GOTM 42 First Spoiler

[kcd_swede]

Contender save.

A quick tip on fogbusting.

Btw, that gold that some people popped would be really great to have...I wish there were more random elements like that...

Nice write-up! After reading through your thread, it occurs to me that there were better uses of my scout than feeding lions.

More random elements? Yes, I suppose if my scout popped BW from a hut I could have whipped enough chariots to deal with barbs. Good point!

 

[LowtherCastle]

Dead......

 

[Yamps]

Feeding the scout to the lions? Well, that must mean that you're not using the superior scout capabilities:

• move only on flat terrain (not a real problem on this map )
• make 1 movement point only
• if you see a barb, return to the previous position

Haven't you checked the Attacko's Guide to Power Scouting yet?!

 

[Sleepless]

Like some others I nearly had a very quick game. Tech path went AH - Wheel hooked up horses just in time for the barb invasion. I had a barb warrior on my horses before I had built any chariots. 50% for my 1 warrior in Moscow to defeat it. Shall I go for it and leave Moscow undefended if I lose. Gambled and lost. Luckily (thankfully they pillaged the horse/road) I had enough time to build another warrior before the barbs got to an undefended Moscow. I had managed to fogbust the NW quite well so was only facing them from the South and East. Relying on forest/hills my overall losses were 1 chariot and 4 warriors (total I built 11 warriors). Killed 51 warriors. Shame you can't get woody III units in vanilla. So for a long while I was just trying to spread my fogbusters out and my second city wasn't built until 1090BC quickly followed by a third in 910BC for the phants and much needed happies. I did manage to build the Mids in 130BC in Moscow. Didn't realise you only got +2 happy in vanilla with rep but stuck with rep for most of the game anyway.

Continuing with the tech path. Writing - Myst - BW - Fish - Pot - Mas - Poly (was going for the Oracle but finished whilst I was still going for Poly) - Priest - Alpha (25BC) (would have gone Monarchy if I hadn't finished the Mids) - Agr - IW (great no metals) - Maths - Constr.

So a poor start with so long spent trying to fend of the barbs at least I am still alive though.

 

[Thorrez]

Erkon: Do I look russian to you! How can you curse the map of a fellow swede!

The start
Moves the scout W and saw the coast, decided that I would leave the starting ground and settle on the coast (master plan was TGLig). Moscow settled and starts with a worker and teching AH. Ok, the horse are in the starting area, I can live with that, let quickly get some fogbusting warriors and a settler built. Only problem was, at this point the barbs started to attack, I had to postpone the settler and build warriors only for pure survival.

The curse
There is a barb city EEN of the horses! On a hill! Random? Yeah right

Going on
Well, had to get those horses, but as the harm was already done I settled by 2nd city NW first to get a GS and forg bust that area (also I figured I would need a lot more troops before an attempted to settle would be worth it, and trying to think a little long term). Finally settled ESS of the horse and was able to attack the hill. Of course it had the defender from hell (a FS archer) so I was down was one archer attack at ~60% away from not taking the cities with all built chariots and all (no longer) city defending archers used up.

After this it is all good, of course except for the fact that:
*I was not able to have higher research than about 20-30% with full green area fogbusting
*I lost TGLig with 6 turns

The good
Archer on hills are very effective. I had one on the sheep hill next to the horses the took care of all bars from the city before I attacked it. After this I moved him to the tundra hill SW of the staring area and he fought off 2 axes and 1 sword (with a bunch of warriors and archer as well of course) before he died.

 

[Ronald]

That was the quickest loss I ever had.
After building a worker I was building warrior, warrior and was almost finished with a chariot when 7 barb warriors showed up. My brave 2 defeated 5 of them, but no 6 was too many.

 

[nokem]

nokem lives

Settled on the sheep. I wanted to be on a hill and I wanted the river to connect resources. Coastal was a bonus.
Built worker, warrior, warrior, chariot++
Teched AH, Wheel, BW
The first 100 turns were frantic and intense but eventually I managed to push back the barbarian horde. I was lucky that a black city was founded on the eastern side of the landmass. It seems as though even barb cities act as fogbusters.

At 500AD:
7 cities
2 GS (academy in the capital + one settled)
49 sustainable beakers/turn (at 20% science)
37 turns from Civil Service(!)
No wonders. I didn't even try.

I'm running some kind of a hybrid economy but I must be a country mile behind the AIs. I hate conquest / dom wins without vassal states so diplo / space are my only options.

