GOTM 52 - first spoiler

[k-a-bob]

If someone is annoyed with you, you probably already made a mistake unless this someone is weak or far away.

Well, it might have been that I was declaring war left and right against my neighbors, and there weren't any roads to trade luxes yet.

 

[lroumen]

I didn't know you could decline cities that are flipping.

I was trying to keep my people happy so I built Temples and for research I built Libraries so that's probably not the path to take in cities near enemies and is only reserved for core cities? I still like some culture to expand my borders so I can work the entire cross rather than just a cube.

 

[Paul#42]

Well, it might have been that I was declaring war left and right against my neighbors, and there weren't any roads to trade luxes yet.

That's what I mean: If you already had war with a rival, I won't expect him to become your friend again - but I would expect him to be weak or far away otherwise you had better killed him...

And trading luxuries in a crowded world is an attitude-risk on its own - always trade for gpt or other luxes so it's no rep hit if the trade network is broken...

That's why I refered to trading techs for cash.

 

[Paul#42]

I didn't know you could decline cities that are flipping.

You can deny any flip (only from other civs to you ), you are asked when it happens.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

another way to handle that is to declare war on one of them when the city flips and drag the other into it - then they are fighting, and you just keep building culture. or bring greece or babylon into it.

I'm a little surprised that china and spain got near enough to you to build cities, though. Greece and Carthage must have had a heck of a war!

In my game, I made the mistake of not giving in to a demand by babylon, and soon had Spain and Carthage attacking me - I built a bunch of catapults and that helped a lot - those are inexpensive and a damaged archer/spear is either an easy target for your swords/archers, or will withdraw.

I also fortified spears in the mountains - the AI often won't attack them - they do attack unfortified spears. They go around to the more open territory, where they are more vulnerable.

One nice thing about them walking through your culture is that they tend to kill all the barbs for you, which is quite helpful. But yeah - it's always a little nerve-wracking to see a stack of 4 warriors and a spear walk through your boundaries. When I see that, I make sure every city has a garrison (cause an open city is as irresistable as playboy for a teenager) and just keep going.

The reason why they walk through you like that on the upper levels is that they have so many extra units - at regent, you and the AI are even. At Deity, they start with more, they build their 2nd city faster with the free settler, and where each archer costs you 20 SP, it costs them 12, so even the cities they throw behind you that are totally corrupt can have a strong defense in 12 turns, with an extra spear or an extra archer...

 

[lroumen]

You can deny any flip (only from other civs to you ), you are asked when it happens.

Ah, I reloaded a save to check and I guess that I usually just continue on without giving it a second thought, lol. I never really payed attention to that.

I still have to get used to this Deity level thing, but at least I'm progressing further than before. Now I'm more circular rather than stretched so I can be everywhere in no time.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

another way to handle that is to declare war on one of them when the city flips and drag the other into it - then they are fighting, and you just keep building culture. or bring greece or babylon into it.

I'm a little surprised that china and spain got near enough to you to build cities, though. Greece and Carthage must have had a heck of a war!

In my game, I made the mistake of not giving in to a demand by babylon, and soon had Spain and Carthage attacking me - I built a bunch of catapults and that helped a lot - those are inexpensive and a damaged archer/spear is either an easy target for your swords/archers, or will withdraw.

I also fortified spears in the mountains - the AI often won't attack them - they do attack unfortified spears. They go around to the more open territory, where they are more vulnerable.

One nice thing about them walking through your culture is that they tend to kill all the barbs for you, which is quite helpful. But yeah - it's always a little nerve-wracking to see a stack of 4 warriors and a spear walk through your boundaries. When I see that, I make sure every city has a garrison (cause an open city is as irresistable as playboy for a teenager) and just keep going.

The reason why they walk through you like that on the upper levels is that they have so many extra units - at regent, you and the AI are even. At Deity, they start with more, they build their 2nd city faster with the free settler, and where each archer costs you 20 SP, it costs them 12, so even the cities they throw behind you that are totally corrupt can have a strong defense in 12 turns, with an extra spear or an extra archer...

