GOTM 20 Final Spoiler
- Thread starter ainwood
- Start date
Harbourboy
Deity
After a really nice start taking on Roosevelt and Gandhi early, my game fell apart when I decided to attack Mansa. My stack of catapults took one of his cities, but I really should have razed it because a sea of knights and macemen easily took it back, shattering my army at the same time. They then proceeded to dismantle my empire piece by piece because I had nothing to counter them with. I twice had to offer a city to get peace with Mansa.
The amazing thing is that I survived at all. It is amazing how productive two cities can be when not burdened down by maintenance costs. Mansa not being the aggressive type did not press home his advantage, so my last two cities pottered away in the background until the inevitable spaceship was launched in the early 1900s.
Not sure what I could have done differently, but probably going after Mansa earlier. The map was very small, so just taking one or two cities earlier would have been a significant percentage of his empire and might have slowed him down enough. But that wouldn't have helped deal with isolated Hatsepshut. So I guess this just means that Immortal level is still beyond my capabilities.
Another fun game though.
The amazing thing is that I survived at all. It is amazing how productive two cities can be when not burdened down by maintenance costs. Mansa not being the aggressive type did not press home his advantage, so my last two cities pottered away in the background until the inevitable spaceship was launched in the early 1900s.
Not sure what I could have done differently, but probably going after Mansa earlier. The map was very small, so just taking one or two cities earlier would have been a significant percentage of his empire and might have slowed him down enough. But that wouldn't have helped deal with isolated Hatsepshut. So I guess this just means that Immortal level is still beyond my capabilities.
Another fun game though.
When I ended my first spoiler, circa 1AD, I had just finished up my second war with Mansa. He only had 3 cities left, 2 in the northeastern corner of the continent, and 1 between Washington and Timbuktu on the desert coast.
Gandhi was blowing me away in technology, I hadn't met Hatty yet, and Roosevelt was dead.
I proceeded to build the much needed infrastructure to attempt to catch up to Gandhi in tech...and apparently, to catch up to Mansa in tech as well, because he surpassed me as well while I was pillaging his lands!
Slowly, my tech pace sped up, and around 1000AD, I met Hatty. She was less advanced than Gandhi, but since neither of them had anyone to trade with, they were teching slower than Immortal level AI usually does...albeit, much faster than me still.
Things passed quietly, for the most part, until 1500AD. A couple bumps were Gandhi managing to flip Washington from me, despite a bomb, several temples, a cathedral, and the Hermitage being built there...along with housing half my mobile army. Around 1500AD, I had managed to learn Chemistry and Steel, and in a calculated move, stopped research to upgrade my entire army. Timbuktu was starving and slowing flipping back to Mansa, and I had finally caught up to him in tech. I used my newly upgraded army of about 25 Grenadiers and 15 Cannons to declare war on Mansa...I knew I'd be in a bit of a mess when I did, because he had a higher power rating than me, and only 3 cities. I knew his cities would be massed full of rifles, but wasn't too worried about rifles in the field, thanks to the +50% of my Grenadiers.
I started moving toward Walata, his current capital(next to the Northeastern copper), and found that Mansa had made a pact with the RNGods...he quickly hit me with a number of rifles, killing 5 of my grenadiers while only losing 3 rifles. I reached Walata, after another wave of suicide rifles had killed another 5 grenadiers while losing only 3 rifles again. I bombed its gates and then killed all its defenders...except a lone catapult. I then sat there letting my medic 2 Immortal attempt to heal the rest of my stack. Mansa reinforced his city with another batch of Rifles, and I killed them all again, losing a couple cannons and a couple grenadiers...I left the Catapult alone again though. I repeated this twice more before Mansa reinforced with only a single rifle. I was glad too, because I'd lost enough of my grenadiers and cannons, that if he'd been able to last another turn or two I might not have been able to take the city until backup arrived(and backup was 7 or 8 turns away, as it was bombarding his coastal city in an attempt to prevent him from sending any of the 7 rifles there toward the rest of his empire.
I took Walata, and suffered no counter attacks. I then left a single grenadier there, and took his other Northeastern city, which was also defended by only 2 rifles. I proceeded backward, joined my two armies and the various reinforcements I'd received, mainly cannons, and took his last city.
I began rebuilding my infrastructure and preparing to improve the lands he had left me, when I was struck by something...why did I still have so much WW? I looked at the scores, and saw Mansa wasn't dead! He'd founded some city somewhere else in the world! I then managed to peace him for his WM, some gold, and rifling. I found out he had founded a city on a single tile island to the West of Gandhi's mainland empire(Gandhi had entirely settled the only major island)
I then looked at the tech screens, Gandhi had just built the Apollo Program, and knew there wasn't a chance in the world of me either catching up to Gandhi or Hatty, or of my winning a war with them...Gandhi had SAM Infantry and a Tank in Washington, while I had a handful of beatup Grenadiers.
So I decided to maximize my score for my loss....I built a half dozen workers, and began farming everything. I researched Biology next, farmed every single plains, grassland, and floodplain tile I had. I built windmills on every hill that wasn't part of my three main production cities. And I concentrated on making Gandhi and Hatty as friendly as I could, so I would survive till the end of the game.
Around 1840AD, I realized something crazy....I had passed Hatty in population! I was now the second person on the UN ballots! And since Gandhi liked asking for diplo wins, that meant, if I could get Hatty to like me enough...I could actually win! I began buttering her up, and got her up to +8...but couldn't get her to vote for me...she had +7 with Gandhi, and it was impossible for me to get any higher...every civic UN decision had been made, so I couldn't get the civic bonus with her. If I had, I would likely have won, because in 1904AD, Gandhi held a Diplo win vote, and with Hatty's vote, I would have won...instead, he launched his ship the very same turn.
I'm not sure how that would have turned out, two different people winning by different victory conditions on the same turn(since he was Sec-Gen, votes were done during his turn as well), but I would have almost won a diplo victory!
that would have been a true 'backdoor' diplo win, if ever there was one.