Hmm.
Pull off a miracle space win from a mile back with virtually no production cities?
Win over the aggressive AI and peacefully score a diplo win with no techs to gift?
nokem's lifetime record at Emperor level: 1 game played, 1 win (by culture).
I'll be honest: it doesn't look good.
But....
nokem lives

Spoiler :

 

[Yamps]

nokem lives

It seems as though even barb cities act as fogbusters.

Yes they do, as you can see from the DanF5771's posts in the thread I linked above. No barb unit will spawn 2 tiles away from any existing unit, including existing barb units. There's also that area offensive thing that is more likely to stop when barb cities are present.

 

[damnrunner]

A test game indicated that if alone with raging barbs warriors alone will not do.

Chariots are useful but the best is having a hilltop archer which will pretty much live forever are barbarian hordes sacrifice themselves.

It was touch and go in the beginning but once I got two Chariots (to defend my improvements) I was able to put out some archers and do some real fog busting.

On the bright side I got the Oracle and used it to get CoL and Confu.

The happiness cap has been a killer and I have been very slow in developing cottages. Also no gold popping and not Confu spread abroad. I neglected linking up the elephants right away and instead did a forest chop/mine. This was the wrong move as I had to keep on moving the worker off the hill and then back again which wasted a turn.

I learned that a sentry promoted chariot is a great fog buster - and when placed on a ship can contact civs that are too far away to see otherwise. Not that it helped much.

 

[Erkon]

..I learned that a sentry promoted chariot is a great fog buster - and when placed on a ship can contact civs that are too far away to see otherwise. Not that it helped much.

Clever! I've never thought of that! One extra sea tile before Optics This will certainly qualify as candidate for Trick-of-the-Month^TM award.

 

[Yamps]

Actually, that trick doesn't work according to this post by DanF5771: trade routes

Haven't tried putting the chariot in a galley myself 'cause it wasn't needed anyway. Good old Vanilla culture mechanism.

 

[ZPV]

Actually, that trick doesn't work according to this post by DanF5771: trade routes

It does work, if the galley is in a culturally-owned ocean tile.

 

[Yamps]

Ah, that's sth different then I guess. Although I don't quite understand why would a sentry chariot in a coastal galley see as far as the chariot on land while the one in ocean can see further than the galley can... Time for some WB fun!

 

[damnrunner]

It did work for me and I was not in my cultural borders.

I could see a border outline with a coastal ship but could not make contact. Could also see just as far with a sentry chariot on land. Hence the idea to put the chariot on the boat.

I did not get trade routes of course but I could do some tech trading. Of course being way far behind this was only marginally helpful.

 

[Yamps]

^Yeah, I've played around in WB a bit and it seems contrary to that post I've quoted. Maybe some BtS and Vanilla difference with sentry, or I simply missed sth there...

Btw, you can get pre-Astro trade routes and invasions too for that matter in Vanilla through rival's ocean tiles if you get culture connection.

 

[damnrunner]

Damn - I should have built a city over there then.

 

[srad]

Clever! I've never thought of that! One extra sea tile before Optics This will certainly qualify as candidate for Trick-of-the-Month^TM award.

I saw the border of Liz but wasn't able to contact her. Nice trick!

 

[greatbeyond]

Barbs, Barbs, Barbs, Barbs,,Barbs, Barbs, Barbs, Barbs.... sung to the theme from 2 1/2 men.

Contender Save, oh if only I'd played Adventurer...

I don't have all the stats and details because I'm still playing and don't want to open an old save until I'm done.

Fantastic, Stupendous, Terrific, ... all describe the effort the Barbs took trying to wipe the map with me.

Lucky for them I watched some film of their past games, got a copy of their playbook, and snuck into some of their secret scrimmages to watch.

My reasoning (if it could be called that) was that Archers don't need any resources. If there were no Horses nearby then Chariots are out, same with Bronze, and Iron for Axes, Spears, and Swords.
Soooo, it was Archery first, then BW (no Copper anywhere of course... muttered curses to game designer) then AH. Of course, by the time I discovered the Horses were in my cities 2nd ring, the Barb party was in full force with Warriors and Archers coming in droves. Thus sending a Worker and a couple of defenders to their death was not an option for quite some time.

I tested and realized the best city placement was on a Plains Hill, even if I had to travel 2 or 3 turns to settle. So, Scout went SW to the hill, nothing better looking than the start. Settler went to the Sheep hill. No settling there because in Vanilla Civ4 you don't get any bonus. Then the Scout went south to check, no Plains hill. Settler moves 2N1E to the Grassland hill and finds a few more bonuses. It is clear the designer has read my mind and has eliminated all Plains hills, so I settle in place.

