GOTM 28 Spoiler 1 - End Of Ancient Age, Full View of Starting Continent

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by Abegweit

BTW, I built Karachi in exactly the same spot as you. I also jammed Ganges onto the Persian side of the mountains, just northeast of your city of Bengal.

Here's another example of AI stupidity for your perusal. Persia built its tourist town, Sardis, in the same area as I built Hyderabad, except that it did so 100 years earlier. Yet I got the furs and horses! It simply has no idea of resource denial. I think that it assumed that the furs belonged to Someothercity of Someothercountry and that the horses would be theirs once the borders expanded. Instead, I squeezed Hyderabad in between the two.

When you get time, post a pic. I'd like to review your city placement. I should have built Punjab on the coast and placed another settlement north of Lahore. Still need to work on this aspect of the game.

I almost went with the Predator game this time, but chickened out. How was diplomacy w/ Persia early on? Did Xerxes try extorting gold early and often? I made a comment in my personal notes that Persia didn't seem very aggressive. In fact, I started our first war purposely by demanding his withdrawal from my lands.

 

[Abegweit]

This is the first time I have ever tried predator myself. I wasn't sure what to expect.

As I said, Persia repeatedly demanded small amounts of gold and my tech trades often involved gpt deals. They were always polite, though. I'm not at all an expert on reputation, but I assume that the gpt deals helped keep Mohammed happy. Also, both of my frontline cities were built on hills, making them easier to defend. I doubt that this made a difference... but what do I know? Maybe it did.

The picture below shows my city placement at 1000BC in the CRPRings utility. The black squares are the rest of the cities. The last was Ganges in 775BC. As you can see, I followed a tight 4-8 RCP placement. I like this style, although I usually do 4-9. Just not enough room on this continent for that.

Edit: I just realised that I should have stuck with my standard 4-9 placement! Just because Karachi has to be at 8, it doesn't mean that the northern cities have to be as well! At a distance of 9, I could have stuck in one more city, placed one on tundra instead of grass and given more space to Bengal and Calcutta to grow! All this sacrificed for a minor decrease in corruption. Stupid. Stupid Stupid.

 

[HookEmHorns]

PTW 1.27f Predator

Having done well as the Mongols and the Han (took a pass last month), I decided to try Predator. After moving my worker east, I saw the cattle and settled in the spot. My worker irrigated then moved to the cow and irrigated so that it was generating the extra food just after growing. That worked well.

I built one warrior who went exploring and then started the granary pre-build (max research on pottery). The warrior explored to the south meeting the Persians. Trading commenced and things were going along well.

In order to get a good six-turn settler factory going, I needed to get 3 of the grass bonuses mined. This would give 30 shields during the 3 turns at size 5 and also 30 shields at the 3 turns at size 6. An excellent city. The worker got going on this though development of the tiles was slow.

When the granary finished, a settler came next. The settler moved east to get the second cow. Unfortunately, the settler got whacked by a barbarian just before settling.

After the settler, a warrior was next. Two Persian warriors came next to the border so I cut a deal paying them gpt for tech to gain favor. No luck, they marched in and then declared war. My warrior fell and the game was over around 2500 BC or so.

At least my replay is going much better!

 

[civ_steve]

1.21f

Since I was actually starting this game at the beginning of the month, I thought I'd do a few things differently than I'd been doing in recent months. For instance: I've made Settler factories nearly every month, this time I decided before the game to not make any Granaries and just build Settlers from scratch. Since India is Religious, and starts with the ability to make a cultural building (which is very easy to rush in Despotism, also), I'd go for 100K culture from the get-go; I've only done one other 100K culture game before (Celts). Therefore I need a lot of towns, so even though I've never really tried ICS, I'd try to cram as many towns together as I could from the beginning.

I moved my Worker East to the BG, and what do you know, there WAS a cow there! (Good eyes!) So I moved the Settler 1 space SE, and founded Delhi there. I decided to do minimum research down the Mysticism-Polytheism-Monarchy path. Delhi built a Warrior for scouting, then a Worker to help the first Worker mine all those BGs, a 2nd Warror for more scouting, then started on its 1st Settler, which was finished in 3050, and founded Bombay near the 2nd Cow in 3000.

