GOTM 117 Spoiler

[Peaster]

I can't claim to be an expert on happiness, but the experts I once knew (eg DaveV..) claimed it was needed at around the 10th city at Diety, and that seems about right to me. A few times, things have gone wrong for me and I've had 18-20 cities without HG. If I recall correctly, militia are not enough at that point, and you need "expensive solutions" such as Elvii, even for size one cities. And this causes chain reaction problems with food, shields, etc. By then, I think a working settler is probably worth more than a city. So, it seems better not to build past approx 10 without HG.

Also, I think the non-ICS game plans at Diety, such as Big Trade, or republic growth depend on HG for early celebration. Mike's may be a bit more efficient, but for me it takes too long (to omit HG and wait for Mike's).

 

[grigor]

my stats at 1000bc are ok:

10 cities
2 settlers
2 trireme,
2 caravans
9 warriors
10 techs.

I got HG in 825 and MPE in 525.

Constant war with Carthage led to not enough boat building:

1 ad stats:

17 Cities
23 techs
HG, MPE

2 settlers
3 trireme (this does not look good)
6 vans

defence: 10 warrior, 1 phalanx, 8 pikemen

offence: 1 knight, 2 crusaders

I went for Sun Tzu before MC and only got MC in 300ad after getting the city of Carthage. I switched to Republic in 380.

But things were slow - after a string of years in Fundy I finally switched to Demo at the end and conquered with a pretty big civ in 1866.

There was a lot of "one more turn" playing, so I had a great time despite an inelegant game.

 

[Peaster]

my stats at 1000bc are ok:

10 cities
2 settlers
2 trireme,
2 caravans
9 warriors
10 techs.

I got HG in 825 and MPE in 525.

Let's see... you finished irrigation 8 turns earlier than most, but you have approx 6 fewer cities+settlers in total than Prof G and I. But this isn't so bad before HG, and you have 2 extra vans and probably more warriors. I think prefer having the settlers, but it isn't an easy comparison. Still curious - did you eventually change the swampland under your cities to grass ? I'm not concerned about the rules - just about how your double size 1 idea worked out.

Constant war with Carthage led to not enough boat building: 1 ad stats: 17 Cities,
... HG, MPE .... 3 trireme (this does not look good)...10 warrior, 1 phalanx, 8 pikemen, 1 knight, 2 crusaders ... I went for Sun Tzu before MC

I agree with your assessment - more boats and vans, fewer war machines, would've been more productive for you. But of course I didn't get to see your Carthaginian problems, so no criticism intended.

What are your opinions on early WoWs here ? My MPE was pretty worthless for techs, tribute, etc, but was needed eventually for maps. I thought LH was almost necessary for early trade and expansion, but several players skipped it; so maybe not. Seems everyone likes Mikes, and I can't argue with SunTzu either, but it didn't seem urgent to me (but I had no serious early wars).

I finished in the 800AD to 1100AD period after switching from Demo to soft Fundy (and then to real Fundy). Maybe SoL was a waste, since I got the Fundy tech not long afterwards, and I "lost a turn" to riots even with that WoW ... it never seems to work quite as well as I expect. Lots of Hides trade. I mainly used vet crusaders, built around 800AD after SunTzu, for EC speed, even though a few AI's had musketeers. I was ready to make waves of RRs + cannons, but didn't really need to. The respawn phase was both annoying and interesting, but I won't rant more about that, unless somebody else is interested. Also, can provide a log on request.

 

[Magic_gorter]

I'm between 1250 and 1500 AD and just playing for a landing game. However the Carth's were pretty anoying and I had to attack them. Now they are gone I can finally change to demo. But first I need Bach's which the Sioux build.

I do notice that the other civ's are very slow with research and only the spanish have a lot of boats. It's not an easy map with all those small islands and not much grass....

 

[grigor]

Let's see... you finished irrigation 8 turns earlier than most, but you have approx 6 fewer cities+settlers in total than Prof G and I. But this isn't so bad before HG, and you have 2 extra vans and probably more warriors. I think prefer having the settlers, but it isn't an easy comparison. Still curious - did you eventually change the swampland under your cities to grass ? I'm not concerned about the rules - just about how your double size 1 idea worked out.

I changed two swamps to grass and disbanded one city.