I start with a Warrior and sacrifice growth to get him out in ~6T for fog busting. Then an Archer, and another Archer. At this point the Barbs start coming in fast and furious. There is no opportunity to build a Settler or Worker. If I stop building Archers, the existing defenders are going to get overwhelmed and no fog busting will get done. I would bet that my Barb count is also very high. Despite getting Archers out to the SE, E, N, and NE to fog bust. Most seem to come from the SE and West even though I had units there too. It seems the Barbs were led to believe that I had the promised land and they would be welcomed with open arms.

Luck.... or lack thereof

Even though I am careful to have my units always defending on the best defensive terrain, a Warrior (Delilah) defeats my Archer (Sampson) who is on a forested tile. Combat odds were over 99%. Later a regular Barb Archer defeats my fogbusting Archer (10/17)who has been posted on a wooded hill just east of the western river and is getting the 75% terrain bonus, the 25% fortify bonus, and the 20% strength bonus. It says the odds were 99.8%. The Barb Archer kills my Archer and it's strength is still 2.3... lot's of bad words were said!!!
The only thing I can offer that was worse occurred in a previous practice game. When is 100% not 100%...
See the screenshot below.

No Iron, no Copper, no Luxury resources. Are we playing Deity? The early Gold popping for two of our contestants is a HUGE advantage. So much for removing random events so they won't influence the game. As I believe everyone else so far has said, the happy cap and money shortage (even if you did have some cottages early) were significant handicaps.
Iron finally popped on an already mined hill, in 1802AD!

As it stood at 500AD I had 4 or 5 good cities (had to watch that budget) and was preparing to take the only barb city in the West, I am behind in Techs and have seen a nearby civ who is an era ahead. I missed on the HG by 1T. I wanted the Colossus so I prioritized MC and had no Copper to hurry it up, thus the Colossus BIADL, as well as the Pyramids and every other early Wonder. Someone actually built SH while fighting off Barbs? Now that is lucky.

I just hope I can have some good luck and pull out a win.

 

[JackOfClubs]

I see that there is already a Final Spoiler thread so I guess I'm a little behind posting this.

Preliminary notes: Testing shows that my usual worker-first strategy is not a good idea since a) the worker tends to get chased around by barbs and b) the barbs will just destroy any unprotected improvements, tying up troops in the open that are better stationed in forests and hills. Also, at Epic speed, the long delay in growth and lost troop production is unsustainable in a raging barb scenario.

So, since my early economy will have to be based on unimproved tiles, there is no point in going for early worker techs. Preliminary techs will thus focus on things that can be produced within cities. I am not sure that I quite have an optimal list but here is what I started with: Bronze Working (for slavery and possible extra hammer on un-mined copper), Fishing (for early commerce from lake tiles), Archery (for early defense).

There was some discussion in the Pre-Game thread about the relative value of archers versus their cost, but this doesn't take promotions into account. A City Garrison archer can easily defeat a barb axe and an archer on a hill with multiple first-strikes can absorb attacks from swarms of barbs without taking damage. So, on the whole, I think they more than make up for their added cost.

4000 BC: Moved the scout SW to the hill. Discovered the Rice in the shadows, but this is not enough to make me settle in place. I want that Ivory for the early happiness (once I can afford to improve it). If there is no copper nearby, I will perhaps settle the second city by the Cows and Rice. Settler moves 2E and settles on the next turn -- discovering another Ivory on grass. Nice! Building warrior, research BW.

Spoiler :

3910 BC: Scout moves around to the NE and discovers that I am near the N edge of the continent. Excellent. My most successful test games were the ones where I could completely prevent barb attacks from one direction or more.

3730 BC: Border pop reveals that I am near the S tundra. (Actually, I kind of knew that from the ice trees in the original screenshot, but I wasn't thinking about it. Looks like this continent is fairly narrow, which will be good for limiting barb attacks. Also, in looks like most of it will be in the temperate zone, limiting jungles which are always a problem in tropical climate games. My scout is exploring the Western peninsula. Looks like I won't have to do too much fog busting. Too early to tell, but I think I may be able to fill in most of the W with 3 cities in addition to the capital. A bit more settling than I like normally, but not unreasonable. No contact with other civs yet. Am I alone on this continent?

3640 BC: Scout attacked by a wolf on open ground but fortunately across a river. Stone discovered to the SW. Buddhism founded in a distant land.

3280 BC: Bronze Working discovered but no nearby Copper. I suspected as much. Well, on to Archery. I won't need Iron Working for jungles any time soon, so I'm not sure if it is worth pursuing in the short term. After Arch an Fish, I will go for AH then decide whether to go for more metal or just beeline Construction for offensive wars. The presence of elephants makes that attractive since a Cat/Phant army can be formidable. Would like at least a few melee units for stack protection, but in a pinch I know I can do without. That is assuming I even have any company other than barbs. Scout is moving around S ice having been blocked by a strategically placed mountain at the N end of the lake. Hmph!