Instead, I likely got the latest spaceship loss, as Gandhi launched in 1904AD...pretty late for an Immortal level AI.
Gandhi was blowing me away in technology, I hadn't met Hatty yet, and Roosevelt was dead.
I proceeded to build the much needed infrastructure to attempt to catch up to Gandhi in tech...and apparently, to catch up to Mansa in tech as well, because he surpassed me as well while I was pillaging his lands!
Slowly, my tech pace sped up, and around 1000AD, I met Hatty. She was less advanced than Gandhi, but since neither of them had anyone to trade with, they were teching slower than Immortal level AI usually does...albeit, much faster than me still.
Things passed quietly, for the most part, until 1500AD. A couple bumps were Gandhi managing to flip Washington from me, despite a bomb, several temples, a cathedral, and the Hermitage being built there...along with housing half my mobile army. Around 1500AD, I had managed to learn Chemistry and Steel, and in a calculated move, stopped research to upgrade my entire army. Timbuktu was starving and slowing flipping back to Mansa, and I had finally caught up to him in tech. I used my newly upgraded army of about 25 Grenadiers and 15 Cannons to declare war on Mansa...I knew I'd be in a bit of a mess when I did, because he had a higher power rating than me, and only 3 cities. I knew his cities would be massed full of rifles, but wasn't too worried about rifles in the field, thanks to the +50% of my Grenadiers.
I started moving toward Walata, his current capital(next to the Northeastern copper), and found that Mansa had made a pact with the RNGods...he quickly hit me with a number of rifles, killing 5 of my grenadiers while only losing 3 rifles. I reached Walata, after another wave of suicide rifles had killed another 5 grenadiers while losing only 3 rifles again. I bombed its gates and then killed all its defenders...except a lone catapult. I then sat there letting my medic 2 Immortal attempt to heal the rest of my stack. Mansa reinforced his city with another batch of Rifles, and I killed them all again, losing a couple cannons and a couple grenadiers...I left the Catapult alone again though. I repeated this twice more before Mansa reinforced with only a single rifle. I was glad too, because I'd lost enough of my grenadiers and cannons, that if he'd been able to last another turn or two I might not have been able to take the city until backup arrived(and backup was 7 or 8 turns away, as it was bombarding his coastal city in an attempt to prevent him from sending any of the 7 rifles there toward the rest of his empire.
I took Walata, and suffered no counter attacks. I then left a single grenadier there, and took his other Northeastern city, which was also defended by only 2 rifles. I proceeded backward, joined my two armies and the various reinforcements I'd received, mainly cannons, and took his last city.
I began rebuilding my infrastructure and preparing to improve the lands he had left me, when I was struck by something...why did I still have so much WW? I looked at the scores, and saw Mansa wasn't dead! He'd founded some city somewhere else in the world! I then managed to peace him for his WM, some gold, and rifling. I found out he had founded a city on a single tile island to the West of Gandhi's mainland empire(Gandhi had entirely settled the only major island)
I then looked at the tech screens, Gandhi had just built the Apollo Program, and knew there wasn't a chance in the world of me either catching up to Gandhi or Hatty, or of my winning a war with them...Gandhi had SAM Infantry and a Tank in Washington, while I had a handful of beatup Grenadiers.
So I decided to maximize my score for my loss....I built a half dozen workers, and began farming everything. I researched Biology next, farmed every single plains, grassland, and floodplain tile I had. I built windmills on every hill that wasn't part of my three main production cities. And I concentrated on making Gandhi and Hatty as friendly as I could, so I would survive till the end of the game.
Around 1840AD, I realized something crazy....I had passed Hatty in population! I was now the second person on the UN ballots! And since Gandhi liked asking for diplo wins, that meant, if I could get Hatty to like me enough...I could actually win! I began buttering her up, and got her up to +8...but couldn't get her to vote for me...she had +7 with Gandhi, and it was impossible for me to get any higher...every civic UN decision had been made, so I couldn't get the civic bonus with her. If I had, I would likely have won, because in 1904AD, Gandhi held a Diplo win vote, and with Hatty's vote, I would have won...instead, he launched his ship the very same turn.
I'm not sure how that would have turned out, two different people winning by different victory conditions on the same turn(since he was Sec-Gen, votes were done during his turn as well), but I would have almost won a diplo victory!
that would have been a true 'backdoor' diplo win, if ever there was one.Instead, I likely got the latest spaceship loss, as Gandhi launched in 1904AD...pretty late for an Immortal level AI.
Harbourboy
Deity
Sounds like an almost identical game to mine Thrallia, except my chances of winning went down the toilet around 500 years earlier than you, but we ended up with the same outcome. I can't remember the date now, but my spaceship loss was definitely in the 20th century, maybe even later than yours.
Adama
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2007
- Messages
- 137
@Thrallia:
Ahhh... but "almost" it sounds like... what a great game. And if you had gotten just a tiny bit chummier with Hattie, you would have pulled the proverbial rabbit out of the hat! Good job nevertheless.
And we'll see Harbourboy with a decent base score, having survived to the end. Gooood job there too!
I'll post my spoiler in a short while, but it was Adventurer Class, so not as great an achievement. But Thrallia and so many others have certainly taught me a lot and been extrememly helpful in answering my 'noob' questions.
Best to all,
Adama
Ahhh... but "almost" it sounds like... what a great game. And if you had gotten just a tiny bit chummier with Hattie, you would have pulled the proverbial rabbit out of the hat! Good job nevertheless.
And we'll see Harbourboy with a decent base score, having survived to the end. Gooood job there too!
I'll post my spoiler in a short while, but it was Adventurer Class, so not as great an achievement. But Thrallia and so many others have certainly taught me a lot and been extrememly helpful in answering my 'noob' questions.
Best to all,
Adama
Adama
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2007
- Messages
- 137
This is my first ever Emperor game, and my fourth attempt at a GOTM, being my second attempt eligible for submission.
At 500 AD in the first spoiler, I was undecided as to how to proceed. I ended up attacking MM. I was continually behind in techs to at least one other civ, most times to all.
