GOTM 25 - First Spoiler
- Thread starter ainwood
- Start date
RobertTheBruce
King
Jastrow, thanks
Geez, I figured with such a late date, it wouldn't be an issue - in any case, post edited!
Congratulations! I look forward to hearing about the rest of your game in the next spoiler. The date may not matter this time but its a good habit to develop. Who knows you may even be in the hunt for a fastest finish if everyone went for a different victory condition. Besides, we like to be teased with a few hints of the endgame.
Harbourboy
Deity
OK, I have restarted this for the 7th and finally managed to get somewhere. Basically, it has required doing the following:
- settling within range of the rice and gold.
- beelining directly for Roosevelt's rice to get the worker straightaway. I don't see how this would be possible without foreknowledge as it is in the opposite direction from where you would first be moving that initial warrior.
- getting hold of the American and Aztec capitals as primary objectives.
Missing out on that gold in the capital is almost game-breaking if my 7 tests are anything to go by. I still think that the worker steal is not that easy to pull off in this game as I have only been able to do it 1 out of 7 times, even with detailed knowledge of the map.
- settling within range of the rice and gold.
- beelining directly for Roosevelt's rice to get the worker straightaway. I don't see how this would be possible without foreknowledge as it is in the opposite direction from where you would first be moving that initial warrior.
- getting hold of the American and Aztec capitals as primary objectives.
Missing out on that gold in the capital is almost game-breaking if my 7 tests are anything to go by. I still think that the worker steal is not that easy to pull off in this game as I have only been able to do it 1 out of 7 times, even with detailed knowledge of the map.
Again, patience is the key... In the game, I (and I suspect many) did not get to the rice in time to snag the worker there, but there were other resources floating around. I grabbed my worker on the resource 3 tiles south of Washington, in 2840. I forget what the resource on that square was.
Jimmy Thunder
King
The worker steal is a great thing, but don't get too obsessed with it.
In my game I didn't worker steal and my first two builds were both workers. Letting the AI expand normally was not an issue since all the cities and improvements they made were soon to be mine once my horse archers came online.
I like how there are so many ways to play the game...
In my game I didn't worker steal and my first two builds were both workers. Letting the AI expand normally was not an issue since all the cities and improvements they made were soon to be mine once my horse archers came online.
I like how there are so many ways to play the game...
Stole Monty's worker early on. With a combination of bowmen, chariots and finally horse archers managed to eliminate Aztecs in 1000BC.
Went directly on to the Americans - took Washington 575 BC - no America by 300AD.
Then immediately on to Spain before she had Longbows - took Seville 350AD.
At 500AD war in progress... have much of continent and so far only built 2 settlers!
Went directly on to the Americans - took Washington 575 BC - no America by 300AD.
Then immediately on to Spain before she had Longbows - took Seville 350AD.
At 500AD war in progress... have much of continent and so far only built 2 settlers!
I settled 1E, which was fortunate. Since I didn't know if the starting continent was big enough for domination, I didn't dare to rush with Skirmishers. So, I settled a second city to the north east. I also built the stonehenge since I didn't want to build obelisks in the newly captured cities. Perhaps not that clever, and I will never find out 
My strategy was to attack with Horse Archers, due to the normal speed setting.
Then I attacked Isa, but stopped before Madrid (archers on hills *shudder*). At that time, I counted the tiles and noticed there were a few excess tiles . So, I launched against Washington, and finally Montezuma. Then I captured the final cities of Washington and Isa, settled a lot of settler to fill our the gaps. At this time, I had Code of Laws, which enabled quick border expansion. Then I noticed I didn't have enough population 
I'm not very good at managing this kind of play, and did not optimize the final 20 turns very well. And I'm not sure that delaying the initial attack was the best strategy either. Someone will for sure finish this game in the BC years.
My strategy was to attack with Horse Archers, due to the normal speed setting.
Then I attacked Isa, but stopped before Madrid (archers on hills *shudder*). At that time, I counted the tiles and noticed there were a few excess tiles
. So, I launched against Washington, and finally Montezuma. Then I captured the final cities of Washington and Isa, settled a lot of settler to fill our the gaps. At this time, I had Code of Laws, which enabled quick border expansion. Then I noticed I didn't have enough population I'm not very good at managing this kind of play, and did not optimize the final 20 turns very well. And I'm not sure that delaying the initial attack was the best strategy either. Someone will for sure finish this game in the BC years.
Htadus
A and L's dad
Then I attacked Isa, but stopped before Madrid (archers on hills *shudder*). At that time, I counted the tiles and noticed there were a few excess tiles
How do you know if there are enough tiles?
BTW, that is not a bad time frame to finish.
I haven't read the whole thread yet, so please excuse me if I say something redundant.