What are your opinions on early WoWs here ? My MPE was pretty worthless for techs, tribute, etc, but was needed eventually for maps. I thought LH was almost necessary for early trade and expansion, but several players skipped it; so maybe not. Seems everyone likes Mikes, and I can't argue with SunTzu either, but it didn't seem urgent to me (but I had no serious early wars).

I got five techs and all maps except Carts from MPE, so that was very valuable. My Carts conquered the Chinese early, so I was battling them on two fronts, the peninsula nearest the Babylonian island and an advanced tribe south of Shanghai. At least I knew where the respawned Americans were - but I finished so late that I didn't need to know.
Mikes was absolutely necessary for building up a large enough civ, even in Monarchy.
Sun Tzu was helpful and almost paid for itself in disbanded barracks from conquered Cart cities.
Leonardo was crucial considering how late I got.
In this map KRC was useful.

Your 4/0/6 strategy is interesting - I never have the guts to turn off science, but obviously if one delivers enough vans it all works out. I think that at some point there isn't much need for science apart from vans. In this game that point seems to come pretty early, like after trade and pottery? Or perhaps after Mono? Or perhaps after Republic? My strategy after the initial phase is still confused in my head.

 

[Peaster]

Your 4/0/6 strategy is interesting - I never have the guts to turn off science, but obviously if one delivers enough vans it all works out. I think that at some point there isn't much need for science apart from vans. In this game that point seems to come pretty early, like after trade and pottery? Or perhaps after Mono? Or perhaps after Republic? My strategy after the initial phase is still confused in my head.

To me, it is clear that taxes are better for growth than beakers, except in a few situations where lack of science will cause immediate problems. For example, with 6 cities in despotism you need monarchy asap. With 12 in monarchy you need pottery for HG. The Trade adv is often urgent, too, but after that, it is much more efficient to get beakers from van deliveries than scientists. With lean EC, you probably don't even need that, but in a big game like this one, you do.

My thinking here was: this will be a big game (special rules, large map, Diety, restarts on) so the first goal is growth to about 30-50 cities by 1AD or asap; I wasn't sure how the rules would affect the timing. That's why I'm counting people's city+settler total in 1000BC; to me, that seems a key stat. For growth, I will rely mainly on standard ICS until the Trade adv, and then shift towards Big Trade (republic, lots of boats supported by lots of ports, LH + many Hides if poss) I'd have prefered Col and an STC, but lost that WoW to an AI. I'll continue ICS, while my vans pay for RBs of more settlers, vans, boats and WoWs. Later in the game, I had many large cities, with markets and approx 6 tax collectors each, supporting this system.

I am not 100% sure about timing mono --> republic, but feel repu makes sense when enough cele-growth is possible to justify the extra support costs (mainly shields, but also food). Roughly, I want about 5 size-3 van-producing cities, and "enough WoWs" before the switch. Unfortunately, I don't have much feel for happiness / celebration issues, and often misjudge "enough WoWs".

I played the next phase tentatively. Probably after monotheism, I should've focused on far-flung outposts, SunTzu, conquest, and anti-respawn strategy [asap]. I wasn't sure if the game should go as far as indus / corporation (it did) or if I could stop science at the Nav / Inv barrier, and win as is, with triremes/etc. I went for early Demo, suffered until Mag'm...Corpn, and then things were easy again. I used scientists to get thru this nasty period asap. Better = Mag before Demo, or maybe even skip the Demo govt and beeline for Fundy. At some point in Big-EC's, you can see the game is just busted, and not much can go wrong. Here, Fundy + SunTzu + 50 cities + 40 transports = the end.

Seems we mostly agree about WoWs such as HG, MPE, Mike's, SunTzu and Leo; I probably had slightly bad luck with MPE/techs, and generally don't like KRC, but it can be good in certain cases. I slightly wanted Pyr, Mag's and JSB - and took the 1st 2 from the Carths in my 1st conquest (they were pretty weak in my game) and I never quite got to JSB, IIRC.

Definitely a fun game. I hope Magic can find other ways to handicap the humans in such a natural way. Or even just repeat this method.

 

[Magic_gorter]

Definitely a fun game. I hope Magic can find other ways to handicap the humans in such a natural way. Or even just repeat this method.

Sounds like a challenge for me.....

 

[Peaster]

Well, I guess we can challenge each other a bit then. But you know that I don't insist on special rules or maps. I am not tired of vanilla civ2 yet !

 

[Magic_gorter]

Finished my game. I decided to play with a big empire after a while because I had the feeling I was growing to slow to play for gold.