The other reasons why cats are useful are A) they upgrade throughout the ages and B) they don't die when they miss, so if you are careful, you never lose them and your store of them can always grow.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Let's just say, 2 warriors was not enough

 

[tR1cKy]

Predator, Vanilla. Goal is the globe (what else, Pinky?)

Worker NW spots the cow; settler NW, then Sogut is founded in 3950BC; the cow is roaded and irrigated, then the BG is roaded and mined; the initial build sequence is warrior -> warrior -> settler -> warrior -> worker; after another settler a granary is built, then the city will produce all the settlers for expansion, until much later.

Research is set on Pottery at max; soon explorers meet Carthage (3450BC) and Greece (3250) - tough! Pottery is completed and traded for Warrior Code; research is virtually stopped at this point. Being weaker, we buy techs for gpt to discourage the AS from attacking too early. Alphabet is bought from Carthage, then around 2400BC we meet the Chinese and trade for the remaining contacts. Writing, Iron Working and Wheel are learned, and min run on Literature is started. The iron source is left unconnected.

Cities are built at RCP 3.5 from Sogut. Iznik (3200BC) and Uskudar (2630BC) are founded; 2 more workers are produced; Uskudar starts tossing workers every 5 turns until a workforce of 6 is reached; Iznik builds barracks, then is set to train warriors; a pair of them are sent to prevent barb camps (horse barbs at deity are no fun), the others are kept for a later mass-upgrade;

What follows is a rush to fill the gaps and claim resources before the AS do it first; Izmit (1870BC) is founded on the horse fields east, beating a carthaginian settler; Aydin (1725BC) claims furs; Antalya (1550BC) closes the gap SE. In 1425BC a frantic trade round ends up with the complete knowledge of the continent, with a negligible final cost. In the same turn Bursa is founded, too late for an inner ring city, but strategic considerations came first. The last QSC city, Edrine, is founded in 1275BC;

In the same period, Mysticism is bought for gpt and embassies are put everywhere. In 1200BC Literature is researched. Someone else got it first, but a trade for Philosophy (and nothing else) is carved out anyway. In 1150BC, iron is finally connected and warriors are being upgraded. Those beasts are a damn lot, but the excess money due to zero research is enough to have them all ready 2 turns later;

Time to wage war. The obvious target is Carthage, but they have a lot of money and are likely to buy allies, unless we find a way to separate them from their treasure. It's time to lose our trade rep, and in the most spectacular way. Mathematics and Map Making are bought from Greece for wines and gpt. A loan is asked to Carthage, then war is declared immediately. Research on Poly is ramped up at max.

1050BC: 1st Punic war.

A force of 17 swords, 2 spears and 1 settler, divided in 2 stacks, is sent to 2 different targets, that are both hit successfully in 1000BC. Utica is destroyed, with a settler ready to claim the empty land, and Hippo is captured.

We hit the 1000BC mark with 8 native towns and a ninth one just captured from Carthage.

As planned, Istanbul (975BC) is founded as a replacement for Utica. Both the stacks converge to Carthage with a coordinated advancement that got them to rejoin just outside the enemy capital. In 925BC, Carthage is captured. Oracle and Great Wall are seized.

Casualties were significant and we are forced to sign peace. We extort: the village of Sabratha, Map Making, Horse Riding, a WM and a few money. Luxury 3 (incense) is hooked next turn. In 800BC we complete Poly (monopoly!) and trade it for Construction and a lot of cash. Research is set to Monarchy at max possible, then war erupts again.

750BC: 2nd Punic war.

In 775BC we declare again vs. Carthage. We take over the cities of Leptis Magna (750BC) and Leptis Minor (710BC), then peace is signed again. No techs are gained, but those losers toss in all their money, badly needed. Max research hurts! With Carthage playing OCC in Theveste, in the middle of the jungle, it's time to seek for another target... but the AS decides for us. In 690BC Babylon demands iron, we send them packing and they declare. Well, i could have gifted them the resource, then disconnect one iron, then mass-build some warriors for a later upgrade... too late to rethink. China is signed in vs. Babylon for a backwards tech, a luxury and some gpt.