I met Xerxes in 3050 BC, also. IIRC Predator level had some AI's attitude adjusted - I think his was made worse! He was Annoyed, and wasn't interested in making any form of reasonable deal, so I gifted him 1 gpt to change his attitude: no visible effect! This told me that I'd better set up good defenses in the mountainous region between our 2 zones. There was a Hut just outside of his cultural boundary, which I hit and was taught Pottery; so I go back and trade him CerBurial, Pottery and 5 Gold for BronzeWorking; still Annoyed! At this point I didn't want to find out what would make him smile!

Anyway, I kept producing Settlers and building towns. Defense lagged a bit initially, and Barbs actually killed a defender and sacked a town for 37 Gold! But, I started to turn the tide and cleared my half of the continent of Barbs, and started posting Warriors in the mountain belt. I learned Mysticism first, after 40 turns, but Xerxes again wasn't much of a trader; I ended up trading Alphabet and Mysticism for The Wheel and 25 Gold. I look around, and there's no Horses! What a horrible trade, and then for no benefit. At this point I could only build Warriors and Spearmen; not good! I'd started a minimum research of Polytheism, so a few turns later (1550 BC), I bought Warrior Code from Persia for 3 gpt and 75 gold. I'd pretty much determined I was alone with the X-man, so I was going to take him on with Warriors and Archers. Fortunately my ICS-like style would support this, and now I had an offensive unit to pop-rush right before the big push.

Anyway, I continued on. At 1000 BC I had 17 towns, with 25 citizens total, and 1130 Gold in the treasury. Only 1 building, a Temple in Bangalore to reach the nearby Whales. Here are snapshots of my empire, and my army. I've done a good job of building up a mountain defense, which will form the bulk of my SOD when I declare against Persia.






I learn Polytheism the next turn; I hold off trading it until I'm ready to attack. So in 710 BC I trade Poly and 10 gpt for Writing and IronWorking, then promptly declare War. I see there is Iron in the central mountains (see below shot), but none in Persia. Actually, only about 4-5 Immortals are ever seen; wherever Persia had their Iron, it must have run out (which is incredible luck for me!!) I've got about 20 Warriors and 15 Archers in my SOD, and the nearest Persian city is toast quickly. Meanwhile, stacks of Archers, Warriors and Spearmen are forming defensive barriers to the East, as Persia tries to penetrate through the mountains from Susa; I'm relying on the Archers defensive barrage to wound the attackers coming in, and my remaining units can attack the surviving attackers if they're sufficiently wounded, or hunker down for the next round if not. Pure attrition. Meanwhile, my SOD advances, engaging a spread out defense; the RNG is very streaky as I lose 8 Archers and 2 Warriors attacking 2 Archers and 1 Spearman, unfortified, in the open with no defensive benefits! This takes the momentum away, and I pause to wait for Swordsmen to appear. When they do, Susa quickly falls, and then Persepolis. Persia had built the Pyramids here, so I now have a very valuable Wonder, and I'm ready to declare Peace, and really focus on cranking out cultural buildings, in 110 BC.

Shortly before Persepolis falls, I was contacted by 'civ#1' (who had built the Great Lighthouse, BTW), in 270 BC. I buy Literature for 235 Gold from 'civ#1'; I've built Temples almost everywhere, so now I can start building Libraries for culture. Before I offer Peace to Persia, I buy Masonry from 'civ#1' for 35 Gold, so from Persia I get Math, MapMaking, CodeofLaws,Philosophy and Horsebackriding. Persia also has Republic, 'civ#1' has Construction and Currency, and I have just learned Monarchy (in 130 BC), which no one wants to trade for. I crank up the research on Construction, do 6 out of 8 turns and buy it for 322 Gold, then do 5 out of 6 turns on Currency and buy it for 230 gold, and I'm in the Middle Ages, in 30 AD. I'm still in Despotism, as my army is too large to be fully supported unde a Monarchy, and quite frankly, I'm planning to do a lot more pop-rushing! Total culture in 30AD is 1075, gaining 58 cpt.