My spaceship landed in 1907 AD with only orange civ (new civ) left with 1 city. To bad they decided to attack me at the end. This caused a lower score of several 100 points....

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I submitted earlier today. I went for conquest. I made a mistake early on colonizing the land area between Chinese and Carthaginians eventually preventing their warfare which kept both weak. My first real attack was on Beijing and was such a big failure it set me back centuries. I lost 4 Crusaders and 2 Knights and did not have anything left for a second attack. Meanwhile most rivals got Feudalism and some Gunpowder.

I next went after Spanish who were technologically the farthest behind. Madrid fell during transition from Republic to Democracy and the rest of the cities were bought off. I expanded a lot during this phase and built my forces up. Transition to fundamentalism came in 1590 and the rivals were attacked one after another. With Bach, Michelangelo, and a large empire my income was so high I did not bother waiting for capturing capitals before bribing cities. In fact, Celtic capital was the last of their cities to fall and most others were bribed away. I had no restarts.

+0520 Domestic hides for 62.
+0540 Domestic silver for 90. None crusader from hut.
+0560 Domestic copper for 52. Philosophy -> Chinese -> Feudalism. Navigation -> Celts -> Bridge Building.
+0580 Spanish build King Richard's. -> Physics. Spice to Chinese for 126. Tell Wilaya and Umma founded.
+0600 Physics -> Sanitation.
+0620 5 barbarian horsemen from hut. My crusader kills one. Adab founded.
+0640 Barbarians kill my crusader.
+0660 Domestic Wine for 95.
+0680 Germans build Great Library. None Crusader from hut.
+0720 Telloh and Nina founded. Domestic Spice for 45. T4L5S1
+0740 Ebla and Canal founded. Beads to Berlin for 240.
+0760 Domestic Wine for 72.
+0780 Sanitation -> Magnetism. Wine to German Leipzig for 340.
+0800 Domestic Coal for 125.
+0820 Spanish build Lighthouse.
+0840 Beads to Spanish for 116. Spent 696g to beat Sioux to Leo. Advanced tribe founds Issus on continent 19. Five barbarian horsemen form hut. My crusader kills one.
+0860 Barbarians kill my None crusader. Leo built. Magnetism -> Democracy. Dye to Shanghai for 112.
+0880 Chinese sneak attack and kill a caravan. Domestic Hides for 70. Musketeer from hut. Beads to Spanish for 120. 50g to Spanish to spare my caravan. Invention -> Celts -> Chivalry. Navigation -> Sioux -> Gunpowder. 2 Chinese units killed. T5L5S0
+0900 2 Chinese catapults killed. Beads to Spanish for 96.
+0920 Wine to Berlin for 220. Spent 380g on Magellan.
+0940 Magellan built. Beads to Germans for 164. T4L5S1.
+0960 Germans build Great Wall. Chinese kill a caravan. Celts build Sun Tzu. Democracy -> Theology. Domestic silver for 122.
+0980 Chinese build Copernicus. Chinese reach peace with Carthaginians. Domestic Hides for 60. Lost 4 Crusaders and 2 Knights in attack on Beijing defended by at least a pikeman and an archer. Killed Chinese elephant.
+1000 25g from hut. Chinese Nanking bribed for 535. Got 67g, Horseback riding, an aqueduct, a settler, a ship, and 3 soldiers. Accepted Chinese offer of 200g for peace. I cannot attack them right away anyway.

Status at +1000
Population: 10.1M; Cities: 30; Trade routes: 32D16F; Government: Republic
Gold: 84; Cost per turn: 53; Total advances: 36; Production: 137MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco, Pyramids, Michelangelo, Magellan, Leo
Units: 11 Settlers (1 None), 9 Musketeers (3 None), 5 Crusaders (2 None), 2 Knights, 1 Caravel, 6 Galleons, 2 Diplomats, 7 Caravans
Celt: 9 cities, 22 techs; Hanging Gardens, Sun Tzu; Allied with me
German: 4 cities, 29 techs; Great Library, Great Wall
Spanish: 5 cities, 17 techs; Lighthouse, King Richard
Chinese: 3 cities, 24 techs; Colossus, Copernicus;
Carthaginian: 3 cities, 23 techs;
Sioux: 8 cities, 25 techs

