 Cologne (near Persians)
66 875 beads to Persepolis (48g)
67 850 Writing->Literacy
76 625 Bremen (near Russian) + Hanover (near Japanese) / beads (205g)
77 600 Literacy->Philosophy
78 575 beads (176g)
79 550 Stuttgart (near Aztecs) / wine (180g)
80 525 Philosophy->Monotheism->Republic
81 500 destroyed Persepolis

Status at -0500
Population: 0.49M; Cities: 12; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 125; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 19; Production: 44MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco Polo, Lighthouse
Units: 2 Wariors, 2 Settlers, 5 elephant, 2 crusaders, 6 trireme, 5 caravan
Russians: Receptive, Peace, 273g, 3 cities
Japanese: Cordial, Peace, 225g, 3 cities
Aztecs: Enthausiastic, Peace, 87g, 3 cities
Persians: Enraged, War, 151g, 2 cities
Greek: Uncooperative, Peace, 235g, 3 cities
Mongols: Uncooperative, Peace, 203g, 2 cities

82 475 Bonn (near Greek) / beads (112g)
83 450 >0,5M / Salzburg (near Mongols)
84 425 silk (192g) / bribed (Pasargadae+62g)
85 400 Republic->Medicine / >0,6M
86 375 bribed Susa(62g)
87 350 >0,7M / destroyed Kyoto
88 325 build Great Wall
90 275 captured Moscow (64g)
91 250 >0,8M
93 200 bribed St. Petersburg(125g)
94 175 >1M
95 150 bribed Osaka(162g) / destroyed Tenochtican
96 125 captured Tlatelolco (37g) / bribed kiev(95g) / Russian destroyed
97 100 captured Teotihuacan / Aztec destroyed->no respawn
99 50 bribed Kaghoshima(42g) / Japanese destroyed->no respawn
100 25 Hanging Gardens build
101 1 destroyed Karokarum

Status at +0001
Population: 1.38M; Cities: 23; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 360; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 20; Production: 91MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco Polo, Lighthouse, Great Wall, Hanging Gardens
Units: 4 Wariors, 3 phalanx, 2 elephant, 10 crusaders, 5 trireme, 2 diplomat, 5 caravan
Romans: Icy, 1g, 1 city
Chinese: Neutral, 18g, 1 city
Greek: Uncooperative, Peace, 304g, 3 cities
Mongols: Uncooperative, War, 228g, 1 city

103 40 destroyed Athens (35g) / bribed Thermopylae (62g)
104 60 bribed Sparta(127g) / captured Samarkand (152g + Iron Working) / Mongols destroyed->no respawn
107 120 Pyramids build / capture Beijing(12g) / Chinese destroyed / destroyed Greek->no respawn / Rome destroyed / Romans destroyed
109 160 Michelangelo's build
112 220 >2M
113 240 Colossus build
114 260 Dortmund
115 280 Medicine->Construction
118 340 Great Library build / captured Cardiff (12g+Engineering) / Celts destroyed->no respawn
119 360 Shakespeare's build / destroyed Washington (2g) / Americans destroyed->no respawn
win by conquest

A quick look at Peasters log show we discovered/changed Monarchy at/near the same time and Marco Polo also. I chose for 1 trireme with a settler and a caravan to each civ and start to build my army near their capitol. No real problems but lost time because I had not enough money to rushbuy the units.

One strange thing happened. Never saw this before. After defeating the Romans the Celts respawned.....at two different locations (1 near the north pole and 1 near the south pole) has somebody else experienced this???

I'm satisfied with the result but still not near Peasters victory date......

 

[Peaster]

A quick look at Peasters log show we discovered/changed Monarchy at/near the same time and Marco Polo also. I chose for 1 trireme with a settler and a caravan to each civ and start to build my army near their capitol. No real problems but lost time because I had not enough money to rushbuy the units.