In 580 AD I realized that by revolting to Hereditary Rule, I could keep Hattie on the pleased side, and continue to trade (she was behind M&M tech wise, and at least I had a chance with her). Did I just say that I had a chance with Hattie? Oh well
I revolted to Bureaucracy in 700 AD. I built the Heroic Epic and Natl Epic, both in my capital, and I dont think I built any other wonders, being on a single-minded warpath mindset.
I had built an academy with my first great scientist, and I actually settled my second GS for 1H & 6bkrs per turn.
By 1080 AD, I had carefully prepared for war (E.g., I waited for Engineeringwhich is so much more beneficial I found in my first WOTM this month because of Trebs, but still the movement factor alone is worth it). I DOWed M&M in 1090 AD and began razing some cities and capturing others, moving up the peninsula. I received a tech or two in exchange for peace with M&M circa 1250 AD.
Here, I have a question. I had nurtured good relations with Hattie, but now I have to ask the question: When it becomes obvious that it will be just Hattie and Cyrus (assuming that I will eliminate M&Ms last city someday), does it make sense to trade at a discount to Hattie? She is out-teching me, and I am trading her to an even greater advantage? What is your opinions about this- I am just curious. I did make one or two trades with her, because I weighed the consequences and figured I was going to need the tech at any cost, and that I would recover on the battlefield.
Sure enough, I destroyed M&M in 1380 AD, and destroyed the last Indian city belonging to Gandhi in 1440 AD. I took my first Egyptian city in 1470 AD and barely secured the Domination Victory condition in 1530 AD. I say barely, because I was executing my battle plans with War Elephants, heavily promoted Maces, and a lot of Cats. My newly acquired Musketeers were just making it to the front lines, and I just completed researching Chemistry (for Grenadiers), and all of a sudden Riflemen appear in Hatties city that I have under attack. I sue for peace, get a small out-of-date tech and some small $change$. I am very lucky that border expansions for the Egyptian cities I have kept and not razed put me over the Domination Victory limit.
Shamelessly, I had considered going for a Conquest (never done that before in any game- most all of my complete games have been the four GOTMs and this/last months WOTM) but am probably very, very lucky I didnt try that. Riflemen and Hattie had a one-square island that would have been hard to attack from the ocean (perhaps she would have had others settled by the time I got there).
As a noob I am feeling comfortable in Civ IV and I was very fortunate indeed to win on this level, even with my AC (adventurer class). My base score was 3617, and my AC score was 97,638 ( I think thats 82,992 adjusted for Adventurer Class), my fastest finish (I guess because this was a small map?) in 1530 AD, and my highest score so far in any game.
I think I am ready to leave Adventure Class behind (unless the next level is Deity). Many thanks to all of you who have been the main source of my learning Civ IV right here on this forum (and other threads). I think I am noob first class now as a result of your careful tutelage.
Best to all,
Adama
At 500 AD in the first spoiler, I was undecided as to how to proceed. I ended up attacking MM. I was continually behind in techs to at least one other civ, most times to all.
In 580 AD I realized that by revolting to Hereditary Rule, I could keep Hattie on the pleased side, and continue to trade (she was behind M&M tech wise, and at least I had a chance with her). Did I just say that I had a chance with Hattie? Oh well
I revolted to Bureaucracy in 700 AD. I built the Heroic Epic and Natl Epic, both in my capital, and I dont think I built any other wonders, being on a single-minded warpath mindset.
I had built an academy with my first great scientist, and I actually settled my second GS for 1H & 6bkrs per turn.
By 1080 AD, I had carefully prepared for war (E.g., I waited for Engineeringwhich is so much more beneficial I found in my first WOTM this month because of Trebs, but still the movement factor alone is worth it). I DOWed M&M in 1090 AD and began razing some cities and capturing others, moving up the peninsula. I received a tech or two in exchange for peace with M&M circa 1250 AD.
Here, I have a question. I had nurtured good relations with Hattie, but now I have to ask the question: When it becomes obvious that it will be just Hattie and Cyrus (assuming that I will eliminate M&Ms last city someday), does it make sense to trade at a discount to Hattie? She is out-teching me, and I am trading her to an even greater advantage? What is your opinions about this- I am just curious. I did make one or two trades with her, because I weighed the consequences and figured I was going to need the tech at any cost, and that I would recover on the battlefield.
Sure enough, I destroyed M&M in 1380 AD, and destroyed the last Indian city belonging to Gandhi in 1440 AD. I took my first Egyptian city in 1470 AD and barely secured the Domination Victory condition in 1530 AD. I say barely, because I was executing my battle plans with War Elephants, heavily promoted Maces, and a lot of Cats. My newly acquired Musketeers were just making it to the front lines, and I just completed researching Chemistry (for Grenadiers), and all of a sudden Riflemen appear in Hatties city that I have under attack. I sue for peace, get a small out-of-date tech and some small $change$. I am very lucky that border expansions for the Egyptian cities I have kept and not razed put me over the Domination Victory limit.
Shamelessly, I had considered going for a Conquest (never done that before in any game- most all of my complete games have been the four GOTMs and this/last months WOTM) but am probably very, very lucky I didnt try that. Riflemen and Hattie had a one-square island that would have been hard to attack from the ocean (perhaps she would have had others settled by the time I got there).
As a noob I am feeling comfortable in Civ IV and I was very fortunate indeed to win on this level, even with my AC (adventurer class). My base score was 3617, and my AC score was 97,638 ( I think thats 82,992 adjusted for Adventurer Class), my fastest finish (I guess because this was a small map?) in 1530 AD, and my highest score so far in any game.
I think I am ready to leave Adventure Class behind (unless the next level is Deity). Many thanks to all of you who have been the main source of my learning Civ IV right here on this forum (and other threads). I think I am noob first class now as a result of your careful tutelage.
Best to all,
Adama
congrats Adama! 
