GOTM #12 *Spoilers* Thread

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
This was my first monarch game played thru to anything other than defeat, it is also my first full game with the Zulu or any militaristic civ. I found out the big differences in the Monarch game - you can't mess around building wonders or even most improvements till you are BIG.

I beg to differ. These are the early wonders I built in my game:
- the Pyramids
- the Oracle
- the Great Library
- the Great Wall
- the Hanging Gardens
all in BC times.
You are not obliged to wage war just because you have the militaristic trait.

In my present deity game (tournament, unable to finish in time though), I still got both the Pyramids and the Great Library.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Are you kidding? Did you do this with GL? I can't picture the conditions necessary to get all of those, it was not the urge to make war but the extreme slowness of playing with non-accelerated production that kept my early wonders down. Did they all come in the same city that you had shielded in? What is your system???

 

[cracker]

Finally made it to a total controlling position in the mid-game, so I can look at the spoiler and contribute.

The Random Number generator is just part of the game, but I am getting a pay back for lots of favorable RNG strings in recent months because this game has been so streaky that I would have probably trashed it if it were not a GOTM. While everything is averaging out, the streaks have been totally a night mare disruption:

Examples:

Indian 3 hit spearman defending a pop 2 town on the open tundra defeats two veteran horsemen and one veteran swordsman without loosing a hit point an he gets promoted to elite. Next attack with four veteran horsemen, the first horseman defeats the 5-hit spearman without loosing a point and the second horseman defeats an unfortified 3-hit spearman without loosing a point.


Later in the game, 4 veteran knights attack a pop 1 Chinese city defended by a visible vet spearman. It is a core city so I am betting on two or three military units in town. Turns out there were four military units and all four knights won there battles with at most one hit point lost. All four knight promoted to elite, one right after the other. The captured city contained 2 settlers and 3 workers.

Next Chinese city, using the 4 elite knights from the previous battle healed to full strength plus three additional veteran knights. The town is pop 5 on grassland with no river but defended by a regular pikeman. First two elite knights die with only one hit point knocked off the pikeman and the pike promotes to vet at 3/4 strength. Third knight is a veteran and retreats at redline after no effect. Fourth knight is a veteran and retreats at redline after knocking off one point but promoting the pike to elite at 3/5 strength. Fifth knight is elite and redlines the pike but retreats after it is also redlined. A regular spearman rises to defend and is killed by the last veteran knight. The remaining elite knight attacks the 1/5 pike and and kills him after loosing two hits but gets no leader. A regular 3/3 chinese archer stands in the town and laughs at the pile of broken knights.

I made an early army with two horsemen and an impi (weird but all I had at that location and I was looking for a quick early victory). That army had 12 hit points and went to redline against a veteran spearman defender in a pop 2 town in flatland. First time I every saw an army totally retreat instead of die. Took about 4 or 5 turns to totally heal that army and try again for the cheesy victory to enable the Heroic Epic. Attacked a regular spearman in the open defending a settler with this 12 hit point army. Redlined the army and the spearman and retreated again. Sheeeeesh!! Healed the Army again and kileld an archer to get the victory but still lost 3 hits. This Army has the Impi showing on top so I don't know it this is some sleazy effect due to the UU factor, but I definitely will never put another Impi in an early army just in case that could be the cause.

I doubt my finsh will be fast enough for any kudos, but this one will go down in the record book as freaky AI crap from the get go.

Got bupkis from early goody huts but my scouts watched Chinese, and Indian warriors pop huts just as we got in sight on three ocasions.

The idiot Ghandi had to die because he stuck four settlements right up my beauttocks on the tundra while he ignored the grassland to his east toward the babs. Two of his tundra downs seemed to deliberately miss the fish and game bonuses so I will wait to see if some great resource mystically appears there.

China had Iron for a thousand years but built no swordsmen, what's up with that.