Good experiment - I'm wondering why it didn't work out well. You got approx 160g per van, which seems OK. Probably enough to IRB 2 ellies each, almost enough to start a few conquests. And enough to "pay for" the settler + van. Did you also get tribute ? Did you send out a 2nd wave of flotillas ? Did you max taxes ? Another idea is to disband the trireme for shields, but IMO that is not so good with restarts on.

I'm starting to forget my game, but IIRC I got approx 200g from approx 10 vans [after more growth], and generally had enough gold for crucial RBs and bribes.

One strange thing happened. Never saw this before. After defeating the Romans the Celts respawned.....at two different locations (1 near the north pole and 1 near the south pole) has somebody else experienced this???

Yes, a few times [but not near the poles]. It is quite annoying in EC games, and very easy to miss. Then, it may appear later that the Celts respawn as Celts.

I'm satisfied with the result but still not near Peasters victory date......

Yes, it is a good result, and fairly near mine. At first glance, the main difference might be early ICS growth ... more cities = more power. I'm not saying your growth was bad; 6 cities in 1900BC is usually about right. I don't remember exactly how I got ahead of the ics-curve, but have many saves if anyone wants to compare in the very early phase.

 

[Magic_gorter]

Perhaps my problem was I tried to build my army at the same time instead of focusing at one civ.
With ellies (no veterans) I needed 4 to beat the Persians. When having crusaders I needed not that much (2 was enough). Perhaps I should have waited until I got monotheism. I did not ask for tribute....can try in my saves if somebody would pay me but I doubt. My army was to small I think. I did not send out a seccond wave.....I focused on caravans for wonder building. I indeed had max taxes so I could have tried delivering more vans and having more gold for RB my army. I believe disbanding my triremes was a bad choise. One bad respawn and I needed to build a trireme first....however it could be easily RB.....so mayby guessing sometimes might work.

I just checked in cheat mode but they indeed had two settlers (1 near northpole and 1 near southpole).

@Peaster: The onlyquestions I like to know (if it's not in your log) when you start sending out triremes and which units were on it.... I guess 2 eli's or crusaders and when you landed near the AI civ's.

 

[Peaster]

@Peaster: The onlyquestions I like to know (if it's not in your log) when you start sending out triremes and which units were on it.... I guess 2 eli's or crusaders and when you landed near the AI civ's.

The simple answer is that I started sending out flotillas of Settlers in approx 1800BC, mainly for expansion, rather than conquest of any specific AIs. With restarts ON, I am hoping to destroy some AI quickly [eg the Mongols], to find the map's respawn zone, and then that zone becomes my main target.

1500BC: I have only one boat, which has carried 4 settlers, so far. I have three colonies on continent 14 [SE of home] which are making more boats and a settler, to push further SE, maybe even making a small ship-chain. The boat is carrying the 4th settler past Mongolia, towards Japan. IIRC I wanted to make an outpost in western Mongolia, but the AI had a city there already, so I had to move on [I prefer not to retreat].

My early expansion in this game was mostly to the SE towards the Mongols, and then towards Japan/Aztecs. I wasn't concerned about the Greeks / Russians / Persians yet [if restarts were OFF, I would have been much more concerned].


1000BC: I have 5 boats, carrying 1S, 2vans and 2 ele's, still mostly S or SE of home. The vans are headed for specific demanding AI cities. I have 3 ele's already in Mongolia [2 are wounded vets] and I expect to defeat the Mongols, Japs and Aztecs easily, but I still can't plan ahead for the Greeks/Ru's. I don't have LH, and haven't found good sea routes yet. Also, I don't know where the respawn zone will be until I defeat the Mongols.

But I have an outpost at <25,63> (on continent 19, just SE of the Aztec island) which is very flexible for future southern campaigns. It is ICSing a settler, to double my strength in the south. Any spare gold will go for RB's there.


500BC: Now the picture is clear, and I can almost foresee the rest of the game. I have used LH to find sea routes to Gr/Ru. I have destroyed Mongols+Aztecs (+Japan almost) and know where the respawn zone is. I have 16 boats pretty well spread out:

Greece: 2 boats nearby + 1 ele +1 van +1S (which has just landed and will make the first Greek outpost next turn). IIRC one of the boats recently delivered a van. I have a distant 3rd boat coming as backup with 2 ele's.