After a win on Immortal, regardless of whether it was adventurer or not, I don't think you can call yourself a noob at all anymore 
As far as trading with a single AI that can outtech you anyway...I'm no expert, but I'd say it depends on how important the tech you'd get is to you, and how worthwhile the tech you're giving her is.
If what you're getting will allow you to increase your research speed/military ability, then I'd say it is worth it most of the time.
After a win on Immortal, regardless of whether it was adventurer or not, I don't think you can call yourself a noob at all anymore As far as trading with a single AI that can outtech you anyway...I'm no expert, but I'd say it depends on how important the tech you'd get is to you, and how worthwhile the tech you're giving her is.
If what you're getting will allow you to increase your research speed/military ability, then I'd say it is worth it most of the time.
Kennigit
proud 2 boxer
My game went really well until I made a huge, huge mistake. basically, I conquered Roosevelt early and waged war vs Mansa. I got Timbuktu around 250, so not as fast as some but still was managable. I had cottages runing in my capital, and the Timbuktu conquest got me pyramids. Switched to Hereditary rule, let my cities grow, and got to gunpowder first.
I was an idiot from then on. I went to finish off Mansa- a huge mistake as I should have gone for Ghandi. After I finished mansa and made peace (he had 1 little island city off of hatty's coast), I had chemistry by then and considered going for Ghandi until he upgraded to Rifles. I went to go get hatty with a bunch of musketman while getting grenadiers and teching steel. I ran into the mountain and had to get some galleys to ferry my units over that small gap. I got a decent sized army and started the war. I got 2 of hatty's cities early on in the first turns of the war. I went on to Memphis but missed it by about 2 units- I left too many guys guarding old cities and Hatty had upgraded her knights to calvary just acouple turns before I did my big attack.
I did get 3 cities of Hatty's, but there was no way I was going to win. Ghandi was too far ahead in tech, and my own tech was pretty weak. Ghandi lauched in 1912- I might have delayed it acouple turns with a spy but I can't remember.
A bit of a coulda-shoulda-woulda for me. I think I probably would of gotten Ghandi had I gone for him.
Was my first GOTM and I enjoyed it a lot, even if I don't seem that way here.
@Adama & others: Great job with this game.
I was an idiot from then on. I went to finish off Mansa- a huge mistake as I should have gone for Ghandi. After I finished mansa and made peace (he had 1 little island city off of hatty's coast), I had chemistry by then and considered going for Ghandi until he upgraded to Rifles. I went to go get hatty with a bunch of musketman while getting grenadiers and teching steel. I ran into the mountain and had to get some galleys to ferry my units over that small gap. I got a decent sized army and started the war. I got 2 of hatty's cities early on in the first turns of the war. I went on to Memphis but missed it by about 2 units- I left too many guys guarding old cities and Hatty had upgraded her knights to calvary just acouple turns before I did my big attack.
I did get 3 cities of Hatty's, but there was no way I was going to win. Ghandi was too far ahead in tech, and my own tech was pretty weak. Ghandi lauched in 1912- I might have delayed it acouple turns with a spy but I can't remember.
A bit of a coulda-shoulda-woulda for me. I think I probably would of gotten Ghandi had I gone for him.
Was my first GOTM and I enjoyed it a lot, even if I don't seem that way here.
@Adama & others: Great job with this game.
SpockFederation,
Don't beat yourself up over it. My experience, in what was also my first GOTM, was eactly opposite. I didn't finish off Mansa Musa and went for Ghandi instead. By the time I got rid of him and what was left of Roosevelt, Mansa Musa was having riflemen and destroyers. I kind of gave up there. I think I can take him but a war with him will no doubt leave Egypt (the most advanced civ with the highest score) long enough to launch a space-ship well ahead of me.
I think a different tactic was required than the obviouse altogether. Like planting a strong beach-head just across the separation and let Egypt run all his troops into an unbreachable fortress.
Don't beat yourself up over it. My experience, in what was also my first GOTM, was eactly opposite. I didn't finish off Mansa Musa and went for Ghandi instead. By the time I got rid of him and what was left of Roosevelt, Mansa Musa was having riflemen and destroyers. I kind of gave up there. I think I can take him but a war with him will no doubt leave Egypt (the most advanced civ with the highest score) long enough to launch a space-ship well ahead of me.
I think a different tactic was required than the obviouse altogether. Like planting a strong beach-head just across the separation and let Egypt run all his troops into an unbreachable fortress.
Mighty Dwaarf
Ginger Beast
(There would be more but apparently ther is a limit per post, booo!!)Diplo win 1760AD 43k
First ever victory above Monarch.
BC
Lots of early wars with Washington and MM left me with 6 cities across the southern bit of our land captured Walata of MM and New York on far east coast of Wash. Wash was down to just Washington and MM had no cities south of his capital.
AD
With sci rate down to 50% I figured that any more wars or cities would bog me down too much so embarked on major resurection of my economy. MM and wash were a little pissed off with me declaring on them 2-3 times but I still had managed to keep just on the right side of Gandhi. Gandhi had turned to Judaism and soon harranged me into to it also. Soon MM and Wash were also brought into the Jewish club and here started a beautiful friendship
As my peaceful relationships began to blossom I was soon able to trade techs within the club this greatly helped progress my technology and was soon on par with One City Washington and MM but Gandhi was still speeding through the tech tree.
Had just got to the Industrial Age when I looked at the state of play. Gandhi was friendly with me and so now was Mansa and soon Wash would be too. Hatty still held the most pop 31% so if I could build the UN then I would probably win as it stood.
I was first to Radio and had just popped a GE
Mass Media in Five but then Gandhi revolted to Free Religion, he was neck and neck in attitude towards me and Hatty!! UN built 1725, it all hung on Gandhis vote 
a few brown envelopes later and he checked the Cyrus box and I was in as Gen Sec, just a matter of not doing anything silly till the next vote, and hoping MM and Wash don't go to free religion. All went as planned and 1760 won the diplo victory vote!!Although am well chuffed with the victory I reckon could have achieved pre 1700 victory if had beelined more for it instead of going for techs that I thought could trade around.
jesusin, contender, goal fastest diplo. Result: 1720AD diplo victory.