At this point, the only available target is Greece. Two stacks of swords are amassed again, this time on the western front.

610BC: 1st Hellenic war.

Troops move to Sparta and Athens - but those pukes had readied a nasty surprise: in the interturn, Sparta (built on a hill) grows to size 7 Hoplite defending at 6, and you see it. Many swords are lost, but Sparta falls anyway in 590BC. In 570BC it's Athens turn. Size 6 on grass, but with a bigger defense force. Both cities are destroyed, even at size 1 they would require 6 units each to be safe. In their places, the cities of New Athens (570BC) and Konya (530BC) are founded. The 4th luxury (silks) is also secured. Once again, casualties are too high to prosecute the war and peace is signed as soon as possible, in 510BC.

With peace dealings we extort Currency and enter into the Middle Ages. The free tech is Monotheism, as for Greece and Babylon. Despite many elite wins, not a single leader has emerged so far.

-------------------

We're 1 turn away from researching Monarchy. Republic is widely known and it can be bought for Monotheism, but i'll probably revolt to Monarchy and prosecute this strategy of short wars, extorsions, and brief peace periods in which i'll be probably fighting someone else. All the AS are in Republic now and i intent to plague them with war weariness as much as i can.

Here's a shot in 510BC, at the dawn of the Medievals:

 

[civ_steve]

PTW 1.27

I'm a bit jealous! I did read the game discussion thread, but several days before I actually played, and I forgot about the cow discussion. So I moved my Worker onto the nearby Grapes, saw a 3rd one, said +5 food, that's good for me, moved 1 NE to found Sogut, and missed the Cows and Wheat! Oh well.

Saw there were no Expansionistic civs, so Pottery at Max. Built 2 Warriors for Exploration, then pre-build Barracks for Granary. Man, Greece and Carthage were close! Still, I built Granary (with a chop assistance) and it was time to build a bunch of 5 turn Settlers. I grabbed a space between the Cows and Wheat (distance 2) and played for the Incense on the coastal/hills to the East (distance 7) because Carthage was already settling in the area. After that, I focused on a distance 5.x Ring (BTW, one Carthage city and 1 Greek city are at distance 5 as well! ) After settling the cities I could found, Sogut went on a Worker spree, which lasted the rest of the AA.

Played very peaceful game, little defense as the AI went after the barbs. Gave in to lots of demands. Pottery was traded for WC and CB (I must go back to see if Alphabet was an option! That would be the best choice by far!!!!) Next was Alphabet with no trade options; all the AI already knew it.

Finally Math at Maximum. Gold was a problem as my Granary was eating into my small treasury. I paused from building Settlers to build a Worker which I traded to Carthage for 24 Gold; that allowed me to stay at my maximum research and I learned Math in 1600 BC. Traded for IW, Writing and Wheel, then for Philosophy, finally for Mysticism. Carthage had Map-Making uniquely, and most knew HBackRiding, but I was otherwise caught up and had some Gold back in my pocket.

Which the AI demanded, of course. I even gave Philosophy to China when he so politely demanded it.

Next was Literature, which I uniquely learned in 1200 BC. A few pre-builds were switched over to Library, and a few pop-rushes occurred. 2 Civs knew Currency, so I picked that up first. 3 Civs knew Poly, so the one that didn't know Currency trade me Poly for Curr and Lit. And with that, I could easily get the rest of the Techs that were known. Only things left were Construction and the 2 Government Techs; I headed after Republic at Max.

This was the status at 1000 BC:

7 Towns with 20 Population (an 8th town, the one founded on the coastal hills with Incense, flipped to Carthage!)
1 Granary
1 Barracks
5 Libraries

10 Warriors
9 Workers

All AA Techs except Construction, Republic (22 turns to go at 90%) and Monarchy

2 Embassies (Greece and Carthage)

241 Gold in Treasury

Picture of my tiny, cramped, hemmed in on all sides empire:

As you can see, I don't have much more space to expand into. China has already done in Spain, and there's a war going on between Greece and Carthage, with most of the other AI siding with Carthage.