Russia: 2 boats + 2 ele's + 1 van. No outpost in sight, but I can back up these units soon using conquered Aztec cities [or my southern outposts, or units not needed in Greece].

Respawn Zone (approx <66,60>): This has been my main goal for approx 500 years, and is also the hardest spot to reach. One boat with 2 ele's has bypassed Russia and is coming in from the East. From the West, I have 2 boats + 2 ele + 1 cru + 1 dip. IIRC about half these units came from my southern outposts. Also, I plan to destroy Japan very soon and then move those units into this zone from the NW. No settlers, since I don't want my cities here.

Persia: 2 empty boats (IIRC they had just delivered vans) and an empty outpost city nearby, fairly recent. I underestimated Persia.

I think I had approx 7 other boats closer to home, ready to chain more units where needed.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I am playing this one as OCC. I have played one session of several hours to about +1000. One thing that caught my eye as I was reading this thread was how everyone got Monarchy earlier than I did. I went back to my log and I realized that for some reason I researched Currency before Monarchy. As there is no logical reason to ever do this, I am guessing I was half asleep.

An interesting and unusual minor set back came when the city that was the source of one of my two trade routes was razed by another rival. This caused my trade route to go away and threw my city into disorder.

The only other thing worth mentioning is at some point I had barbarians attacking from several different directions and I was concerned about my survival Fortunately I managed to bribe enough units away to kill other units.

 

[grigor]

GOTM 109 Log

4000 Berlin. Road and irrigate wheat prior to size 1 settler
3400 Size 1 with gold help from setting gold to 60
Leipzig
3750 Alph, Hamburg
3000 CB -> maps
2700 Konigsberg, Frankfurt
2600 FIrst trireme sails with settlers
set science to 60
2300? Munich on SW island
2050 Monarchy
Status: 12 cities, 1 settler, 2 trireme
1800 Currency
1650 find Mongols
1550 Trade
1150 MPE (I didn't prioritize rushbuilding vans so as to keep expanding)
Trade for all maps except Aztecs who refused to lalk after trading for Pottery and Seafaring
1000 Polytheism
Status: 12 Cities, 2 settlers, 3 triremes

I set out for the Russians and got to them first in 35oBC with most of the original civs soon thereafter. But the Respawn zones (one in the south, one in Persia) were far away and I hadn't planned fortuitously.

Finished in 280AD

 

[grigor]

Wow, Peaster!!!

I got the early expansion thing pretty well this time, but I really didn't understand the respawn zone strategy well enough. I prioritized the farthest civ instead. You didn't list when you killed the first civ, but it looks like about 800BC, then 20 turns to ramp up to the respawn zone. Pretty impressive! You were mildly fortunate not to have too many repawns in the Persian area (I had 5 IIRC), but I don't think it would have mattered.

Magic - great game - I can't believe you got to Mono so fast! I thought that if I was going for a BC finish I wouldn't need to go past Elephants and HG. Eventually I needed MC, but that was later during the respawn mopup. Crooks were nice, but not strictly necessary this time.

 

[grigor]

Once I got elephants on the big AI continent, I got some serious tribute from Greeks and Japanese which funded the army. I never was impossibly short of gold. I am not sure whether I did better with that or if I should have sent some vans to demanding AI cities too.

 

[Peaster]

2600 FIrst trireme sails with settlers
...
set science to 60
...
Finished in 280AD

A 2600 flotilla is pretty amazing. I think your early expansion was better than mine this time, maybe because of the size one trick, or maybe because I made some bad guesses about terrain near the start. If I have time, maybe I'll replay with size 1.

I'm curious why you raised science soon after that (maybe you needed Trade/Poly/etc soon?) Also, you stopped growing at about -2000 (12 cities) ? I think that with respawns on, "bigger is better".

