GOTM 122 Spoiler

[mackerel]

Clearly what we need here is a duel to the death.
Seriously though, as somebody who hasn't fully assimilated the GOTM score rules or truly mastered either style of play, I'm amazed that any comparison can be made at all. Calling any strategy "best" requires some context - it's a very different discussion if we're only talking about GOTM score than if we're debating the one size fits all solution for every Civ2 game. Basically we have two strategies that "always" win, and a formula that's balanced enough to make this discussion possible.

That said, I'd really like to see a GOTM that starts in a (normal player's) hopeless situation, outnumbered and under siege, and see how the experts pull out of it. I'd imagine several of us haven't seen enemy tanks in our territories in years.

 

[grigor]

I'm just happy to see a clash of ideas in Civ II in 2011!!!!

I am most interested in early game strategies, and I note in Starlifter's beautiful logs that he has not yet assimilated some of the more recent adaptations regarding the fastest way to his beloved Demo. Keeping the NONE settler has been proven a second best strategy for some years now.

That being said, once he gets into PD his machine is a thing of beauty.

But it will never win a green star

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I don't feel I've had much competition for Gold from PD players. For whatever reasons, I have more Golds stars than Starlifter + Jokemaster + Ali combined.

That is an understatement. Peaster has nearly a quarter (27 out of the 113) gold medals awarded. The closest competitor has only 14.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

That said, I'd really like to see a GOTM that starts in a (normal player's) hopeless situation, outnumbered and under siege, and see how the experts pull out of it. I'd imagine several of us haven't seen enemy tanks in our territories in years.

I have recently designed a map that gives you much of what you desire. I have not had a chance to describe it in the forums here yet; I guess I will do that now.

 

[Peaster]

I'm glad to see the PD debate is winding down, as I'm not sure we were arguing about anything substantial. I especially agree with Grigor's post, and that PD results would be higher with more attention to ICS, including the size-1 trick. For those interested in Civ2 trends since 2002, also consider the Theory of Interest, which has probably had some good affect on playing styles, at least on mine.

Regarding Mackerel's idea, I say let's try it. Thinking back, there have been a few attempts already, which were interesting, but not 100% successful. IIRC one was gotm 50 or so, Aztecs on an Earth map. But the Aztecs were not weak enough for the idea to make a strong impression. I think there have been several gotms like that. Another example was a tiny-island map. In my game, the AI attacked out of the blue very early, won easily, and essentially forced me to quit.

It'll be hard to make the AI strong enough without creating a huge luck factor, since AI behavior is quite unpredictable, but maybe that's OK. Or, with an accelerated start, there might be less luck. There are many good scenarios that achieve this idea.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I'm glad to see the PD debate is winding down ...

Down perhaps, but not dead yet. While you are the undisputed leader by a long shot in GOTM hall of fame, you (and I) rose up the ranks in HOF in total or partial absence of super players like Starlifter, Smash, Duke of M., golem, grigor, ... The one game Starlifter played against us, GOTM 68, he trounced us with a GOTM score of 623 vs. 423 for you and 313 for me. I am looking forward to more matches now that he is playing again and so is grigor, not to mention a whole bunch of new quite talented players.

 

[Peaster]

Hmmm... you probably should've just let it wind down.

GOTM 68 was a very special map (Ringworld) in which we started with [almost] all the techs including Demo. IIRC, for all practical purposes, it was a test of Democracy skills, and it is no surprise that PD players won (you didn't mention that Duke came in second). So, I'm afraid your example is about as relevant as Grigor's joke that PD doesn't win Green.

Jokemaster's example, GOTM 118, also seems pretty irrelevant. This was the Labyrinth, again a highly unusual map, in which ICS was virtually impossible. Also, the winner had "unbelievable" hut luck (your words).

Duke played many GOTMs after I started, around GOTM 45, and he had some impressive results, including some on normal maps. He didn't post much, but I assume he was a PD player. Unfortunately, he tended not to compete in the same GOTMs that I did, so his successes don't prove much to me. I'm not sure, but don't think Smash, Golem or Grigor are/were PD players, so I'm not sure why you mentioned them.

I was interested in this kind of question a few years ago, and played GOTM 16 (unofficially) as a test of modern play - or mine anyway - against the old. I "won" over Smash and Starlifter and about 20 others, on a normal map, without ever going into Demo (IIRC). See the spoiler, if interested. I have never tried to infer too much from that game, but it's more relevant to our current not-quite-dead debate than GOTMs 68 or 118. It suggests to me that "PD flat-out crushes other methods" is an overstatement.

I am sure there are examples of GOTMs in which I played for Gold on a normal map and failed, probably even to a PD player. I concede that, and you don't need to dig-up an example. But seeing PD players struggle to find one has been fun.

Anyway, I agree with your final comments. I am glad Starlifter is back, and I totally respect him, and PD, and am also happy about our new players.