@morpheus11, the advicing post of @Trynthlas is very good. I would only add that you built your 2 cities without any food resource (I don't consider a plains cow a food resource, it's only 3f). Please, never do that again. You need 2 or at least 1 food resource (5 or 6 food) in every city.
Oh, oh, see you in the final spoiler, then
I also consider settling in place a huge mistake, even without the knowledge of what lied East. Not settling for 1 or 2 turns pays off very easily when the starting position is so bad. Of course, I happened to settle on the monster tile.
Building WW in a GPFarm? Hmmm... I'd never disturb my artists to send them to the mines. Their soft hands would suffer and their inspiration would fly away.
@morpheus11, the advicing post of @Trynthlas is very good. I would only add that you built your 2 cities without any food resource (I don't consider a plains cow a food resource, it's only 3f). Please, never do that again. You need 2 or at least 1 food resource (5 or 6 food) in every city.
Oh, oh, see you in the final spoiler, then
I also consider settling in place a huge mistake, even without the knowledge of what lied East. Not settling for 1 or 2 turns pays off very easily when the starting position is so bad. Of course, I happened to settle on the monster tile.
Building WW in a GPFarm? Hmmm... I'd never disturb my artists to send them to the mines. Their soft hands would suffer and their inspiration would fly away.
The Demographic page states you land area, which is the number of land tiles within your cultural borders. Then you look at the Victory page where your percentage is stated (together with needed %). Simple maths gives you a rough estimate of what you need.
You can also look at the bottom right score list, where the available land tiles are stated. Again, you can use the percentage stated in the Victory page to predict the needed tiles.
The tricky part is of course to count the available tiles on the continent. A bit of scouting revealed almost 300 tiles, then I hoped there would be another bunch south of Madrid.
EDIT: one other way to find our is to let HOF warn you when you are 50% away.
You wouldn't happen to have a screenshot of that kiss, would you?
Forget about "reasonable" and trade. You can trade the same tech to several AI, or you can trade the tech you get to other AI that doesn't have it... Or simply you can get Alpha+Maths for the price of Alpha.Alphabet was shortly after, but none of the neighbors would trade anything at anything approaching a reasonable trade, so I don't think I was really missing out. Tech-wise, the only really useful one that they had (since I didn't really have a religion spread yet) that I didn't possess was Math, but I wanted Math and OR for Alphabet and Monty wouldn't budge.
A late victory date indicates that the AI hasn't build the spaceship by that time... so no info after 500AD, please, be it a soon date or a late date.
I wholeheartedly agree.
My own spoiler soon...
Adonias
Warlord
I settled in place and found the game to be fairly easy... (see first post)
I think its got more to do with the fact that if you get it right (by chance) as a not so good player and take your time for everything, everything works out, the game is easy... (in fact making you a better player
)jesusin, contender. Goal: fastest cultural.
Since we are not philo, we won't get many GA, so I expect to make up for this in the way of religions and cathedrals.
Turn 1:
I won't settle in place. A cow and a silk? That's not enough for a capital. I will move and look the surroundings, then choose the perfect place to settle. The worst thing that could happen is that there are dozen of resources hidden and then the initial spot is the best place to settle; in that case I would only lose 1 or 2 turns to go back. But imagine my desperation if I were to save those 1-2 turns and then find out that I have not settled in the best place and I have missed a gold or something!
Warrior NE. Settler NE. See the gold. Should I plan to get a CS slingshot? I consider settling here, I have not lost a turn yet. If I do, I will have 3 food from the cow but working the gold will consume 2 of them, leaving me with a capital that grows 1fpt. Not nearly enough. This is not a good place to settle. Let's keep on moving. Settler E. See rice.
Time played so far: 10 minutes.
Turn 2:
War NE. I am on a blue circle. Should I settle here? Or should I move 1S and settle there? By moving S I would save a forest and I would trade a prairy for a plains. But by staying I am on a blue circle. Do I trust the AI settling pattern? Of course I don't. Then forget the blue thing and use your brains. I move 1S and settle (2E of the initial position). Rice, gold, cow, silk, dyes all in the FC. Not bad for a single turn invested.
The blue circle happened to prefer a second silk to a dyes and didn't take into account the wood, bah!
Time played so far: 50 minutes.
Now, what to research, what to produce?
Do I know that there is very little land? No, it's high waters, but I could very well be alone on this island. And Emperor AI doesn't get 2 settlers. So I am not in hurry to claim the land, I won't build a settler first.
If I wait to pop2 to start a worker, would the time needed be almost the same as building the worker at size 1? In other words, are there 2 wonderful unimproved tiles that I want to be working asap? No, no magic tiles. So I won't start with a warrior, but worker first. (Another reason to go Warrior first would be to go worker stealing, but I don't know if there are neighbours or not and I want to play a peaceful cultural game).