In the first spoiler I had conquered Roo and 90% of Gandhi and I stayed some 60 turns at 0% research working sea tiles until I got Calendar.
The economy and population started to improve quickly as I connected the plantation resources. Engineers were assigned in several cities in preparation for the UN.
Lessons in diplomacy:
1- If someone asks you to take their religion, do as you please. I declared Hatty religion only to see how she changed it the next turn. I waited forever for another request. I have learned that the "+1 you changed religions" fades away quite quickly.
2- the "+1 you paid a tribute" also fades away.
3- the "-1 you dowed Gandhi for the third time for 2 fricking stupid cities you didn't really need" never washes away. Ever.
4- did killing Gandhi raise the votes needed to win from 60% to 62%? anyone knows, please?
The trading race:
I was so hopelessly behind in techs that I started accumulating money for a few turns, then carefuly considering the trading situation and beelining to something I could trade. This way, I got a whole 30g from trading Machinery, abandoned the research of compass halfway when they both got it, got CoL+Curr+Mono from Engi, got paper too late... So little by little I retook most of their advantage, but was never able to direct my research as I would have liked.
GP popping: Lite (and its HE) came too late. I also nerfed my GPFarm to allow other cities that had been hiring an engineer to pop it. I never got a GE. The combined probability of all pops was to have got 2 GE, but luck wasn't on my side. 7GP only, GS-Acad, GS-Educ, GS-SciMe, GM+GS-GoldenAge, GS+GA unused.
I lost the Liberalism raze because it was hopeless, I lost the GS from physics because I am stupid, I got first to MM (in 1490AD). Even triggering a GA, it took me 22 turns to build the UN. By then I was at war with Musa, so Hatty was elected, so 16 turns more had to pass for me to be elected and 5 turns later I had won.
Let's recapitulate:
-No GS from Physics: 3-4turns
-No GE: 20-22turns
-Nobody friendly: 16turns
-No beeline to Calendar in first spoiler: 60turns+30/50turns of lost trading opportunities.
So all in all I could have won in 1720-152t=300BC
The final problem was this: me 45% pop, Hat 27%, Musa 27%. Both had -2killing Gandhi, -1borders, +1peace, +2borders, +2resources, +4trading, +3civic==+9. No way to get them to friendly. If one of them had been friendly, I would have signed a DP further increasing our friendship, then by gifting resources or by gifing a city I would have chosen my opponent and won the game easily. I had pop to spare, so if I had kept Gandhi around I would have won easily. That would have been a nice diplo game. But I had no way out, but to kill someone and vote myself. I took all of Musa's cities in my continent in an ugly war, I had cannons and cavalry against his cannons, riflemen and infantry. Ugly end to a very fun game.
Thanks to the staff for this fantastic setup. Peaceful leaders, great reseachers, but all stuffed up in a small land, nice indeed! Land scarcity and no resource trading made this game feel like a deity one in the beggining. I am confident now I can win an Immortal game and even force my desired VC. Well, at least if I play the best I can, I have tried this map a second time after submitting to try and dow all AIs at the same time to harass 2 of them while killing the other and I have been crashed. Looking forward to that Egypt-Deity game next month.
In the first spoiler I had conquered Roo and 90% of Gandhi and I stayed some 60 turns at 0% research working sea tiles until I got Calendar.
The economy and population started to improve quickly as I connected the plantation resources. Engineers were assigned in several cities in preparation for the UN.
Lessons in diplomacy:
1- If someone asks you to take their religion, do as you please. I declared Hatty religion only to see how she changed it the next turn. I waited forever for another request. I have learned that the "+1 you changed religions" fades away quite quickly.
2- the "+1 you paid a tribute" also fades away.
3- the "-1 you dowed Gandhi for the third time for 2 fricking stupid cities you didn't really need" never washes away. Ever.
4- did killing Gandhi raise the votes needed to win from 60% to 62%? anyone knows, please?
The trading race:
I was so hopelessly behind in techs that I started accumulating money for a few turns, then carefuly considering the trading situation and beelining to something I could trade. This way, I got a whole 30g from trading Machinery, abandoned the research of compass halfway when they both got it, got CoL+Curr+Mono from Engi, got paper too late... So little by little I retook most of their advantage, but was never able to direct my research as I would have liked.
GP popping: Lite (and its HE) came too late. I also nerfed my GPFarm to allow other cities that had been hiring an engineer to pop it. I never got a GE. The combined probability of all pops was to have got 2 GE, but luck wasn't on my side. 7GP only, GS-Acad, GS-Educ, GS-SciMe, GM+GS-GoldenAge, GS+GA unused.
I lost the Liberalism raze because it was hopeless, I lost the GS from physics because I am stupid, I got first to MM (in 1490AD). Even triggering a GA, it took me 22 turns to build the UN. By then I was at war with Musa, so Hatty was elected, so 16 turns more had to pass for me to be elected and 5 turns later I had won.
Let's recapitulate:
-No GS from Physics: 3-4turns
-No GE: 20-22turns
-Nobody friendly: 16turns
-No beeline to Calendar in first spoiler: 60turns+30/50turns of lost trading opportunities.
So all in all I could have won in 1720-152t=300BC
The final problem was this: me 45% pop, Hat 27%, Musa 27%. Both had -2killing Gandhi, -1borders, +1peace, +2borders, +2resources, +4trading, +3civic==+9. No way to get them to friendly. If one of them had been friendly, I would have signed a DP further increasing our friendship, then by gifting resources or by gifing a city I would have chosen my opponent and won the game easily. I had pop to spare, so if I had kept Gandhi around I would have won easily. That would have been a nice diplo game. But I had no way out, but to kill someone and vote myself. I took all of Musa's cities in my continent in an ugly war, I had cannons and cavalry against his cannons, riflemen and infantry. Ugly end to a very fun game.