Carthage beats me to Republic, but there are no good trade opportunities. In 800 BC I see the time to learn Republic go from 10 turns to 6. Someone else has learned it! Babylon. Carthage gives me the better deal, and I buy it for as much Gold as I can, minimizing on GPT (I figure I will get a free Tech to sell back to Carthage and get my gold back). So for 220ish Gold an 1 gpt I have Republic. China trades me a widely known Construction for a 3-way known Republic and I'm medieval gaining a free Monotheism. 3 other civs know Feudalism, so I have a monopoly.

Since I have Republic and Mono on Greece's Feudalsim (3-way known), I decide to trade Mono first to Carthage to pick up over 800 Gold (the 220 or so I traded him plus 600 or so he'd picked up). Next was Mono and Republic to Greece for Feud, a Luxury and 25 gpt. With Babylon, I got another Luxury and over 200 Gold for the Mono. So I'm up to 4 Luxuries and over 1000 gold in the bank. That sounds like about 16 upgrades to Medieval Infantry. I think Carthage is not long for staying on this continent; which will give me a much needed expansion; at the current size I would not stay competitive for long.

 

[Marc Aurel]

With the magic of google I found this for you:

The Ottoman Turks were descendants of Turkoman nomads who entered Anatolia in the 11C as mercenary soldiers for the Seljuks. At the end of the 13C, Osman I (from whom the name Ottoman is derived) asserted the independence of his small principality in Sogut near Bursa, which adjoined the decadent Byzantine Empire.

Yeah, thanks, you're right. I didn't realise this cause I learned, that Bursa was capital before Constantinople and couldn't imagine there was another before since they were such a small tribe.

But apart from that, the coincidence between -So(g)oot- in Turkish and "Piu Freddo" was that funny, that I couldn't resist to let you participate

 

[Obormot]

Predator.

I settled 1NW to get the cow and both wines. The plains wheat came as a pleasant surprise. Buid order was warrior, worker, settler, settler. Settlers were clearly better then a granary in this case because of the abundance of food bonuses and because of aggressive AI expansion.

in 3600BC the greeks settled Thermopilae, which is their third city just about where i wanted to settle my second city! There is no way they could build a settler so fast even with the 50% discount on predator and they are supposed to get only one free settler on deity. There is definitely something wrong, they either popped a settler from a hut or AI starting units were messed up like in gotm46 where the AI got a settler instead of a worker on emperor.

Anyway i decided to settle agressively and claim the grassland wheat with my second city, i could also share the cow between the two cities. The diplo penalty was insignificant because after trading with Alex he soon became polite and then gracious and the 0.5% flip chance added some extra spice to my game . The 3rd city went near the wines and remaining 4 cities filled reamining RCP4 spots. I only managed to settle 7 cities and the AI filled all the remaining spots.

I researched as fast as i could right from the start. The tech path:

2750BC - Alphabet.
1990BC - Math, trade for 1st & 2nd tiers.
1525BC - Literature, trade to tech parity including Philosophy and CoL.
975BC - Republic, trade to enter MA.

I drew a 6 turn anarchy and then a 3 turn one on the reroll. All scientific civs drew monotheism. I mostly played C3C, so i'm a little confused: is it normal or is it just bad luck? I am playing PTW.

I built libraries in most of my cities after researching Literature, then some cities built barracks and warriors and some more infra like harbours and granaries. The plan now is to upgrade veteran warrios using cash from selling techs and build some more swords normally and then attempt to get some more land from the greeks (and eliminate the culture threat). The main goal is still to reach MT, though given the very small size of our pangaea fighting with knights or MDI might be faster.

QSC stats:
7 towns with 35 population.
7 workers, 1 slave (bought from AI).
1 turn left to Republic and MA.
6 libraries, 3 barracks, 1 granary, 1 harbour.
16 warriors, 6 of them veterans for later upgrade, 1 sword.

My empire at 1000BC:

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I failed in 20 turns due to not reading properly about the game settings and the cow.

