GOTM 28 Spoiler 1 - End Of Ancient Age, Full View of Starting Continent

[Salte]

PtW 1.27, Open

I moved the worker to the BG, and decide to settle on the grassland to the NE (to save forest for chopping). Was very lucky, as this gave me two cows in my capitol.

Built six cities at a distanse of 4, and also managed to get on city south of the mountains to control one of the passages to persian territory. Got 12 cities in total.
In 1000BC i had 10 cities, 1 settler, 4 workers, 2 temples and one granary.

I didnt dare to try any invasion on Persia when i saw their immortals (was quite surprised because due to bad scouting i couldnt see their iron, and the look of the rest of their land led me to beleive they didnt have it (mostly grassland)). Lucky for me they didnt settle on the iron, but next to it, so i was able to cut it of at some later stage. So i focused on infrastructure, reasearch and new contacs (didnt meet anyone more advanced than me or Persia tho'), and waited eagerly for my War Elephants.

Persia tried one covardly invasion and sneak attack, but i managed to hold them off in the mountains until they agreed to peace. Strangely enough they didnt try to take my grassland city furthest to the south. It was defended with a few units, but would still have been pretty easy to take out with a stack of immortals.

Entered the MA in 150BC, leading on score.

 

[Email10]

Open PTW 1.14f

Pre-start
With the Religious trait for the Indian I decided I wanted to try for a Cultural 20K. Provided I can find some good city site for a cultural city. The initial position did not look so tempting for a Wonder city, but I decided to settle there so I could have time to find a better spot for my second city.

Initial moves
Delhi was founded on spot and my worker started to improve the Bonus Grassland, followed by the cow. Research was set at Writing on lowest possible. Delhi produced 2 warriors before it started to work on the first settler. I wanted my wonder city as quickly as possible.

Xerxes
I met Xerxes when I sent out one of my warriors to scout south. He seemed to be developing ok and we decided to share some techs with each other. I picked up Bronze Working, which I needed to start the work on Colossus. Xerxes seemed to be a nice guy.

Bombay
Bombay was founded 3050BC by the coast, 2E of Delhi, so it had access to both cows, which let it grow very quickly. Meanwhile Delhi was building support troops and a worker so I could develop Bombay quicker. First build was of course a temple. After the temple I started on the Colossus, which was completed in 1675BC, triggering my Golden Age. Pyramids was started. Not a wonder I really wanted, but the only one available right now for med, dure to my tech situation. I would get Mapmaking before the Pyramids was finished so I could switch to the Lighthouse. My hopes were that the Persians would research something I could need.

Disaster
My developing was, apart from Bombay, very slow. At about 1300BC I had only 4 cities, and no offensive power what so ever. Just some spearmen for protection. Xerxes was starting to send some troops my way (mainly archers and spearmen) and I started to get worried. Luckily Delhi was positioned good so it could protect Bombay, but my other 2 cities fell quickly as Xerxes charged with full strength. I was down to 2 cities in 975BC, the same year as I completed the Pyramids. I decided that I would give Lighthouse a shot since it is after all monarch level and I doubt that a lot of other civs hav MM and a productive city like Bombay. I paid some of my gold and some gpt to make peace with Xerxes. He was not so nice after all.

In 925BC, my "empire" looks like this:

Bombay prospers
While at peace with the Persians, Bombay continued to build wonders and at 570BC the Great Lighthouse was completed. Some faraway civ completed the Oracle in 670BC. With a palace prebuild I then managed to time the building of Great Library just in time for my Literacy discovery (due in 2 turn):

Great Library was built in 170BC and from it I got Monarchy from some distand civs that I was able to meet thanks to the Lighthouse. I quickly changed to Monarch and rushed a Library and started on the Hanging Gardens. The Garens was completed in 340AD and Bombay looks like this in 360AD:

Xerxes annoys
Xerxes initiated another war in which I managed to survive without many losses, but also without gains. He still owned most of the cities close to me, and all nice resources like iron and horses. I would have to wait for my Elephants and then he will be toast.