One idea of EC is to identify which task is going to take the longest, and start on that first. With restarts off, that task is usually getting to the farthest civ (Russians). But with restarts on, it is usually finding and dominating the respawn zone(s). I don't understand the civ2 algorithm for placing respawns (it seems nobody does), so I find the zone by killing off one civ ASAP, usually the nearest one (Mongols, in 925BC).

As you said, I may have been lucky to get only one respawn outside the main zone to the south (though I felt unlucky about that one). I encourage the software to repeat the same zone, by placing cities everywhere I can, except near that zone. I guess this works well in at least 50% of my restart-on games, and this game was a bit better than average in that sense.

About tribute vs trade in this game - I don't have any definite answer, but it seems reasonable to go for both. Lately, I usually include trade when restarts are on, figuring the game is going to last long enough to reward that (and growth).

Any finish before about 500AD is excellent with respawns. Good game!

 

[grigor]

-Peaster

Yes, I was really excited about the 2600 flotilla. Size 1 with the money from 60% gold was a clearly good strategy this game as it allowed me to road and irrigate the wheat square which I then shared with 3 cities. That's why I wanted Monarchy soon, and I think I panicked by switching science right after taking the early digression to Map making. But it was also after the 4th city, which was the date I had set after our last discussion. In the end, I got to Monarchy in 2200, and didn't check Oedo - I actually had 3 turns of anarchy. (!!!) So I clearly switched too soon.

I only had 6 cities at 2000 - and I only had 7 on the home island the whole game - and two of them had such slow growth that I despaired of building settlers with them. How do you do early outposts? Does the first trireme return home to reload or does it stay in the boondocks? Ho many squares do you go to look for a good city site? How do you decide which directions to go to cover the map? I think I built some warriors to explore too - how do you resist that? In this game I only had one port on the home island until about 1400bc, and I only just now thought of rehoming triremes to keep Berlin from losing production...

I thought your big advantage in 1000 was illustrated by your 5 triremes.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I just submitted.

First, the AIs did not seem to develop very much. Most of the AIs never had more than 5 or 6 cities. Their research also seemed very slow. ... The AIs also didn't build many wonders. By 1400 AD, they AIs had only built 4 WOW.

None of this is atypical in a King level game and 4000 tile map.

I was able to build a bunch of obsolete WOWs while waiting for the spaceship to land. That was one of the factors in deciding to launch a 15-2-2-1-1-1 spaceship instead of the generally accepted 15-3-3-1-1-1 configuration.

The point about playing OCC is not to gain extra points by building obsolete wonders (we all do that when there is nothing more pressing to do). It is about landing as quickly as possible. You should always build the 15s3c1m ship for OCC because it is the fastest combination for OCC. This was not a challenging set up for OCC. I have had games when I had to put space ship production on hold and attend to defense. The AI is programmed to attack and take your capital right before your ship arrives. It has happened to me. In a competitive OCC game, right after launch you engage in defense and sometimes warfare to keep your rival busy and not let them build a faster space ship.

I spent most of the game as INADEQUATE. This made me my own key civ. I did lose a few turns when I was unable to stay at INADEQUATE.

That is amazing and probably the most significant factor in your speedy cruise through the tech tree despite your initial foul up with size 1. In contrast I spent most of the game as Supreme. The rivals in this game were pathetic. Even after spending my money during space ship construction the lowest I went in rankings was moderate.

By the way, you managed to do a great OCC and beat me by several turns. Nice job.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Status at -1000
City Size: 5 Government: Monarchy Gold: 166 Techs: 7 Trade routes: 0
Structures:
Wonders: Colossus
Units: 1 None Settler, 1 Warrior, 2 Phalanx, 1 Caravan
Russian: No contact
Japanese: No contact
Aztecs: No contact
Persians: No contact
Greek: No contact
Mongol: No contact