When i read some of the spoilers here though, i see one big mistake made by some players, and that is having multiple libraries before 1000BC.

No matter what victory condition you are going for, Libraries are not the way, pointy stick is far better.

 

[Redbad]

All scientific civs drew monotheism. I mostly played C3C, so i'm a little confused: is it normal or is it just bad luck? I am playing PTW.

The science civs in my game drew mono too, though I myself got feud. I'm playing PTW. So I'd say it is bad luck, but a lot of people are getting mono. Regardles if they're playing vanilla or ptw

 

[Redbad]

When i read some of the spoilers here though, i see one big mistake made by some players, and that is having multiple libraries before 1000BC.

But in this game the libs are cheap and you're in control of the research path. And with the libs you will be quite capable of researching MT before any of the AI get it.

 

[ionimplant]

I failed in 20 turns due to not reading properly about the game settings and the cow.

When i read some of the spoilers here though, i see one big mistake made by some players, and that is having multiple libraries before 1000BC.

No matter what victory condition you are going for, Libraries are not the way, pointy stick is far better.

and more importantly many of us are just trying to beat the AI while enjoying the game. maybe there're some non-optimized strategies. but as long as they are fun...

 

[Obormot]

No matter what victory condition you are going for, Libraries are not the way, pointy stick is far better.

0% research on deity is way overrated IMO. Reaching MT well before AI get rifles is only possible with self-research and that will be my goal. Perahps in this game a no research game could work out nicely, especially on predator with even more expensive techs, because on such a small pangaea it might be possible to kill the AI with knights or MDI faster then sipahis, but even this is argueable.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

0% research on deity is way overrated IMO. Reaching MT well before AI get rifles is only possible with self-research and that will be my goal. Perahps in this game a no research game could work out nicely, especially on predator with even more expensive techs, because on such a small pangaea it might be possible to kill the AI with knights or MDI faster then sipahis, but even this is argueable.

With no research you don't have to be behind, you can still be tech leader.
However, i am not talking about a full no research game.
In this game, you are in an extremely confined space with strong enemies around you. If you wait for chivalry to take them on, you will be living in a half sized empire until that time and you will have to face some pretty tough opponents. Due to your small empire, you will not even have a very strong research either.
So you gotta kick some ass and fight for space. If you choose to do something, you better do it good.
Build 4 or 5 towns with nothing but rax. Research Iron Working, stop research, build veteran warriors and upgrade them. Then, keep building nothing but swords or horses. You will get them while they are still building settlers and run over those nieghbours like nothing.
From there, with the space you got, you can go on and build libraries.

 

[Obormot]

With no research you don't have to be behind, you can still be tech leader.

You can have tech parity with AIs. This means that you'll get MT at the same time as top AI will. But AI doesn't make beelines, so this means that you'll get it shortly before AI civs enter IA and get rifles.

In this game, you are in an extremely confined space with strong enemies around you. If you wait for chivalry to take them on, you will be living in a half sized empire until that time and you will have to face some pretty tough opponents. Due to your small empire, you will not even have a very strong research either.
So you gotta kick some ass and fight for space. If you choose to do something, you better do it good.
Build 4 or 5 towns with nothing but rax. Research Iron Working, stop research, build veteran warriors and upgrade them. Then, keep building nothing but swords or horses. You will get them while they are still building settlers and run over those nieghbours like nothing.
From there, with the space you got, you can go on and build libraries.

OK, now i understand what you mean. This may actually be a good strategy on this map. It looks like Tricky is playing such a game, so we can compare our games and see which approach is better.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

To be sure i am not talking bullfeathers, i just did a fast little test game

Of course, it is not completely fair since i restarted, but using this strategy i gathered 17 swords and 9 vet warriors from my 5 cities by 1300BC.
Looking at it, it could have been better with only 4 cities.
Iron working was tradable for a load of the early techs.

1275BC, i took the first Greek city, it was defended by 1 guy.
1225BC, i the second defended by 2.
1200BC, the third, defended by1.

So at least the first part works fine