With the help from Great Library I entered Middle Ages at about year 0.

Ancient Summary
I've deliberately tried to keep the tech pace slow so I could get as many wonders as possible, but 5 ancient wonders was even more than I had hoped for. And among them the Pyramids, which usually is to expensive to aim for. I would have built the Oracle instead if me or Persia had discovered Mysticism, but Pyramids had to do. Since I had such a slow start, my score will probably
be pathetic in the end, but nevertheless it is one of the most interesting games I have played, trying to control the Persians without Iron and Horses while developing my own lands.

- Edited: Tried to fix image sizes by making the images smaller before uploading, but they seem to strecht the images anyway. Sorry about that. Anyone know how to fix it?

 

[Affirmative]

Wow Email10! You are in a very good position for a 20k culture victory. Five ancient age wonders will be producing some serious culture.



I suppose you are going to have to be extra nice to our friend the X-man until you get WE's.

 

[Abegweit]

Originally posted by Megalou
The AI will NEVER build a city two tiles away from another city. Dunno if this has any relevance to your situation, but it sure is nice to know.

Indeed it is relevant. It actually built the city six tiles away. Five would have been a better placement and made it harder to steal the horses too - although I still could have done it culturally.

You pointed out that horses can be upgraded to war elephants. I overlooked this strange fact which might have been a good reason to settle where you did.

Personally, I think that War Elephants suck. Worse than useless. As soon as you learn chivalry, you can never build another horseman. I am going to try and avoid making any at all, going straight for cavs. Like you I already have the Lighthouse, so all we need a religious wonder to fire a GA. JS Bach comes along at a nice moment.

BTW, I agree with Txurce's short post: Is it civ-steve "The Iron Man's" birthday today?

It must be.

 

[Drazek]

Originally posted by Abegweit
Personally, I think that War Elephants suck. Worse than useless. As soon as you learn chivalry, you can never build another horseman.

Same here, I'm ignoring chivalry, just have to find horses... The Great Lighthouse was build by others, so connecting horses might be tricky.

Btw, in my game, one iron happened to move near northern place of civ_steve's source in the AA, but I had already whacked Persians.

 

[smackster]

1.27, Open

It was clear to me when the save was opened that it was in fact a cow to the SE and I built Delhi next to that cow. I then saw the other cow, damn. I think I should have built on the forest, and then I went through the usual research for Pottery and built a granary then settlers. Again I think I should have built a settler first.

I don't think it made much difference as I still managed 9 cities with lots of manipulation by 1000BC.

After trading with Persia find that we have no iron. I assumed we'd have horses not knowing that you don't need them for War Elephants, one day I'll pay attention to this kind of stuff before I play the game.

Luckily for me my ignorance brought me to action when I traded for the wheel and saw no horses either. Now I thought about who was near and what that meant if they had iron. After finding iron under a Persian city, everything was switched to archers.

At around 800BC 15 archers and 10 warriors were ready to attack. Right then (and this happened in the last GOTM I played) Persia built the Lighthouse in Susa right next to my archer stack.

A few Immortals were seen but they were easy meat to the archer stacks. An advance force of archers arrived at arbela, with just enough left to take the city, upgrade some warriors and effectively end Persia as a fighting force.

Persia hit their Golden age when one of their Immortals killed a red-lined warrior in the open, and next turn that boost apparantly allowed them to build Pyramids in Persepolis, just as I was at its door about to take it. I guess if I'd taken it before they completed I would never have known. That gave me a well needed boost.

After one period of peace for a rest, Persia was down to four cities around 30BC. Then Chandragupta GL appeared and a forbidden palace was built in Persepolis. I had the FP half built next to the palace but decided I didn't even want to wait for that and use any exploits. There was no chance of flips from Persia as I'd built lots of temples. That FP pre-build eventually turned into Hanging Gardens, which is the first ancient age wonder I've hand built since I can remember, I guess I play too much diety so never get near building them.