I did start building/rushing Galleys starting in 110 BC, and I've made contact with 'civ#2', who is still missing a couple required AA Techs. Here's a snapshot from 30 AD, showing the mountain regions, with 2 iron sources!, and my incursions into Persian territory ... so far. I think I can cram maybe 40 towns into 'my' continent, which will eventually generate over 1000 culture per turn, once all the buildings have doubled their cultural value. Not the fastest start towards this goal, but putting Xerxes in his place had top priority.



Very challenging start! A 3rd civ on our continent would have been nice; trading would have been easier to achieve, and a possible ally vs Xerxes is always nice. Great game, Ainwood, although it's nice to have SOME resources to start off with.

 

[Boyd]

Open... Mac v1.29b2

The Ancient Age (sorry no screen shots)

Upon moving the worker E we think we can see a second bovine so it is decided to move the settler NE across the river and found Delhi in 3950BC with two bovines and spices within Delhi’s radius. Immediately training a warrior and pottery is researched at 90%. The first warrior (3700) begins exploring NE. Second warrior (3500) begins exploring S and Delhi expands. Pottery in 3350 and Bronze Working in 40 turns and the third warrior is switched to Granary (17 turns), judicious use of the Lux slider will be necessary.

Strange, terrible beasts are found to the NW yet they grow an amazing luxury called ivory that the people desire. Sheep are found to the S

In 3150 scouts bring word of Mohammed of the Persians and much trading occurs (Bronze Working & Masonry for Alphabet, Pottery, 17gp & 2gpt). Researching Writing at minimum.

In 2800 the granary is finished. Start spearman (3 turns) and settler to follow. Delhi will grow to in 4 turns.

In 2710 the Persian border is spotted.

In 2510 a settler built and with spearman set off due south to river delta/coast site by the mountains and Bombay founded in 2390 and a temple is started with a worker to follow.

Another settler is finished in Delhi and with a spearmen they set off for the Valley of Mutton. We have deemed this choke point to be vital to our interests.

Doh! Civil disorder in Delhi in 2190… lux up to 30%. Spices are connected in 2070.

The long trek to the Valley of Mutton results in Madras founded in 1910 beside a barbarian encampment. The warrior exploring the S has trespassed successfully through Persian lands and we start to get a strong feeling about the shape of the landmass.

The Advising Council suggest a policy of cooperation with the Persians… we need their technology and we need peace. Accordingly, Warrior Code from Persia for 126gp in 1870BC. We give in to Persian extortion in 1625 (27gp). In furtherance on this strategy an embassy is established in Persopolis in 1600. Iron working from Persia for 250gp in 1450. Arbela is sitting on the only Iron! The Council’s worst-case scenario has been shown to be correct.

Switch to mapmaking. Persopolis is building the pyramids (68 turns in 2 sized town)… I hope they get it!

In 1650 Bangalore founded to the SW on the coast and Calcutta founded to the NW of Delhi in 1525. Lahore founded W of Delhi (access to whales and rocks) in 1400 and Karachi founded due N in 1225

Bombay will be the wonder city and begins The Colossus in 1450 but rumour arrives of another people who finish The Colossus in 1200 so Bombay switches to Palace.

Kohlapur founded by ivory (1000). At the QSC the score is 219 vs. 224 for Persia and India has eight cities.

Jaipur founded in NE peninsula (900)… all the available city sites are occupied.

Persopolis completes the Pyramids (730) and another people complete the Great Wall in 710.

In 690 Persians begin to gather on the frontier (we of course have never forgotten the extortion that was levied upon us). Persian incursions into India have resulted in false promises to withdraw and our people brace themselves for the inevitable.

The First Persian War (600BC - 70BC)

Mapmaking is complete (600) and Bombay switches to the Great Lighthouse (17 turns) and the Wheel is sought in four turns. The Persians continue to trespass and war is declared when they refuse to leave. First blood to India!

The Wheel completed (520 but no horses to be seen on the continent) and Mysticism in four (440). Literature in ten turns.