2950 BC: Archery discovered. No human barbs yet but I expect them any moment. Between my scout and second warrior, I have pretty much established that I am on a solo continent. There is a small shadow to the SW that may hide a bridge to another land mass but it doesn't look likely.

2710 BC: Here come the barbs! Fishing discovered and Hinduism FIADL.

2560 BC: Fought off 3 barb attacks (promoting 1 warrior). There are now two barbs outside Moscow and both my units are damaged. This could theoretically be the end of the game. However, I have been alternating building an archer and a barracks. Whipped the rax for 1 pop last turn and the overflow will finish the archer in time to defend the city when the barbs attack. Even if the archer does not survive (unlikely) the two barbs cannot take the city with 3 defenders and they will both have healed by the time the next group arrives. The more likely scenario is that I will have a double promotion on the archer which will guarantee my safety for the expansion phase. My Woodsman II scout is parked on the forest hill between the Cows and Rice to the W. This gives a good distant early warning along with decent fog busting and he can retreat through the trees if anything nasty comes his way. Looking good so far.

2140 BC: The scout is now on the desert hill near the flood plains to the W. The Rice/Cow hill he was on is occupied by a warrior. Most of the NW quadrant is fog busted with a scrap of shadow in by the N mountain and a small chuck on the W peninsula. Moving an archer out there to fog bust and to eventually defend the city that I will place on the plain between the Cow and the Clam. Not sure if that will be my second city since it is rather far from the capital. On the other hand, I want to make contact with other civs and that off shore island seems like the best hope of getting to another continent in the early game. Lots of coastal commerce for that city will offset the high distance, but I am still weighing my options. Should be producing a settler now, but I took him off line to allow the city to grow to 4. Dang barbs keep stepping on my worked tiles and throwing my timing off! In between turns, AH completes and I discover horses in my fat X. Ha! I had forgotten I was even researching it.

1960 BC: First barb archers attack. One goes after my Drill II archer from the NW peninsula a turn before he can clear the last 2 fog squares. I win, but am down to 14 HP. Another goes after a warrior (Combat I, Cover) fortified on a forest hill E of Moscow. I win that one as well at 51 HP. Fog busting is complete in the NW quadrant except for that stinking thumb on the peninsula. Temporarily switch production from settler to warrior so I can explore some tiles to the NE that I just realized my scout never got to (there was a bear roaming around earlier). Probably inconsequential, but there might be some hidden resources up there. Need to know that before I finish the settler.

1630 BC: No copper in the NE. Didn't really expect to find any but I had to check. However, there is a barb city on the NE coast nicely placed between the cows, rice and fish. Sending my exploring warrior to check it out. That will save me the trouble of building a settler for that region, but I will have to make some attack troops to take it so I probably won't be going there soon. My settler will probably go W of the starting position to take the rice/cows and establish a coastal presence. My inclination is to settle on the hill for defense and to take the 2nd cow to the S, but I hate to waste the production of the second hill. Still 3 food resources will make an excellent GP farm and there is plenty of forest for production (not to mention slavery) so I will probably go for the hill. Speaking of whipping, I whip the settler to shave 8 turns of production and reallocate the tiles so that an archer will produce on the following turn. A blue circle appears on the SW hill so that confirms my choice of city placement. Warrior is already in place to defend the city and the settler will move through safe territory so I don't need an escort which will speed things up.

1480 BC: St. Petersburg founded. About a thousand years later than usual, but under the circumstances not too shabby. As a side benefit, the thumb is illuminated as is the stone peninsula to the SW. I had thought I would have to wait for a border pop, but I forgot that visibility is greater across water. Nice. The NW quadrant is now completely barb-free and I am making progress in the NE. My exploring warrior confirms that the barb city (Hsung-Nu) is N of the cows with lots of flood plains and fish and rice in its (my) eventual fat cross. Defended by 3 barb archers, which is typical. It might be about time to start thinking about that worker so I can start making some chariots.

1330 BC: Grr. My Combat II warrior was attacked in the forest by an un-promoted barb and lost! My first military defeat. A minor setback, but still... Next turn I lose another warrior because he went in a different direction than his path said he was going. I wanted him to go SE and then S and he went S-SE. Right into the path of an archer and warrior pair. Ironically, he killed the archer but (being wounded) lost to the warrior. Grr.