It actually took until 280AD to destroy Persia, but lots more happened in the interim out of scope of this thread.

Smackster

 

[Txurce]

Originally posted by Abegweit
Personally, I think that War Elephants suck. Worse than useless. As soon as you learn chivalry, you can never build another horseman. I am going to try and avoid making any at all, going straight for cavs.

Why is a UU with the same stats as knights worse than useless? And even if you don't think much of them, why avoid building them and go straight for cavalry, as opposed to upgrading them? You'd be ahead of the game by the time you researched military tradition.

 

[Tone]

Well I'm *very* envious of those that managed to get iron without having to take is from X-man!

I was expecting a larger starting landmass than we had in the last GOTM so decided to build granaries in both first and second cities. How wrong could I be?!! I did enjoy the struggle of taking on the Persians without iron but I'm afraid my game score won't compare with those that had the good fortune of fighting immortals with swords instead of archers.

Before the end of the AA I had two wars with the Persians. The first was without any immortals appearing. They attacked in 1150BC and took one town which I regained at some cost as it was on hills and sued for peace involving tech trade.

I started the second war (310BC) hoping to steal their iron and wool. I managed to get two towns (including the wool) but a GA fuelled opponent with immortals is no easy fight. With war weariness kicking in and the Persians having built the great wall as well as the Pyramids, I made peace (90BC). It was at this time that I made contact with another civ and so trading techs became a little cheaper. The galley sunk after making contact but a second galley made contact with another civ. This made trading easier and I decide to research at full pace to get longbows for the decisive push on Persian land.

 

[Tone]

I know that it's beyond the scope of this thread but I meant to add that I found the elephants very useful. Waiting for cavalry would have taken too long. If you have access to horses and iron this unit won't allow you to disconnect the iron and then build a cheaper unit to upgrade at a later date but when you don't have the resources it's very handy!

 

[Abegweit]

Originally posted by Txurce


Why is a UU with the same stats as knights worse than useless? And even if you don't think much of them, why avoid building them and go straight for cavalry, as opposed to upgrading them? You'd be ahead of the game by the time you researched military tradition.

Well, actually I meant that it is worse than the unit it replaces. With Knights, you can unhook the Iron and build a 30-shield unit to upgrade instead of a 70-shield one. You can't do this with WEs.

That's why I want to avoid building WEs. So I can re-build a second or third cav army. All this hinges, of course, on having a source of saltpetre. If ainwood has been stingy with that too, I will certainly be building lots of them.

 

[Boyd]

Just thought I would add an extra nod of appreciation to Ainwood et al. for the initial game map... having Xerses as Mohammed and the Khasmir (aka the Mutton Valley) represented was a nice touch reflecting India's current and historical challenges.

Loads of fun and tense moments, too, as waves of Immortals launched themselves against my archers and bronze-tipped spears! Knowing that Mohammed had the iron meant that I was constantly on edge.

Thanks Ainwood et al.

 

[HighDesert]

1.29F Open

Start. The cow was visible in the fog, but having a look about from the mountain is too much temptation, so worker has a look...alas, nothing. Settler SE...yep, a cow. Delhi founded in the forest and worker needs a few turns to get back to the cow to get it irrigated. After Delhi expanded I saw the 2nd cow and thought, UGH, I missed the Holy Grail of Civdom, the 4-turn Warrior/Settler Pump. Thinking it through, however, I realized we had two 6-turn settler+ factories...equivalent 3-turn Pump! Didn't play it quite that way, but I felt better.

Build Sequence. Delhi went Warrior-Warrior-Settler-Warrior-Granary-Barracks and then operated as a 6-turn Warrior-Archer-Settler factory from 2310BC. Bombay built Warrior-Worker then operated as a no-Granary 10-turn Settler factory. I usually emphasize Workers, but went for Settlers and Military this time.