Status at +0001
City Size: 9 Government: Republic Gold: 78 Techs: 18 Trade routes: 1
Structures: Temple, Aqueduct
Wonders: Marco, Colossus
Units: 1 None Settler, 1 vet Phalanx, 1 Trireme, 1 Diplomat, 2 Caravans.
Russian: 4 cities, 10 tech; War with Greeks
Japanese: 4 cities, 8 tech; War with Mongols
Aztecs: 3 cities, 12 tech;
Persians: 2 cities, 6 tech;
Greek: 3 cities, 10 tech; War with Russians
Mongol: 3 cities, 17 tech; War with Japanese


Status at +0500
City Size: 12 Government: Republic Gold: 917 Techs: 24 Trade routes: 3
Structures: Temple, Aqueduct, Marketplace, Library
Wonders: Marco, Colossus, Hanging Gardens
Units: 1 None Settler, 1 vet Phalanx, 2 Legions, 1 vet Chariot, 1 Trireme, 1 Diplomat
Russian: 6 cities, 16 tech; War with Greeks
Japanese: 6 cities, 10 tech; War with Mongols and me
Aztecs: 4 cities, 17 tech; Pyramids
Persians: 3 cities, 11 tech; Allied with me
Greek: 3 cities, 11 tech; War with Russians
Mongol: 2 cities, 18 tech; War with Japanese


Status at +1000
City Size: 15 Government: Democracy Gold: 1 Techs: 32 Trade routes: 3
Structures: Temple, Aqueduct, Marketplace, Library, University, Sewer
Wonders: Marco, Colossus, Hanging Gardens, Copernicus, Shakespeare
Units: 1 None Settler, 1 vet Phalanx, 1 vet Chariot, 1 Trireme, 1 Diplomat, 1 Caravan
Russian: 6 cities, 22 tech; War with Japanese
Japanese: 8 cities, 13 tech; War with Russians, Greeks, Mongols, and me
Aztecs: 4 cities, 31 tech; Pyramids
Persians: 3 cities, 19 tech; War with Greeks and Mongols, Allied with me
Greek: 4 cities, 14 tech; War with Japanese and Persians
Mongol: 2 cities, 18 tech; War with Japanese and Persians


Status at +1500
City Size: 25 Government: Democracy Gold: 1820 Techs: 55 Trade routes: 3
Structures: Aqueduct, Marketplace, Library, Bank, University, Mass Transit, Stock Exchange, Sewer, Superhighways, Harbor
Wonders: Marco, Colossus, Hanging Gardens, Copernicus, Shakespeare, Newton
Units: 1 None Settler, 1 vet Phalanx, 1 vet Chariot, 1 vet Cruiser, 1Transport, 1 Diplomat, 2 Freights
Russian: 7 cities, 27 tech; War with Japanese and me, Allied with Greeks
Japanese: 11 cities, 29 tech; War with Russians, Greeks, and Mongols
Aztecs: 5 cities, 37 tech; Allied with me; Pyramids
Persians: 4 cities, 35 tech; Allied with me
Greek: 5 cities, 22 tech; War with Japanese and me, allied with Russians
Mongol: 2 cities, 41 tech; War with Japanese

+1685 Apollo done. Space race started. Berlin is maxed out at size 33.
+1774 15S3C1M space ship launched.
+1789 Space ship arrives

 

[Peaster]

-Peaster
I only had 6 cities at 2000 - and I only had 7 on the home island the whole game - and two of them had such slow growth that I despaired of building settlers with them. How do you do early outposts? Does the first trireme return home to reload or does it stay in the boondocks?

I thought you had 12 cities - maybe I am misreading your log... ?

@Outposts: Hmmm ... good question ... I have a system for almost everything, but I guess I haven't thought thru outposts 100%. In a normal EC game with Re's off, I may send 1-2 settlers towards each AI capital, and make outposts at a safe distance (5 tiles away? Closer may save transport time, but is riskier). But sometimes (Re's on, or before MPE) I just want to expand, and boats move settlers faster than walking. In that case, I'll usually take the first nice site I can find, and will definitely re-use the boat.

How do you decide which directions to go to cover the map?