Thanks to the staff for this fantastic setup. Peaceful leaders, great reseachers, but all stuffed up in a small land, nice indeed! Land scarcity and no resource trading made this game feel like a deity one in the beggining. I am confident now I can win an Immortal game and even force my desired VC. Well, at least if I play the best I can, I have tried this map a second time after submitting to try and dow all AIs at the same time to harass 2 of them while killing the other and I have been crashed. Looking forward to that Egypt-Deity game next month.
Mad Professor
Deity
Contender. Spaceship loss to Gandhi 1914. Base score 2616, end score 4708.
My first spoiler indicated I had basically no chance of winning at 500AD. My slim hope was to get fast to guilds and upgrade immortals to knights and combine them with recently built cats and try to hamstring Mansa and Gandhi enough to slow them long enough to wage war long enough to... Yeah - it was a real thin hope. In the end it proved impossible - the other guys were just too far ahead after my ruined economy nearly came to a standstill after I kicked Roosevelt off the planet.
During all this I concentrated on building my economy up - and I was quite pleased with my efforts - I actually had a fairly powerful ecnonomy by about 1300AD. Power-wise though I was never going to be in the hunt. All hope of any sort of victory faded.
Having patted myself on the back for building a nice looking economy, I figured the most entertaining way to wait to see who won was to turn of tech, and turn up the culture to 90% and see if I snatch a city or two off Mansa by culture. It didn't succeed, though I got a lot of territory and a couple of cities were nearly islands in my area.
Gandhi was amazing. This was the most comprehensive victory by an AI that I have ever seen. He founded every single religion except Confucianism, he very near won by culture - if he'd held off just a few more turns and neither Mansa or Hatty had launched I would have seen my first AI culture victory. I've never seen anything like it before. He also built so many wonders it was ridiculous. Talk about economy and hammers to burn... Part of it was the start. Roosevelt expeanded striaght towards me and so did Mansa. That cramped me and made it harder, but it also left Gandhi with a lot of wide open spaces. He made good use of them. Oh - and he built the UN (along with nearly everything else) and asked for a diplo victory vote. It failed. Though I was tempted to vote for him to finish it it off there. If I had it would have, but I decided against it and he had to finish his spaceship instead...
My first spoiler indicated I had basically no chance of winning at 500AD. My slim hope was to get fast to guilds and upgrade immortals to knights and combine them with recently built cats and try to hamstring Mansa and Gandhi enough to slow them long enough to wage war long enough to... Yeah - it was a real thin hope. In the end it proved impossible - the other guys were just too far ahead after my ruined economy nearly came to a standstill after I kicked Roosevelt off the planet.
During all this I concentrated on building my economy up - and I was quite pleased with my efforts - I actually had a fairly powerful ecnonomy by about 1300AD. Power-wise though I was never going to be in the hunt. All hope of any sort of victory faded.
Having patted myself on the back for building a nice looking economy, I figured the most entertaining way to wait to see who won was to turn of tech, and turn up the culture to 90% and see if I snatch a city or two off Mansa by culture. It didn't succeed, though I got a lot of territory
and a couple of cities were nearly islands in my area.Gandhi was amazing. This was the most comprehensive victory by an AI that I have ever seen. He founded every single religion except Confucianism, he very near won by culture - if he'd held off just a few more turns and neither Mansa or Hatty had launched I would have seen my first AI culture victory. I've never seen anything like it before. He also built so many wonders it was ridiculous. Talk about economy and hammers to burn... Part of it was the start. Roosevelt expeanded striaght towards me and so did Mansa. That cramped me and made it harder, but it also left Gandhi with a lot of wide open spaces. He made good use of them. Oh - and he built the UN (along with nearly everything else) and asked for a diplo victory vote. It failed. Though I was tempted to vote for him to finish it it off there. If I had it would have, but I decided against it and he had to finish his spaceship instead...
warren peace
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2003
- Messages
- 20
Basically I had the same experience as most others. I built two cities, hooked up horses and went to war against Wash. Went to total war mode and wiped Wash out and then went after MM. However, he already had longbowman, so I couldn't take any of his cities and after some pillaging got peace. After that I just played tech catchup and tried for the UN, but wasn't even close when Ghandi launched in 1908 (he built the UN a few turns earlier. Final score adjusted was 5100.
Tried playing this game several additional times, but always the same result. I will be interested in looking at the replays of the winners.
Warren
Tried playing this game several additional times, but always the same result. I will be interested in looking at the replays of the winners.
Warren
Contender Level - Domination Victory at 1595AD.
Some interesting points - I only built one settler in the whole game! I never traded any techs or resources at all! I only built one wonder. Nearly continuous war from 950 BC on. The challenge thoughout was to keep expansion and research balanced. Early on went for buildup of Immortals and luckily the barbs had built just where I wanted my 3rd city. I waited till it had a pop of 2 then took it, earned some nice experience for my units. Was just about to declare war on Roosevelt when he declared on me! I took one american city then luckily Mansa jumped in and declared war on Roosevelt. When Mansa had a lot of his forces taking on Roosevelt I quickly changed his "pleased" with me by attacking him. Took one city then with all my troops on the edge of Timbuktu I made peace with him, even got a couple of techs in the deal. Then it was on to India. I needed to keep the war with Roosevelt on although I never pursued it because I needed to cross American land to get to India. After checking which Indian cities had all the goodies I took the capital Bombay which had Stonehenge and the GL. Once I had enough troops across America I made peace with Roosevelt. Gandhi still only had archers for defense and I had war elephants and very experienced Immortals. I took and destroyed a bunch of Indian cities cuz I wanted the money and I didn't want the drain on tech. Then peace with Gandi and back to war with Mansa. Took and kept a couple of cities then made peace leaving Mansa only 1 city left. Finished off Roosevelt. Then took on Hattie. The interesting thing is that I was ahead of Hattie in some military techs at the time of war outbreak but she caught up quickly. I managed to take a couple of Egyptian cities and hold on to them long enough for the domination win. Score: 96466 - leadership of Augustus Caesar.