So worker first it is. Now, what to research? 3 options:
a) Agri+AH for developping the available tiles.
b) BW for immediate chopping and slavery.
c) Myst+Poly for a religion.
c) is tempting. I said I will need lots of cathedrals. Delaying Agriculture while having a rice nearby is an expensive investment, though. If I was sure I would get the religion I would do it. But others can start with Myst and I have already lost 1 turn. What if I try and then get no religion? I would have delayed Agi for nothing! No way!
b) is tempting. Slavery wouldn't be of much use until there is a big excess of food. But chopping settlers and workers must be nice. I don't know why but I never choose this path, I just found myself mumbling something like "inherent inneficiency of pre-maths chopping". So I could very well be mistaken, but I discard this option (please, be aware that this sentence implies that I am 100% sure that there has been no mistake so far in any of the previous decisions!
).
So I choose Agri. Any reason to not build a worker now that I know what I am researching? No. (There could have been a reason if I had chosen to go for a religion and there was nothing to mine). So Agri and worker it is.
Time played so far: 75 minutes.
Turns 3-10:
I explore with my warrior and find 3 AIs. I reasses my strategy every time. The strategy now is:
- Land is scarce, must put a settler out asap. The quickest and more regarding way is to grow to size 3 while building a settler scort and then build the settler while working rice+cow+gold. (This was reassessed when horses appeared).
- Isabel is good at getting religions, she will be my friend, I will addopt her religion, we will open borders and she will get me a lot of religions.
- Roos is peaceful, with +1peace,+2OB,+4gifts and later +2years of trading resources he will be pleased even if we have different religions. He will be my trade partner. Alphabet is a priority.
- Monte is crazy, he could ruin my game when I shut down research. And I said that land is scarce... let me think... I've got it! Monte will give me his cities!
Now, early charriot rush or late catapult rush? He founds Hindu, so his cultural defenses are high, let's go for cats. I don't want him to be strong and I don't need to be his friend, so my warriors will try to steal his workers.
Time played so far: 100 minutes.
Turns11-500AD:
I settled some cities, researched some techs, stole some workers, built some buldings, killed one civ and made some mistakes.
Time played: a few minutes more than 100. No need to think a lot in this phase. Everything has already been decided in the first 10 turns. From turn 11 I new it would be a great victory. Little mistakes only delayed victory a few turns. All mistakes after turn10 are little, by definition.
More details in the last spoiler.
Since we are not philo, we won't get many GA, so I expect to make up for this in the way of religions and cathedrals.
Turn 1:
I won't settle in place. A cow and a silk? That's not enough for a capital. I will move and look the surroundings, then choose the perfect place to settle. The worst thing that could happen is that there are dozen of resources hidden and then the initial spot is the best place to settle; in that case I would only lose 1 or 2 turns to go back. But imagine my desperation if I were to save those 1-2 turns and then find out that I have not settled in the best place and I have missed a gold or something!
Warrior NE. Settler NE. See the gold. Should I plan to get a CS slingshot? I consider settling here, I have not lost a turn yet. If I do, I will have 3 food from the cow but working the gold will consume 2 of them, leaving me with a capital that grows 1fpt. Not nearly enough. This is not a good place to settle. Let's keep on moving. Settler E. See rice.
Time played so far: 10 minutes.
Turn 2:
War NE. I am on a blue circle. Should I settle here? Or should I move 1S and settle there? By moving S I would save a forest and I would trade a prairy for a plains. But by staying I am on a blue circle. Do I trust the AI settling pattern? Of course I don't. Then forget the blue thing and use your brains. I move 1S and settle (2E of the initial position). Rice, gold, cow, silk, dyes all in the FC. Not bad for a single turn invested.
The blue circle happened to prefer a second silk to a dyes and didn't take into account the wood, bah!
Time played so far: 50 minutes.
Now, what to research, what to produce?
Do I know that there is very little land? No, it's high waters, but I could very well be alone on this island. And Emperor AI doesn't get 2 settlers. So I am not in hurry to claim the land, I won't build a settler first.
If I wait to pop2 to start a worker, would the time needed be almost the same as building the worker at size 1? In other words, are there 2 wonderful unimproved tiles that I want to be working asap? No, no magic tiles. So I won't start with a warrior, but worker first. (Another reason to go Warrior first would be to go worker stealing, but I don't know if there are neighbours or not and I want to play a peaceful cultural game).