At 3000BC Pliny says we are among the largest of civs (with 2 whole towns to our credit) and Persia still has but one town. At this point the proximity of Persia is now evident and I'm thinking we're stuck at the end of a peninsula with Persia between us and the rest of the world...a thought which as you all know would slowly change to a stomach turning realization that we were stuck on an island with the Immortal and that THE ENTIRE GAME would be decided by how we handled Persia. Hmmm...about this ainwood guy...

Moderator Action: Spoiler pic ermoved.

Research. Pottery at max. Mysticism at max...was thinking the Monarchy path at that point. After the Us and Persia Island situation became evident went to Writing at max, MapMaking at max. Col at max...going for Republic. Then Literature...need Libraries...tech pace is SLOOOOOW. Got Republic in 350BC.

Dealing with Persia. I haven't had a run-in with Persia as yet, but I have seen numerous references on these pages regarding the dislike for the Persians as rivals. I have read about the Immortal and looking it up in the Pedia I was shocked to see a Medieval Swordsman available in Early AA. I decided I needed to find some Iron ASAP. And I decided to try to take them out early...especially since it was apparent I'd have a bunch of Archers which I usually never build.

My Persia strategy, which I'd like to think was devilishly clever in its planning, but actually evolved depending upon perceived circumstances, was:

1. Mine the northern barbs for Elites.
2. "Acquire" Persia's Iron.
3. Mine Persia for Techs, Great Leaders and towns.
4. Remove Persia from the list of rivals.

Mining the Barbarians. I purposely did not settle in the north in order to provide enticing space for Barb Camps and to use the Barbs for Elite farming. Usually the AI beats you to the barbs, but this game was very different. The one Persian Warrior who beat me to the barbs...as well showed me the way to them...was immediately trounced, leaving the little darlings to me! Here's an Archer about to become Elite at 1990BC:

The First Persian War Persia was smitten with the value of its Techs and I couldn't get it to trade me Iron. In 1700BC I was satified with the Power Lead and renegotiated Peace giving Mysticism and gaining Iron Working. The bad news, and ainwood's little joke, became evident in about 5 seconds RT.

Not knowing what was to be encountered in the rest of the world, therefore wanting to keep reputation intact, and, besides, those Warriors and Archers take a LOOONg time to get there (roads were sparse at that point), I waited 20 turns before declaring war on Persia.

Upon declaring, I moved onto the hill by his Iron town. IBT an Immortal attcked my Elite Warrior and redlined him...BUT LOST. Persia did not have a road into Irontown and that was to be Persia's only Immortal. No Golden Age for Mohammed, no problem for me! Lost a few Archers getting past the dug in Spears and needed the Warriors to polish off some defenders. Took the Irontown and destroyed his town in the jungle. I got to Persia just in time to remove Immortals as a threat.

Gave Peace in 1150BC for all his Tech and gold PLUS the town of Tarsus on the southern shore, I expected him to take it back as it was undefended forever it seemed. Tarsus however survived and was productive to the end of the game.


The world at 1000BC:

QSC Stats:
16 Towns (2 former Persian)
24 Population
1 Settler
7 Worker + 2 Persian Slaves
17 Warriors left
8 Archers left
1 Galley
230 Score vs Persia 194
147 Gold
1 Granary
1 Barracks
All 2nd Tier Tech but Math plus Code of Laws and MapMaking

I did not worry about RCP except cursily as Monarch level seems to be somewhat corruption friendly.

The Second Persian War. Waited 20 turns during which I, as the now Iron Stud of the Known Universe, built/upgraded MY Sword Army. While involved as always, the conquest of Persia was anticlimactic and never in doubt. We destroyed the Fledgling Persians in 490BC. Didn't get any GLs which could have been a big help as all the Wonders went to other places. I felt the game was won at this point...it remained to decide upon a victory condition.