Madras in the Valley of Mutton continues to hold despite repeated Persian assaults.

In 430 a sail is seen off the coast and they are hailed… We exchange Mysticism and 30gp for Horseback Riding (of course we have no idea what horses are but it sounded so good!). An embassy is established immediately upon the successful completion of the negotiations and a RoP is negotiated but no alliance. Code of Laws and Philosophy for 273gp.

The Persian aggression continues to pay dearly for its mistake.

In Bombay The Great Lighthouse will be finished in six, but Literature in five. Hmm… but the answer is made for us as those who completed The Colossus complete The Great Lighthouse. Over to the Palace.

The Valley of Mutton is strewn with mortal Immortals.

The other Civ establishes a town (310) on the NW peninsula in an attempt to access ivory. In 290, Bombay switches to Great Library… 10 turns!

The counter attack against Sidon fails and the Persians secure an important choke point in the Valley of Mutton only to be driven out again.

The Great Peace (70BC...)

Great Library in Bombay in 90! Science down to 0%. In 70BC, as the defenses in the Valley of Mutton finally give way, peace is agreed with Persia paying 22 gp in compensation.

Literature is traded to the other Civ for 178gp.

Another border is seen across the water from Persia… our galley will attempt contact. The RoP with the other Civ is continued with 5gp to ensure compliance (10AD). Contact established with another Civ and an embassy is established followed by a RoP for 22 gp.

The discovery of Iron in the mountains NW of Madras in 110AD results in nationalist songs mocking immortality being heard everywhere.

The Great Library takes India into the Medieval Age in 170AD. The score is India: 473; Persia: 372; Civ IV: 328; Civ III: 298.

Love the map and the game so far! I was hoping we would be forced to build the War Elephant as opposed to converting Horsemen.

[edited to include class and version]

 

[Txurce]

I didn't know that the RNG could result in placing ancient-era sources of iron on some maps, and not others. How does this work? Talk about different games!

 

[Txurce]

Mac 1.29

I moved my settler east, spotted the cattle, and moved the settler toward it, founding Delhi in 3950. It never occurred to me to build a settler factory with the two cattles – inspired idea! – but don’t think it mattered much in this game. Like civsteve, I decided to go for 100K cultural in this game (and in the foreseeable future), but took a different approach than ICS from the start. We’ll see what works better!

I researched pottery at max, built a granary after a warrior in Delhi, then settled into a settler/warrior cycle until I filled my territory with 12 cities. Bombay was on the coast, taking advantage of the second cattle. After a temple build, it started on a wonder prebuild. My plan was to build the Lighthouse, as I think it has become the key early wonder with the revised contact rules. The rest of the productive cities started on barracks, with the more isolated ones rushing temples first.

My first explorer went north for a bit, then SW. I met Persia in 2670, late enough that it wouldn’t allow me through its land. In 1650 I researched writing, which allowed me to negotiate a RoP that eventually revealed we were alone on the continent. I then traded for iron working, which revealed that Persia had the only continental source under one of its cities. Persia became increasingly powerful, building the Pyramids, but was nothing but polite after I established an embassy.

In 825, I finished the Lighthouse, and sent off two galleys – one from the east, and one from the west. The western galley met civ 1 in 670 and civ 2 in 560; the eastern galley met civs 3 and 4 in 710, and 5 and 6 before the end of the ancient era. These encounters sped up my research. I started building libraries, markets and temples as well as archers. India became a monarchy in 570, and entered the Middle Ages in 450 BC. My invasion of Persia would have to wait for the dawn of the next era.

 

[Megalou]

Persia built its tourist town, Sardis, in the same area as I built Hyderabad, except that it did so 100 years earlier. Yet I got the furs and horses! It simply has no idea of resource denial. I think that it assumed that the furs belonged to Someothercity of Someothercountry and that the horses would be theirs once the borders expanded.

The AI will NEVER build a city two tiles away from another city. Dunno if this has any relevance to your situation, but it sure is nice to know. (By "two tiles" I mean to include diagonal tiles, even though two dialgonal tiles actually means "distance 3".)