If I don't have map info from MPE yet, I just aim for the center of the map, guessing that my targets are more likely to be in that direction than any other. I tend to send my settlers that direction from the start, to build ports on that coast. But if I don't have LH, I may be forced to move towards the nearest land mass instead.

I like shipchains, and keeping my units together, so I tend to expand mostly in one direction in the early game. After MPE, or when I get better info, I'll start in other directions.

I think I built some warriors to explore too - how do you resist that?

I've been obsessed with growth rates since learning about ICS, so I am very reluctant to build units just for exploring terrain. I have never been able to analyze the cost and benefits very well, so I dont' know "best strategy" for sure. I usually explore very little until I have approx 4 cities, and hope for the best. I usually don't even bother with map analysis anymore.

On a large continent, hut-popping can pay off hugely, so I do build warriors (and ASAP explorers) in that case. But IIRC GOTM 109 had no huts.

In this game I only had one port on the home island until about 1400bc, and I only just now thought of rehoming triremes to keep Berlin from losing production...

I thought your big advantage in 1000 was illustrated by your 5 triremes.

Yeah, I probably make more boats than other players. I like to have at least 4 or 5 ports among my first 10 cities, mainly for the flexibilty of production. Then I can build "just enough" boats to carry whatever units come along. I hate to have units waiting around for a ride. Also, ocean specials are very nice for early growth, and building on the coast leaves more space inland.

 

[haleewud]

The point about playing OCC is not to gain extra points by building obsolete wonders (we all do that when there is nothing more pressing to do). It is about landing as quickly as possible. You should always build the 15s3c1m ship for OCC because it is the fastest combination for OCC. This was not a challenging set up for OCC. I have had games when I had to put space ship production on hold and attend to defense. The AI is programmed to attack and take your capital right before your ship arrives. It has happened to me. In a competitive OCC game, right after launch you engage in defense and sometimes warfare to keep your rival busy and not let them build a faster space ship.

On the first 2 turns after I launched, I built city walls (1741) and coastal fortress (1742). So I did start to work on some defense. On turn 3 (1743), I set up the build of the UN. As 1744 started, while the Mongols were processing, they offered my 500 gold to declare war on the Russians. Since the Mongols were one of the 2 closest AIs (the Persians being the other), I thought this alliance would serve 2 purposes. First, it would keep them from attacking me. Second, it gave me some extra money to help buy one more WOW. So I accepted.

I know that OCC is about the earliest landing, but I am still not sure what that means. Is it turns or years? If I had built the extra 2 components, it would have taken 10 years (2 turns) to complete. So, the 15 year flight would have started in 1750 (when the game normally goes to 2 year turns) and ended in 1765. Since I launched in 1740, I was able to land in 1761 AD. So although it took me 4 turns longer, I landed 4 years earlier.

I also wasn't worried about the AIs build. The AIs didn't have the technology. I gave the Persians SF in 1630, but I didn't give them Superconductor until 1742 (2 years after my launch).

 

[Ali Ardavan]

As 1744 started, while the Mongols were processing, they offered my 500 gold to declare war on the Russians. Since the Mongols were one of the 2 closest AIs (the Persians being the other), I thought this alliance would serve 2 purposes. First, it would keep them from attacking me. Second, it gave me some extra money to help buy one more WOW. So I accepted.

I did that kind of thing several times in the latter part of the game when I was not concerned with hits to my reputation.

I know that OCC is about the earliest landing, but I am still not sure what that means. Is it turns or years?

It is always turns. Not just for OCC, for everything.

I also wasn't worried about the AIs build. The AIs didn't have the technology. I gave the Persians SF in 1630, but I didn't give them Superconductor until 1742 (2 years after my launch).

The rivals in this game were pathetic. I cannot remember another OCC game when I spent this much time in Supreme. If you want a real OCC challenge, try playing on Earth as one of the nations of Europe, middle east, or North Africa, with 7 players and original starting locations. Some of my most memorable OCCs were in such settings particularly the one when I played as Celts and the English were in the game.