So worker first it is. Now, what to research? 3 options:
a) Agri+AH for developping the available tiles.
b) BW for immediate chopping and slavery.
c) Myst+Poly for a religion.
c) is tempting. I said I will need lots of cathedrals. Delaying Agriculture while having a rice nearby is an expensive investment, though. If I was sure I would get the religion I would do it. But others can start with Myst and I have already lost 1 turn. What if I try and then get no religion? I would have delayed Agi for nothing! No way!
b) is tempting. Slavery wouldn't be of much use until there is a big excess of food. But chopping settlers and workers must be nice. I don't know why but I never choose this path, I just found myself mumbling something like "inherent inneficiency of pre-maths chopping". So I could very well be mistaken, but I discard this option (please, be aware that this sentence implies that I am 100% sure that there has been no mistake so far in any of the previous decisions!
).So I choose Agri. Any reason to not build a worker now that I know what I am researching? No. (There could have been a reason if I had chosen to go for a religion and there was nothing to mine). So Agri and worker it is.
Time played so far: 75 minutes.
Turns 3-10:
I explore with my warrior and find 3 AIs. I reasses my strategy every time. The strategy now is:
- Land is scarce, must put a settler out asap. The quickest and more regarding way is to grow to size 3 while building a settler scort and then build the settler while working rice+cow+gold. (This was reassessed when horses appeared).
- Isabel is good at getting religions, she will be my friend, I will addopt her religion, we will open borders and she will get me a lot of religions.
- Roos is peaceful, with +1peace,+2OB,+4gifts and later +2years of trading resources he will be pleased even if we have different religions. He will be my trade partner. Alphabet is a priority.
- Monte is crazy, he could ruin my game when I shut down research. And I said that land is scarce... let me think... I've got it! Monte will give me his cities!
Now, early charriot rush or late catapult rush? He founds Hindu, so his cultural defenses are high, let's go for cats. I don't want him to be strong and I don't need to be his friend, so my warriors will try to steal his workers.
Time played so far: 100 minutes.
Turns11-500AD:
I settled some cities, researched some techs, stole some workers, built some buldings, killed one civ and made some mistakes.
Time played: a few minutes more than 100. No need to think a lot in this phase. Everything has already been decided in the first 10 turns. From turn 11 I new it would be a great victory. Little mistakes only delayed victory a few turns. All mistakes after turn10 are little, by definition.
More details in the last spoiler.
Adonias
Warlord
Nice writeup... The insight you give on how to play/plan a game is very interesting and expunges any "lucky draws" I was referring to earlier on. Can't wait for the final spoiler!
Jesusin, thanks for the spoiler. I agree on everything, apart your initial settlement spot. Settling on the silk tile increases the research with 20%. This is a significant increase. Working a river cottage later would then give you 2 food and very quickly provide as much commerce than the gold mine (+2 from city and 3-6 from cottage/hamlet/village/town). Then when you are at pop limit, you can work the gold, yes?
Harbourboy
Deity
I think I see the fundamental difference between my games and the people who actually win. 50 minutes for 2 turns? I would have spent closer to 50 seconds on my first 2 moves................
Thank you for the feedback, @Adonias, @Erkon and @Harbourboy. I was uneasy because I thought I could have been a bit too high and mighty.
It is so important to state your goal before taking any decision! That way, all your decisions are focused and contribute to your goal. And of course, the first few decisions are the most important of the game.
@Erkon, I (think I) understand your argument, but I don't understand where the cottage you are comparing to the silk comes from. I settled on a plains, not on a prairie. With my settling I have one more 2-food tile.
If I had wanted to pursue an early religion I would have settled on the silk, no doubt. I was more worried about the total number of commerce tiles in the long term that on the science rate short term. Also, if your goal was Domination it was better to settle on the silk. (You see?, another example of decisions taken according to your goal).
Sorry, I was perhaps not clear enough. You said you wanted to work the gold, yes?
Settling on plains and working the gold, you get 1
from city, 7 and 3
from gold hill. Settling on silk and working a village, you get 3 from city, 2
and ~3-6 from cottage grassland.With these two scenarios, you either get 3
or 2 (or 1 + 1 if you cottage the plains). With the silk-tile, you get significantly more in the early part of the game, something that is crucial even for cultural victories. The turns you save in the start are also saved at the end, and they multiply!And long term: I presume you cottaged the silk, yes? If so, you actually lost one
since your city only provided 1. Ok, you gained 1Summary: I claim that settling on the silk was better both short term and long term, irrelevant of the victory condition you pursued!
PS: Those of you who does not follow the succession games may think this kind of reasoning is tedious. Imagine then what happens when the Murky Waters (TM) team starts discussion the initial settlement spot in SWOTM6 in a week or two
No wonder we spend 100+ posts before we play the first turn 
Not high and mighty, confident and correct is more like it. Very good spoiler that perfectly captures the decision making process. I'd easily nominate it "best spoiler" for this game.
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