Myself, I did not have the guts to settle the grassland area south of the mountains because it would have put more pressure on my defense, which doesn't suit my building style. One productive city in the "green canal" through the mountains was what I wanted. You pointed out that horses can be upgraded to war elephants. I overlooked this strange fact which might have been a good reason to settle where you did. I won't blame anything on that though, since I did not buy The Wheel early on for the outrages price that some people have complained about. Really couldn't because the Persians seemed to play "Simon says" whenever I decided to research something.

BTW, I agree with Txurce's short post: Is it civ-steve "The Iron Man's" birthday today?

 

[denyd]

Edit to add: PTW 1.27 - Open

Like Txsrce I have to wonder how the resource locations will affect the final results.

My game though had a similar start as his with no iron or horses in our local area and the only iron on the continent being in SW Persia. I settled on the opening spot and started with the same warriors build that most others did. I set research at minimum for Writing. I met Persia in 3200 BC and was able to trade CB+$ for BW. Bombay was founded in 3100 on the coast at the NE of the river and built a temple & settler before starting Colossus, which completed in 1350 BC, kicking off a surprise Golden Age (I forgot about the commercial part of Colossus ). I later traded Pottery (gotten from a hut) & Alphabet for Masonry & Warrior Code and eventually bought Iron Working, Mysticism & The Wheel from Persia as the QSC ended. I finished the nearly extinct QSC with just seven cities (not a real priority).

My pre-game plans of early peaceful development would work until near the end of the Ancient Age as with just four turns to go on when a stack of immortals entered my lands south of Lahore (in the aptly named Mutton Valley). Using spearmen, catapults and a couple of archers, I was able to hold the city until Mohammed tired of the war and bought peace for 50g. By then I had completed the Great Library & the Hanging Gardens. Persia was shutout of the AA wonder grab as the others went to AI on other islands. I've also noticed that Persia seems to have been given a science boost (beyond normal). They seem to be able to acquire 2 techs by the time I get 1, and that's before Map Making (so no galleys, ie no off island trades).

So far things are going according to pre-game plan, but I’m sure Persia will be returning in larger numbers.

 

[civ_steve]

(I should go buy a Lotto ticket!)

I didn't get IronWorking until I made the Poly trade (710 BC), so I don't know the Iron situation prior to that time. Persia must have had a source at some time (they did have a few Immortals) but at 710 BC they had none. And I don't have any saves from around that time, but I could almost swear that only one source, the Eastern one, was present when I got IronWorking, and the other actually appeared sometime later (but I'm not sure about that.) The RNG is surely going to be rather different game to game: some people have moderate to mass Immortal invasions, and I know the pile of bodies on the plains of Persepolis in my game approaches Braveheart levels.

denyd: what class are you playing in - open? Persia appears to have been more giving in its trading with you.

In my game, Persia never made any demands, but again I was paying him some gpt for most of the period, so if he had made a demand he risked losing that income, such as it was.

BTW - I like the Valley of Mutton label

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Conquest

I moved my worker east and saw the cow and settled one tile NE. I too was able to set up the settler factory, and it allowed me to grab the northern part of our island, and establish a city in the Mutton Valley and at the mouth of the Mutton River.

And like Denyd, I sparked my GA with the Colossus. The X-man marched a warrior up to the gates of Delhi and parked him on the SE cow very early and before I could mine and road it. I asked him to leave and of course he declared war. I placed several spears along the southern end of the mountain range and watched Persian archers impale themselves on my speartips. In soite of his numerous losses, it took X-man about 20 turns to become reasonable and settle for a straight peace. The boy is going to need some spanking, but that is beyond this thread.

I grabbed all of the northern end of the island except for "Civ not to be named #1" who grabbed the far NW tile.

I also was able to build the Great Library when I lost out on the Lighthouse to the previously unnamed civ #1.

Having that unnamed civ around was nice since they sold me horses and I started a herd of horsemen for the eventual upgrade to Jumbos. I have to say that the idea of upgrading a horse to an elephant still tickles my funnybone.

Reach the MA around 100 AD.

 

[Affirmative]

I thought that resources were pre-set on a map, and when the tech was discovered they appeared.