My First Palace Jump. In 110BC, having built up the population of the former Persian capital, Persepolis, and having built a FP in Bombay, I decided to jump the Palace to the middle of Persia. Recalling seeing a fairly new thread on the subject, I quick went to the Forum and found the ainwood thread with restrictions. All seemed in order, although I confess to being completely FOR a ban on ALL Palace jumps. I have never done this before and was a bit edgy about abandoning a perfectly good capital... Clicked the Abandon command, checked Persepolis to see that little star...no star. Uh-oh...now what. Frantically rooting around my civ I spot the star on Kolapur!!!! HUH??? I then recalled that the town with the largest NATIVE population gets the capital, I think. UGH!!! Yet another learning experience. I was eventually able to get the capital to Persepolis.

Also on or about 110BC, I acquired the last required AA tech and entered the Middle Ages. I was very pleased with the game at this point, but I have to admit that Lady Luck seemed to be on my side this time.

 

[dojoboy]

HighDesert, your first pic violates the spoiler rules for this thread (list of civs). You probably should remove it ASAP.

 

[Txurce]

email10, I've never played a 20k game, but can't imagine a better start. I mean literally - could you possibly have more wonders in one city?

High Desert, that's an excellent demonstration of how early one can be successfully aggressive. Had you made any other contacts by 110 BC?

 

[HighDesert]

@dojoboy
OOPS!! Apologies to all. Looks like ainwood beat me to removing it. BTW, the list of rivals is available by a well known, non-exploit, AFAIK, means which even I as a newbie am familiar with.

Reading over the first post I see no minimaps, also. While I included minmaps, they show absolutely nothing but the home continent so I'll leave them unless someone objects.

@Txurce
Thank you. ainwood forced me into a weak point of my game, the Early Conquest. I usually develop fully before venturing forth. This game has given me another weapon in my arsenal!

At 110BC I had contact with Civ #1 and Civ #2.

 

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by HighDesert
@dojoboy
OOPS!! Apologies to all. Looks like ainwood beat me to removing it. BTW, the list of rivals is available by a well known, non-exploit, AFAIK, means which even I as a newbie am familiar with.

Yea, true. But, I believe there are some players who conciously don't look for the information. That pop up is hard to ignore though. I wonder if it could be disabled in the GOTM files?

I'm not sure why ainwood and staff don't want mini maps included, unless its specific to suicide galleys. I know no one would include a mini map that showed other land forms before allowed.

 

[ainwood]

Its for the suicide galleys, or for any other info that some players may not have seen. I'm not going to bother editing out the minimaps that only show the home continent coastline.

 

[Tech Step]

Originally posted by dojoboy


How? Did they find you or did you find them?

I contacted them (was very lucky with my galleys)

 

[Tech Step]

Originally posted by Megalou
Drazek, Sabre, it will be interesting to see if your early wars with Persia pay off.

Tech Step, I really don't see why you should say anything about scientific civs. Since way back, the civ specific traits have been open to change from the creators of the game. In theory, there could be no scientific civs at all, so any mention of this is a kind of spoiler. I don't want to assume the role of moderator, but I have a feeling this should be pointed out, OK?

Megalou. I don't think it is a spoiler. I reached the middle ages on the same turn as the other Civ and have not said which one it was or what technology that they got. The spolierr rules did not say that you could not talk about the middle ages.

Seeing as everyone had to have gotten to the middle ages then they would of found this out by them selves (assuming that they had met a couple of civs aswell).

Ainwood: If this is concidered a spolier can you please in future state as the spolier rules that _no discussion of the middle ages is allowed_ in addition to saying that each player must be at the end of the ancient era.


ps: great map Ainwood. I had a lot of fun playing this one.

 

[Txurce]

Tech Step, the rule has always been that you limit discussion to the Age at hand, not the one that follows. This was probably stated more explicitly in prior games, but the intent remains the same. Minor exceptions can be made for ongoing wars that spill over slightly into the next era, but that doesn't apply in this case.