+1020 T3L6S1
+1040 4 barbarian horsemen from hut.
+1060 Barbarians kill my crusader. Cunaxa founded.
+1120 Statue of Liberty built. Hides to Spanish for 76. T2L6S2
+1140 Spanish build Oracle. Sioux build Shakespeare. Theology -> Leadership. Coal to Germans for 305.
+1160 None Musketeer from hut. Wine to Germans for 132.
+1180 Kerman and Sirjan founded. 100g from hut.
+1200 100g from hut.
+1220 Leadership -> University. Banking -> German (2) -> University. Nomad from hut. Domestic deliveries for 100, 42.
+1240 -> Chemistry. T4L6S0
+1260 Capua founded. T3L6S1
+1280 Barbarian horsemen from hut. Advanced tribe found Turin of size 3 with 3 structures.
+1300 Dragoon miraculous ly survives 4 barbarian horsemen and turns vet. Genoa and Babol founded.
+1320 Canal2 founded.
+1360 Chemistry -> Metallurgy. Coal to Berlin for 580. Wool to Chinese for 216. Domestic Spice for 96. Spanish Trireme bought for 164g. Celts cancelled alliance over my refusal to share Gunpowder. Revolution started. Demanded tribute from all and got 225 from Sioux.
+1380 Another round of demands for tribute yielded war with Celts and Spanish and another 225 from Sioux. Spanish Toledo razed for 32g and Wheel. Silver to Chinese for 270. Salamis founded. Democracy established. T4L5S1
+1400 Metallurgy -> Explosives. Domestic deliveries for 124, 117. Lisbon founded. 2 Archers and 1 pikeman defending Madrid killed by 3 Dragoons and the city taken for King Richards, Lighthouse, Oracle, 137g, Warrior Code, and Granary. Senate hands Spanish peace treaty.
+1420 Salt to Chinese for 336. Domestic deliveries for 270.
+1440 Explosives -> Conscription. Hamburg founded.
+1460 Galleon survives Celt caravel.
+1480 Spanish Cordoba subverted for 2x166. Got 78g, soldier, settler, granary.
+1500 Hides to Spanish for 92. Spanish Valencia subverted for 2x308.