Am I incorrect? Or is there a thing in the editor that allows 'random' resources placement. Life would have been much easier if I had had iron.

 

[civ_steve]

Affirmative: I believe you are correct - starting locations for resources are fixed on a map at the beginning of the game. Based on the other posts, it would seem in my game that at least TWO sources of Iron being used by other civs exhausted themselves, and then randomly reappeared in the central mountain region.

 

[Affirmative]

Does anyone have a calculator for determining the chances of a resource exhaustion? I wonder what the chances are of two becoming exhausted.


The lack of iron let me use a unit I'd never used before. (longbow)

 

[ainwood]

Originally posted by Affirmative
Does anyone have a calculator for determining the chances of a resource exhaustion? I wonder what the chances are of two becoming exhausted.


The lack of iron let me use a unit I'd never used before. (longbow)

Well, there's a 1 in 800 chance each turn of each iron being 'lost', in which case it reappears somewhere else.

 

[Grotius]

I'm playing PTW Open.

First off, I'd like to join the chorus of praise for ainwood. This GOTM answered my request from the last one: an opening position that would make a quick ancient-age conquista difficult if not impossible. More generally, I enjoy the challenge of missing resources.

Anyway, I settled on the spot and was amused to find the much-debated cow. The Persians and I met in the mountain range, and I founded Lahore in the river valley splitting the mountains. I was surprised at how strong Lahore would become; I haven't played many of these modded maps, and I was delighted to see that mountains can grow food, too.

Like most other players, I soon discovered that I had neither horses nor iron. I did try to create an archer/warrior stack of death in Lahore, but those Immortals started showing up in large numbers. The Persians declared war twice, and each time I was proud that my guys not only held them off but managed to push into Persian territory -- but each time my offensive (archers and spearmen and eventually a few catapults) petered out as I seemed to lose two units for every Immortal. I don't remember the last time I used so many danged archers!

I did a terrible job taking notes, so I'm not quite sure when I entered the Middle Ages. Pretty late, as I recall. Even so, by that point I was doing pretty well on research and points compared to everyone except the evil Persians. [I'm not sure if I can say how many civs I'd met by the end of the AA].

Like most everyone else, I can't wait to get those War Elephants.

 

[Garvarg]

Yikes, compared to you folks, I am in serious trouble.
I didn't enter the middle ages until 450 AD with 10 cities and a good sized army to kick some Persian butt.

Like many of you, I sent out warriors to scout out the land, and decided to build a few cities in the mountains to stop any AI expansion until I got around building my own cities in the north to the hinterland.

 

[jaafit]

Gees, at least most of you people were smart enough to settle in the mountains. I'm psychologicaly scarred from my ongoing hotseat game in which another civ settled right next to my capital and stayed there for 2000 years before flipping (they were persians too btw). To prevent this, I made sure I had my local cities before expanding to the South, and ended up with 9 total. I DID manage to settle in Mutton Valley though, which was crucial to my defense against Persia.

Speaking of whom, let me take this opportunity to say that along with the great map, iron-less starting, ivory/cows/etc, I found this to be a great map for another reason: having Persia as your neighbor. I couldn't have asked for a more interesting challenge. I loved how every turn durning my war with the Persians I was seriously wondering if I could hold on to Mutton Valley. "Can I really hold out against another wave of immortals? Can I make it?" Oh wow, it was intense. Thank you Ainwood. I didn't write a log or anything, but I did snap this screenshot of my early defense against Persia.

hmm... how do i attach an image?... Maybe I could use ascii art.

Oh well. I'll edit later. Oh and I got Great Library, so I'm happy about that. No Lighthouse though. I lost 6 suicide galleys in a row and decided to call it quits so I could focus on eliminating Persia.

 

[jaafit]

attach!

 

[Salte]

Originally posted by ainwood
Well, there's a 1 in 800 chance each turn of each iron being 'lost', in which case it reappears somewhere else.

For some reason i've always thought new resources would only appear in sqaures one were working (which is not what happend in civ-steves game i think). I dont know how i got this impression, but seem to remember it from some old civilopedia.