Some interesting points - I only built one settler in the whole game! I never traded any techs or resources at all! I only built one wonder. Nearly continuous war from 950 BC on. The challenge thoughout was to keep expansion and research balanced. Early on went for buildup of Immortals and luckily the barbs had built just where I wanted my 3rd city. I waited till it had a pop of 2 then took it, earned some nice experience for my units. Was just about to declare war on Roosevelt when he declared on me! I took one american city then luckily Mansa jumped in and declared war on Roosevelt. When Mansa had a lot of his forces taking on Roosevelt I quickly changed his "pleased" with me by attacking him. Took one city then with all my troops on the edge of Timbuktu I made peace with him, even got a couple of techs in the deal. Then it was on to India. I needed to keep the war with Roosevelt on although I never pursued it because I needed to cross American land to get to India. After checking which Indian cities had all the goodies I took the capital Bombay which had Stonehenge and the GL. Once I had enough troops across America I made peace with Roosevelt. Gandhi still only had archers for defense and I had war elephants and very experienced Immortals. I took and destroyed a bunch of Indian cities cuz I wanted the money and I didn't want the drain on tech. Then peace with Gandi and back to war with Mansa. Took and kept a couple of cities then made peace leaving Mansa only 1 city left. Finished off Roosevelt. Then took on Hattie. The interesting thing is that I was ahead of Hattie in some military techs at the time of war outbreak but she caught up quickly. I managed to take a couple of Egyptian cities and hold on to them long enough for the domination win. Score: 96466 - leadership of Augustus Caesar.
wwassme
Warlord
Dateline Persia, July, 1960: The GOTM 20 wrap party was held today. Attending were Cyrus of Persia and Hatty of Egypt. Gandhi of India was invited, but declined to attend declaring: You left me with one measly city on a one tile island in the northern reaches. I aint attending your $%** party. Roosevelt of America and Mansa Musa of Mali were unable to attend due to their timely deaths.
Several awards were handed out.
Narrowest Margin of Victory went to Cyrus of Persia. Cyrus won a diplomatic victory, voting himself the winner with 300 votes of 298 needed. Why the extra two, Cyrus? After taking the entire starting area, Cyrus realized that Hatty was way too technologically advanced to attack (grenadiers against infantry and galleys against battleships anyone?) and decided to focus on a massive population increase, extensive economic improvements and a rapid scientific research effort in the hope of either taking just enough land and people for a domination victory or vote himself winner. Thanks for building the U.N. Hatty!!!!
Thanks for Not Killing Us was won by Hatty of Egypt as a consolation prize. Although Hatty could easily have walked all over Cyrus, she stayed put on her home territory building up her military, constructing wonders and leisurely researching technologies and building parts for a spaceship. When informed of Cyrus victory, Hatty muttered: I should have whomped his grenadiers over the head with my tanks and gunships long ago. I was only a few turns away from completing my spaceship and leaving this hellhole forever.
Supreme Sacrifice went to those brave catapults, grenadiers and macemen (sorry guys, not enough cash to upgrade you) who lost their lives taking Gandhis last two cities on the main continent. We know you had low odds against artillery, infantry and SAM infantry, but your sacrifice enabled our victory. A moment of silence was held in their honor.
Most Unselfish, Yet Stupid went to Gandhi of India. Right before Cyrus was ready to invade, Gandhi gifted him Calendar. That allowed Cyrus to build plantations and hook up those lovely happiness and health resources. Most of Persias cities were at their happiness limit and could now grow, or at least create more fodder for the slave whip.
Ungrateful Wretches went to 5-7 citizens per city of Persia. After Cyrus switched to Representation (enabled by capturing Delhi and the Pyramids) and Caste System, many citizens were directed to become scientists and invent things in their garages. Previously, many of them were whipped to death constructing units and buildings. However, those ungrateful wretches still demanded Emancipation for several centuries before we had time to research Democracy and give it to them.
Loneliest People were won by a settler and longbow from India. At the end of the game, they were still standing on the one-tile island just south of the mountain separating Hatty from the rest of the world. They had been there for centuries, apparently unable to build a new city within two tiles of one of Hattys.
Most Annoying Neighbor went to Mansa Musa of Mali. While Cyrus was taking out Roosevelt and keeping his two best cities, Mansa built two cities between Cyrus starting position and the former American cities. As punishment, he became the second target of the Persian war machine.
Roll Over and Die was won by Roosevelt of America. Thanks for making almost all archers so that Persias Immortals could easily kill you off. Also thanks for sending archers out of Washington one by one so that the covering Immortals could pick them off until reinforcements could arrive to take the city.
My First Immortal Victory was won by the man pulling the strings behind the curtain, wwassme. Base score 6,559, final score 31,104.
Several awards were handed out.
Narrowest Margin of Victory went to Cyrus of Persia. Cyrus won a diplomatic victory, voting himself the winner with 300 votes of 298 needed. Why the extra two, Cyrus? After taking the entire starting area, Cyrus realized that Hatty was way too technologically advanced to attack (grenadiers against infantry and galleys against battleships anyone?) and decided to focus on a massive population increase, extensive economic improvements and a rapid scientific research effort in the hope of either taking just enough land and people for a domination victory or vote himself winner. Thanks for building the U.N. Hatty!!!!
Thanks for Not Killing Us was won by Hatty of Egypt as a consolation prize. Although Hatty could easily have walked all over Cyrus, she stayed put on her home territory building up her military, constructing wonders and leisurely researching technologies and building parts for a spaceship. When informed of Cyrus victory, Hatty muttered: I should have whomped his grenadiers over the head with my tanks and gunships long ago. I was only a few turns away from completing my spaceship and leaving this hellhole forever.
Supreme Sacrifice went to those brave catapults, grenadiers and macemen (sorry guys, not enough cash to upgrade you) who lost their lives taking Gandhis last two cities on the main continent. We know you had low odds against artillery, infantry and SAM infantry, but your sacrifice enabled our victory. A moment of silence was held in their honor.