At one point in time, China had nine teams of a spearman+settler tromping through our territory and reversing very two or three turns. I did not give Mao a ROP because the intent was to isolate him. It looked like the freakin' Macarena goin' on. There was no real open territory for the settlers to go into anywhere on the map except a small appendage south of the Babylon isthmus so my only guess is the Chinese traded maps with the Babs and then a moving Bab unit would clear an open path to the tundra peninsula that seemed to have a gem on it and all the Chinese settlers would beeline for the gems. Then another unit would block the path and all the settlers and their speardude dance partners would turn back; cha cha cha. I had to kill the Chinese just to clear the roads.

 

[Serg]

I don't fight in GOTM12 before 750BC. It's not effectively because enemies have a litle number of cities and impossible to cupture it. Up to this time I found 14 cities, connect its with the roads and got 2 luxury resource and the horse. I hadn't iron but I don't like the swordsmens and most time don't build its at all. I prefer the horsemens and some Impies for attacking. The late BC years (late Ancient Times and erly Middle Eges) are optimal for mass attacking the enemies: they din't fill free territory yet and build almost only settlers with 1 spearmen per settler and not build horsemens and swordsmens at all. Only if 2 civs placed near with each other they begin war. In my GOTM12 other civ are very peaceful and only Persians declared war on me.

As soon as I change my government to Monarchy I began war. My first war was with India and second with China (it begun before the end of war with India). I signed ROP with them and don't met with opposition. I built FP in Delphi from my first GL. Further I built only horsemens and some settlers for founding cities between old India's and Babylon's territory.

I signed ROP with Babylon in exchange of Monarchy and move my force trough its territory in direction the Persia. When I reached Persia them declare war on me though had only 4 archers and 1 horsemen (My forces near Persia contained 34 horsemens and 6 Impies). They attacked me first and in first battle I got my second GL in defense. While I was capturing Persians cities I begin war with Babylon by my second echelon of horsemens. I killed Persia and Babylon almost simultaneously in first AD turns. I rushed Sun Tzu and Handing Gardens and harbor in Persians cities and have many happy faces in my cyties (7/8 luxuries connected) Zimbabwe has all 12 citizen happy.

I signed ROP with Japan and France in exchange of Feodalism and I'm almost ready to war. I mean go to conquest victory regardless of the fact that milking the game will give more points.

 

[Yndy]

I totally missed my first milking game by mistakenly triggering domination in 1390.

Does Mapstat has an error margin ?

I checked mapstat in 1380: 75 tiles to domination.
Then in 1390 I had some cultural expansion of 4 or 5 cities but I should't have been more than 60 tiles.
I checked 1385 and still had 70 tiles to domination.
So there was either a 10 tile error or my nominal expansion triggered some "bridges" being built between close borders.

Anyway I wil probably have a top 100 score and no satisfaction on this GOTM. Well this being my third GOTM I will get to see my global ranking correctly.

Guys it's getting worst, I'm starting to lose my interest in the Game: I'm in a position that can win all (maybe most) of the games at difficulties below emperor but can very hard win on deity (managed to get good winning positions with Iroquis, Persia and Aztecs, but only finished one game). With other civs I abandon the games halfway through or worst lose without a chance of winning.

Now GOTM still interest me but please let's play on Emperor and beyond.

 

[Cruise]

Originally posted by Yndy

Guys it's getting worst, I'm starting to lose my interest in the Game: I'm in a position that can win all (maybe most) of the games at difficulties below emperor but can very hard win on deity

I had this problem too. Winning easily on emperor and below, but getting your ass kicked on deity. Now i am able to beat deity more and more often. But still i can't say i like it really, because the AI starts with such huge advantages it doesn't feel right.
In 2 weeks PTW will be out, so let's see what that brings. I'd love to play multiplayer!