715 BC: The axeman cometh. Actually I spotted him a few turns earlier on the SW ice peninsula, but I had to retreat my archer so he could heal in safety. But now the barb axe is approaching my territory. Iron working still about 19 turns away. Pity, I was on the verge of defogging the SW quadrant, but a couple of bad fights made me retreat. A few turns later, the axe strikes at St. Petersburg. My CG II archer takes him down but drops to 40 HP.

445 BC: First chariot is online. Sending him down to battle the lurking axe on the SW ice peninsula, which is beginning to look like a bridge after all. Irritating that it has taken this long to be able to explore down there.

220 BC: Not 1 barb axe in the SW but 2. Also an archer which narrowly kills my chariot. Units are on the verge of striking. I have defogged the entire continent except for that SW bridge but now I need to ramp up the settlements. It may be wise to allow some barbs in the SE while I concentrate my troops on taking out the barb city to the NE. That would reduce expenses for fog busting troops. Horses, pigs and ivory have been connected. Running a road to St. Pete's so that they can raise their happy cap with the ivory. Should probably put a settler on the ice hill I thought was the end of the peninsula. That will allow me to defend the access to my continent and simultaneously get some extra commerce from the crabs and other sea tiles. Also probably another city N of Moscow to get the 2 seafood and cows and a bit more commerce. Unfortunately there are no happiness resources around so I will have to research Monarchy for HR as soon as I fix my financial situation.

40 BC: Novgorod founded in the NW grassland 1E of the desert hill and all the floodplains. This wastes the fish to the N and overlaps St. Pete's cows but it is a better long term prospect than all that water. I will eventually found a city on the glove peninsula, so I don't need to worry too much about coastal access in this region. Building chariots for the attack on Hsung-Nu. Still only 3 archers in that city and one of them dies attacking my scouting warrior across the river. Another attacks and wins, promoting to CG but ultimately the city is weaker. I should be able to take it out with 4 chariots plus an archer or two for clean-up and defense. Moving troops around for better fog busting efficiency allows me to bring 2 units back inside my borders (thus saving the away costs). Reshuffling production allows me to run 20% science at break-even and connecting St. Pete's and Novgorod allows a positive balance due to trade routes. The barb axes in the SW have been avoiding my archer on the hill in the center of the isthmus. A scouting work boat reveals no copper or happy resources in that area either. A few turns ago, I gave up on Iron Working and went for Writing instead. I need to improve my economy/science more than I need to worry about axmen and I should be OK with fortified archers and chariots.

200 AD: Hsung-Nu is mine! The barbs never built another troop but they did whip a wall, costing me all of my chariots. But my defending archer killed the highly weakened defender (even attacking across the river) and killed the other one the next turn (he didn't promote, but my archer went to Drill II). They also helpfully built a worker rather who pastured the cows and built a mine and two farms. Well, the loss of all those chariots saved me a bit of cash and, added to the loot from the town, I am able to move up to 100% science at a deficit. Writing should come in 6 turns. This whole game is playing in slo-mo. Still haven't contacted another civ and I have confirmed that the SW area comes to an end. It might be navigable with an actual Galley rather than a work boat but I will probably need to extend my culture into the ocean to make that happen. Maybe a barb will build me a city over there.

275 AD: Writing discovered. All cities change production to build libraries. Science slider dropped to 20% with a slight surplus of 1-2 gp/turn.

500 AD: Library in Moscow due next turn. Hsung-Nu (which has pretty good production) due in 3. Moving workers to chop the libraries in St. Pete and Novgorod. Defense is low, but I haven't had a barb attack since the BC era. Economy sucks but is recovering. Will probably head for a cultural victory. This will allow me to ignore optics/astro (which is vastly out of reach at current research rate) and allow other civs to come to me.

Stats: killed 43 warriors, 17 archers, 2 axes and a handful of animals. Lost 6 chariots (4 capturing Hsung-Nu, 2 exploring the SW sub-continent which is still dark), 3 warriors, 0 archers. I feel vindicated in my choice to research Archery, though I probably should have paid more attention to the economy after founding St. Pete.

 

[cabert]

GOTM 42 First Spoiler

Posting Restrictions

• Please do not disclose information gained post 500 AD.

hum well, not really going to happen

• Please do not name civilizations that requires caravels to contact.
• Please do not reveal territory that requires caravels to reach.

Ahh, a bit of a challenge, no?

how should I know?

How did you manage the barbs?

I gave them my only city, then they let me have peace

How did you adopt to the land?

the land didn't adopt me.
And I didn't have any time to adapt to anything.

Any key decisions?

I settled 1 W. Which append to be 1 tile too far from the horses...