Most Unselfish, Yet Stupid went to Gandhi of India. Right before Cyrus was ready to invade, Gandhi gifted him Calendar. That allowed Cyrus to build plantations and hook up those lovely happiness and health resources. Most of Persias cities were at their happiness limit and could now grow, or at least create more fodder for the slave whip.
Ungrateful Wretches went to 5-7 citizens per city of Persia. After Cyrus switched to Representation (enabled by capturing Delhi and the Pyramids) and Caste System, many citizens were directed to become scientists and invent things in their garages. Previously, many of them were whipped to death constructing units and buildings. However, those ungrateful wretches still demanded Emancipation for several centuries before we had time to research Democracy and give it to them.
Loneliest People were won by a settler and longbow from India. At the end of the game, they were still standing on the one-tile island just south of the mountain separating Hatty from the rest of the world. They had been there for centuries, apparently unable to build a new city within two tiles of one of Hattys.
Most Annoying Neighbor went to Mansa Musa of Mali. While Cyrus was taking out Roosevelt and keeping his two best cities, Mansa built two cities between Cyrus starting position and the former American cities. As punishment, he became the second target of the Persian war machine.
Roll Over and Die was won by Roosevelt of America. Thanks for making almost all archers so that Persias Immortals could easily kill you off. Also thanks for sending archers out of Washington one by one so that the covering Immortals could pick them off until reinforcements could arrive to take the city.
My First Immortal Victory was won by the man pulling the strings behind the curtain, wwassme. Base score 6,559, final score 31,104.
1970 AD Spaceship Loss to Egypt
Base score: 5823
Final score: 10480
No first spoiler due to RL, quick summary:
IM rush
Dow washington (take NY, burn Boston, pillage everything)
Dowed by Munsa (Lost NY but took 1 cities and burned 2, killed him after a short peace)
Kill of Washington
Large stack advancing on a dowed Gandi
500 AD
Not a good start and continued worse, Gandi kills of my veteran stack thanks to suiciding cats. Took me ages to kill him, he even CB a city N of Washington to slow me down. Finally Gandi is down to 2 useless cities and I look at Hatty, she is way way ahead of me in tech and troops. No way I can take her, but I notice that I have monopoly on alu so I hoped that this would slow her enough for me to win on time (especially as I could slow her down more with mordern armor once I get them and she could not without alu). Manage to blow up some space parts but my war was both ineffective and to late so she launched in 1970.
Oh yes, I did kill Gandi of when Hatty started to call annoying UN resolutions thanks to his 8 votes.
Base score: 5823
Final score: 10480
No first spoiler due to RL, quick summary:
IM rush
Dow washington (take NY, burn Boston, pillage everything)
Dowed by Munsa (Lost NY but took 1 cities and burned 2, killed him after a short peace)
Kill of Washington
Large stack advancing on a dowed Gandi
500 AD
Not a good start and continued worse, Gandi kills of my veteran stack thanks to suiciding cats. Took me ages to kill him, he even CB a city N of Washington to slow me down. Finally Gandi is down to 2 useless cities and I look at Hatty, she is way way ahead of me in tech and troops. No way I can take her, but I notice that I have monopoly on alu so I hoped that this would slow her enough for me to win on time (especially as I could slow her down more with mordern armor once I get them and she could not without alu). Manage to blow up some space parts but my war was both ineffective and to late so she launched in 1970.
Oh yes, I did kill Gandi of when Hatty started to call annoying UN resolutions thanks to his 8 votes.
Grenadiers only get a bonus when attacking Riflemen, not defending, so you should expect to lose more Grens than he does Rifles when you're on defense.
Adama
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2007
- Messages
- 137
I also lost an inordinate number of 70+% attacks on his rifles too...but they were probably making up for my low odds Immortal wins earlier in the game
My limited experience leads me to a conclusion that I have not seen discussed or documented elsewhere, and I certainly doubt its authenticity; instead I throw it out 'anecdotally'.
1. The RNG does "even" out lucky streaks in its own way (I am postulating that it is not totally random, as in the heresy of the day ...)
2. Perhaps more importantly, I think you get much 'truer' odds if you have a large SoD. Limited noob experience, but if I have a large StackOfDoom against only a couple of defenders, then I trust the 'odds' if they say I will win 70% of the battles. However, just let me come to the party with only three units in my stack, and I will NOT win two of the battles (i.e., not win 70%).
Personally, I think it might have something to do with the number of friendly units in what might have been referred to as a "zone of control" in other war games. I.e., if I have twenty units in stacks near a city, the RNG knows I will win, eventually, and results are near "true" odds. But, if a "lucky" 70% win would severely affect the outcome of the scenario, or capture a city, the RNG sits back and makes value judgements and 'equalizes' things.... teaches me a lesson about bringing enough troops to do the job adequately.
Like I said, no basis in fact for this analysis; just conjecture and superstition. However, it is serving me well so I'll continue in my ignorance ...
Best to all,
Adama
All of this post in off topic, slow day at work
Adama:
I am afraid I have to disappoint you; there is no evil RNG intelligence involved. There is no way to true random from a computer so the technique usually used is to generate a string of numbers generated from something changing on the computer (bad example the .0000x value of the processor temperature at different times). The numbers in this string is generated before the game starts and does not change according to game situation.
Also luck does not have to even out even though the winning chances are random. You can be lucky and lose 5% suiciding cats chances with a random number that would have lost a 95% chance as well hence getting rid of a sure lose in any fight in a fight you expected to lose anyway.
Adama:
I am afraid I have to disappoint you; there is no evil RNG intelligence involved. There is no way to true random from a computer so the technique usually used is to generate a string of numbers generated from something changing on the computer (bad example the .0000x value of the processor temperature at different times). The numbers in this string is generated before the game starts and does not change according to game situation.
Also luck does not have to even out even though the winning chances are random. You can be lucky and lose 5% suiciding cats chances with a random number that would have lost a 95% chance as well hence getting rid of a sure lose in any fight in a fight you expected to lose anyway.
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