 

[Iver-P]

Just submitted. Military defeat in 1295 AD 748 points. Monarch is just beyond my ability at this time.
Scouts discovered most of the land early. Goody huts provided 1 settler, three or four tech, a couple warriors, and a couple maps.
Expansion was soon limited by China to the North and West, and by India to the East.
I built barricks in most cities early on and upgraded most of my warriors to swordsmen after I connected Iron. Then took them up to war against China. That didn't go as well as I had hoped, but I did get a couple cities. later two more Chinese cities culture flipped to me. Leaving China with only three cities on the far western tip on the continent.
Meantime, tech growth was s-l-o-w. Traded some luxuries for tech, but rarely had more than world map to trade. I tried to keep China as isolated as possible. They never even got horses. but did get Iron from someone. After gunpowder, India did trade saltpeter one time. That allowed me to upgrade a few musketmen. Never made it out of the middle ages.
I tried to attack China again now with knights, but they had stationed like a GAZILLION pikeman in their cities who were just to strong for them.
Then came the quick and decisive end. France rode in from the east with cavelry. Pulled up to my eastern-most city and declared WAR. This was totally unprovoked. I had always paid tribute to Joan, and everyone else. Soon India joined in, then Japan. I wasn't keeping track but I think they finished me off in less than five turns.
Appears that first France saw easy pickings. Joan had just finished off Persia to her west and turned her eyes on me. WHY? She had to ride all the way through Babelon and part of India to get to me. She also shipped a few troops to attack in the NW.

IS THERE ANYTHING I CAN DO TO AVOID SUCH A SUDDEN AND UTTER DEFEAT IN THE FUTURE?

 

[col]

Expand as fast as you can. When you cant expand any more, build an army and pick your first target carefully.

I looked at what I would gain by taking out China - poor quality land - no room to expand north and left them alone.

I took out India first. Rich land.

Allowed me to expand all way to east. A FP in India will influence any cities that I might have further east. I captured then built several very strong cities in Indias lands.

Strategically controlling the eastern choke point allows you to defend easily while switching the point of your attack quickly.

I left China alone until later. It was a simple mop-up. They werent going to go any where....

 

[Serg]

Originally posted by Iver-P
IS THERE ANYTHING I CAN DO TO AVOID SUCH A SUDDEN AND UTTER DEFEAT IN THE FUTURE?

You must grow up as quick as possible and found several core cities (>=10) with low corruption and high resource. Then you will be able build strong force and CAPTURE nearest enemies. Further you may select different strategy but other civ will be affraid you. Enough number of cities give you money and science for tech leading. How many cities have you in 1000BC? If less then 10 then your growth was slow and you hadn't enough power to conquer other civs.

 

[willemvanoranje]

first gotm since.....gotm 1 I think back then I did pretty good, but I haven't actually been playing a lot since then, so my plan is survival, and I'm doing very well. Military conquest won't succeed, so it's all on the spaceship now, hopefully somewhere 18th century...

 

[BlueWire]

If the GOTM gets switched to only Emperor or Diety (cringe) that will kill much of the fun for many players, like me. Granted, after several games, most people should be able to handle emperor, but not everyone has been playing Civ3 for 6 months. Eventhough I played dozens of games and easily won at the highest levels on Civ2, that was 7 years ago. GOTM12 was the first full game I've played since then, and I got clobbered when persia rolled their tanks all over me.
New players should be welcomed. That is what I liked most about this site when I found it. (it got me to buy Civ3 and start playing again). If the games are all at top levels, newbies dont/can't play.

 

[Yndy]

BlueWire,

I didn't mean to say it as threat, i'm only advocating my opinion, i don't have a say in how gotm is designed, but i hope that my comments would make the ones designing the games consider higher difficulty. If they do, i'll feel better, if they don't, i'll get a little bored playing and maybe not at all.
I strongly encourage you to play in the future and maybe higher difficulty levels too ( my first losses at emperor and many of my deity losses where fun for me).

Now which AI civ did you all found to be most threatening in this GOTM?

I've seen some saying Persia but in my case it was Indian and then France.

 

[BlueWire]

Should maybe have 2 levels of GOTM.