+1510 Spanish Seville subverted for 2x552. Spanish civilization destroyed.
+1530 Conscription -> Electricity. Bach built. Deliveries to Celts for 352, 226. Domestic deliveries for 196, 185. Turkestan founded. 100g from hut.
+1540 Electricity -> Tactics. Salzburg and Bergen founded.
+1550 Celt Elephant kills Galleon. Domestic deliveries for 165. Granada founded.
+1560 Celt elephant kills caravan. Domestic deliveries for 146, 136. Wool to Chinese for 126. Ghent and Kharg founded.
+1570 Rasht and Toledo founded.
+1580 Tactics -> Economics. Coal to Beijing for 300. Domestic deliveries for 122, 185. Frigate sinks two Celt caravels. Revolution started. Carthaginians declare war over my tribute demand. Killed a Carthaginian unit and lost a Cavalry.
+1590 Cavalry in fort survives two Carthaginian attacks. Fundamentalism established. T4L5S1. Cannon, Destroyer, and wounded cavalry kill defenders of Carthage. Engineer takes it over for 384g, barracks, and City walls! Accepted Carthaginian offer of 700g for cease fire. Carthaginian Utica subverted for 2x336. Got 17g, barracks, and two soldiers. Carthaginian Malaca bought for 275g. Got 10g, marketplace, soldier, and settler. Chinese Canton bribed for 1140. Got 266g, 2 soldiers, and 3 structures.
+1600 Toronto founded. Chinese Tsingtao razed. 2 Celtic units killed and lost a Frigate. Domestic deliveries for 165, 48.
+1610 Celts bribe away Nippur and take Conscription. Nippur bought back for 182g. Got 83g and got my Engineers back; lost a cavalry in the process. Hides to Cardiff for 352. Caralis captured for 36g. Carthaginian civilization destroyed. Maghreb founded. Lost 4 Cavalry and a frigate in attack on Cardiff before giving up.
+1620 Economics -> Refrigeration. Sydney founded. Deliveries to Celts for 380, 590.
+1630 Domestic deliveries for 297. Shush and Helper Mazan1 founded. 3 Celtic units killed. 350g from Sioux.
+1640 Refrigeration -> Amphibious Warfare. Adam Smith built. Domestic deliveries for 228, 202. Gold to Celts for 546. Herat and Amol founded.
+1650 Sioux BigMound subverted for 2x328. Got 23g, Railroad, soldier, and barracks. Anzali founded. 3 Celtic units killed.
+1660 Ottowa, Canal3, and Shiraz founded.
+1670 Celtic Rhymney and Kells bribed for 756, 484. Sioux declare war instead of moving their troops. One Sioux unit killed. Domestic deliveries for 92.
+1680 Amphibious warfare -> Industrialization. Vet Cavalry easily kill Beijing's two defenders. The city is captured for 271g, city walls, and Copernicus. Shanghai bribed for 900g. Got 252g, Colossus, 4 soldiers, and 2 structures. Chinese civilization destroyed. Sioux Stony Lake bribed for 864g. Got 50g, Steam Engine, 3 soldiers, 3 structures, and an Engineer. Domestic deliveries for 188.
+1690 Domestic deliveries for 42, 84, 74, 106, 262, 110. Celtic Carmarthen bribed for 1410. Got Sun Tzu, 78g, soldier, and 3 structures. Vienna founded.
+1700 Celtic Armagh bribed for 1441. Beads to Sioux for 350.
+1710 Industrialization -> Corporation. Celt Tintagel and Caernarfonbribed for 280, 1664. Foreign deliveries for 84, 174, 47. Domestic deliveries for 180, 198.
+1720 Amirkola and Melbourne founded. 100g from hut. Celt Caerphilly captured. Celt Cork bribed for 658. Lost 7 cavalry in attack on Cardiff.
+1730 After 2 more losses Cardiff is finally taken . Got Hanging Gardens. Celtic civilization destroyed. Canal4 and Shushtar founded. Domestic deliveries for 177. German Berlin taken. T0L5S5.
+1740 Sioux sink a transport with 2 caravans aboard. Darwin built. Corporation -> Steel -> Genetic Engineering. T4L5S1. Domestic deliveries for 272, 72, 176, 200, 82. Sioux capital captured. Sioux SlimButts bribed for 830. Germans are in democracy! Lightly defended German Konigsberg and Leipzig captured.
+1750 Sioux build Eiffel. Sioux Ironclad sinks a Frigate and 2 units on board. Domestic deliveries for 175, 160, 43. Foreign deliveries for 215, 120. Dezful founded. Musketeer from hut. German Hamburg razed. German civilization destroyed. Sioux Wounded Knee bribed for 324. Got Eiffel. Sioux Cedar Creek captured for Shakespeare.
+1752 Genetic Engineering -> Electronics. Suffrage built. Midland and Ahvaz founded. 100g from hut. Foreign deliveries for 94, 228, 155, 70, 26. ThreeForks bribed for 560.
+1754 Cure for Cancer built. Montreal and Munich founded. Advanced tribe founds Spahan. Domestic deliveries for 92. Sioux Dead Buffalo razed. Other Sioux cities bought for 448, 295.
+1756 T1L8S1. Last Sioux city bribed for 114. Sioux civilization destroyed.

 

[Peaster]

Well, congrats on finishing up. Did you already describe what happened at Beijing ? Sounds like a disaster all right, but maybe something we could learn from. Just at a glance, it seems to me you had low chances of conquest before 1000AD or so because you just didn't have enough cities to dominate the map. After that, your chances were pretty good. Too simplistic ?

You didn't get respawns bc they stop at 1500AD IIRC.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I did: "Lost 4 Crusaders and 2 Knights in attack on Beijing defended by at least a pikeman and an archer." I cannot think of any lessons. I could have peeked at Beijing with a diplomat first, but if what I observed was all the defenders it had, even behind city walls, I would have still attacked. I did expect to lose at least half of those units but not all of them.

I absolutely had no chance of conquest, nor any plan of it, before 1000. Attack on Beijing was my first aggression and it happened in 980.

 

[Peaster]

Sorry ... but I'm still not clear on Beijing. Did it have city walls or any terrain advantages ? If not, you were very very unlucky and shouldn't try to learn anything from that bad experience. If it did have walls (and Feudalism/pikemen apparently), then maybe the attack wasn't so wise. Tough call. With 6 vet attackers, only 2 defenders on grass, and no back-up in sight, I'd probably attack too. With less strength or less info, I might bring in a few dips to take down the walls. IMO that's slower, but safer - and one failed multi-attack can really hurt your momentum.