Definitely found Persia to be the real problem, but only at the end. I goofed by not attacking earlier. doh.
I strung defenders along the 5ish tile bottleneck at the west to keep china boxed in, and India was always friendly and peaceful. Earlier, Persia was busy fighting Japan and France, so they stayed on their side of the montains.
I just got tanks and thought I had time to build up. Defeated China, and started on India. Then, boom, Persia finishes fighting with Japan, and instead of turning all their attention on France, they made peace with France and sent a hundred tanks at me. They came through what had been india, and by ship through what had been china. from first battle to defeat was about 7 turns.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Originally posted by Iver-P

IS THERE ANYTHING I CAN DO TO AVOID SUCH A SUDDEN AND UTTER DEFEAT IN THE FUTURE? [/B]

I noticed you mention choosing the warrior to swordsmen route in your early warmaking. Better to put Impi in your cities where you can (and I learned in this game, don't even bother defending your interior cities later on) and use the defensive units (Impi is real nice because it can keep pace with riders and upgrades all the way) plus archers (IMO the best attack against spearmen) and/or riders. Pop rush temples, libraries, and, if possible, aquaducts, and for sure, military units. I like to prepare riders, mass them near an enemy but in one of my barracked cities, and then upgrade them all to knight and attack immediately while I have a tech edge, then do the same again when I get cavalry.

None of these Civs were particularly threatening, although France did, for the first time in any game I have ever played, seriously out culture me, and France and Persia grabbed almost all the early and middle wonders.

 

[Dominix]

Originally posted by Yndy
BlueWire,

I didn't mean to say it as threat, i'm only advocating my opinion, i don't have a say in how gotm is designed, but i hope that my comments would make the ones designing the games consider higher difficulty. If they do, i'll feel better, if they don't, i'll get a little bored playing and maybe not at all.
I strongly encourage you to play in the future and maybe higher difficulty levels too ( my first losses at emperor and many of my deity losses where fun for me).

Now which AI civ did you all found to be most threatening in this GOTM?

I've seen some saying Persia but in my case it was Indian and then France.

Pardon me if I'm wrong but isn't this the point of the tournament, to allow the same game to be played at a range of difficulties.

 

[Serg]

Originally posted by BlueWire
Should maybe have 2 levels of GOTM.

There is tournament game on this forum. Several skill levels for players presents there.

 

[Greg Loader]

Originally posted by Greg Loader
Oddible, I'm sorry your having trouble with Leaders. I ended up getting 11 Great Leaders.

And now having said this, I get no great leaders in the tournament game (3-2) which is a conquest war fest!!!

So let this be a lesson to others. Never 'brag' about how many leaders you have just gotten. It will surely jinx your next game.

Greg

Oddible, apparently things even out in the long run.

 

[la fayette]

Two sided game for me.

Bright side: I did almost exactly what I planned.
Built many scouts and tipped many huts.
Fought the Indians first, in order to get closer to the center of the island and because of the poor quality of the terrain in China.
Fought the Japs next, before they managed to build samurais, then the Chinese before they managed to build Chinese riders, then the Babs in order to have full control of the Western part of the island before attacking the strong Persians.

Dark side: I did that much more slowly than expected.
This was mostly due to a very late GL#1 (590AD, after many many battles won by elite units).
Hard luck: this is the third game in a row where I get a late GL.
IMO the luck factor related to GLs is even stronger than the one related to huts (or strange combat results... hello cracker! ). But this is a game, and I find it fun to have some luck implied, even if I hate it when luck isn't on my side.

Conquest in 1230AD (score 4908).

 

[willemvanoranje]

My first priority was the elimination of the Indians (since they attacked me first), which succeeded (althought the finald attack was made by the Chinese). The damn Chinese filled up a hole in my territory, but I got 2 of those cities by culture. The Persians are the strongest and they wanted a mutual protection pact (in addition to some techs) which dragged me in a war with the Bab's. The war gained me 2 or 3 Bab cities though, since I already had an army of knights preparing for an invasion of China. Then the same pact dragged me in a war with the French, I never killed a single French unit though...too far from my bed Then I finally invaded the Chinese, and that war isn't over that long, they only have one city left distant from me. Then the Persians and I attacked the Japs, my ally only took ex-French cities from them though, the mainland is mine I don't think I'll end higher than the Persians though. They're about 300 points ahead of me, but I'm fine with that. I'm just 1 or 2 techs behind the Persians and gaining new territory to make money and science of. Maybe a space race is possible... on top of that, most modern wonders are mine so maybe diplo victory is possible as well.

 

[Serg]

My first war was also against India because they found Madras very close to my capitol and built temple. Like Smoking mirror's map.