GOTM 81 - Final Spoiler

[Conquistador 63]

Nice discussion regarding the space race games, wish I could have played for it too. Good games from Jastrow and cas.

I also enjoyed the builder setup...for a while.

Had to expand by force towards domination, and the order was Mansa, Huayna, KK, Julius and Alex. The world enjoyed a long period of global peace after 1650AD. At that point I had to start gifting cities to Creative Hatty keep my land below the domination threshold.

I spent the next couple of centuries growing my population and learning Future Techs. I probably should have waited more, but started to get bored of the milking and planned to conquer most of the remaining AI cities in a final push. In 1898 I started a 2-turn blitzkrieg war - turn 1 to unload troops from ships, turn 2 to capture 23 cities.



Game status: Domination Victory for China
Game date: 1902AD
Turns played: 321
Base score: 13308
Final score: 91997

Let's hope it is enough for a cow, not in the mood to try for it again anytime soon.

 

[Jastrow]

@WelshGandalf,

I definitly agree with an early emancipation on this map, and also switched a lot earlier than normal. As to "libing", if it is a reasonable number of beakers for the time you can get lib safely, then that seems fine as well. I was able to wait quite a bit and chose computers from lib, but that will obviously be game dependent. Having said that, by the time I switched, democracy for the hammers from the towns, especially in the beuracracy capital, was worth more then representation. I am not sure I like the rep+emanc combination.

As for armies... I did have two tanks at the end (build in the last 10 turns to maximize overflow in preparing for the last space shape parts. This often shaves a turn off the end date). Until that, I dont think I hade anything more than a charriot. I kept a constant eye for WHEOOHRN, and was intending to bribe people into a war at the first sign of that, so I never built any defensive forces at all.

 

[WelshGandalf]

@Jastrow

I had no idea how long I could hang on before taking lib, but Democracy seemed the highest value tech I could get for some time, and was useful. The rep + emanc doesn't go together terribly well, but emanc you get from democracy which is also where you get the statue of liberty and that goes well with representation when you have loads of cities on one continent. I probably would've changed to US later in the game if this was BTS but I was reluctant to endure the turns of anarchy that there are on vanilla. At the time I switched to rep it was the best choice imo. I missed the feature of BUFFY that tells you how many of each improvement you have - knowing how many towns I have from that would've given me a good idea of when to switch to US.

Yeah I paid zero attention to diplomacy and I'm sure the declaration could've been avoided if I had paid more attention, but ultimately it mattered not. My lack of hammer cities was also an issue, it was rather late when I suddenly set all my worked to bulldoze towns in favour of watermills and the like....

 

[Jastrow]

Yes, the missing town indicator is a pain. I actually went through the exercise of manually counting them, but yuck...I agree representation was likely best at the time you switched. PLaying a spirititual leader, I would have first swtiched to representation, and then later to US. However, because of the anarchy, I only wanted to switch onces. The questions is wether the short term value of Rep outweights the long term value of US.

With Emancipation and 20 cities I had 80 towns by the end, so US was worth some 150 hammers, whereas Rep generated only ~100 extra beakers from the statue.

 

[Mitchum]

Space Victory for China - 1665 AD

I was a bit later than desired getting Oxford completed (475 AD per the autolog). I learned Education in 100 AD, so it took me 15 turns to complete. This was due to my final city lagging to get its library/university completed.

Another reason for the Oxford delay was that I researched Literature first to build the GLib in Beijing (525 BC - T94). As Jastrow said, building the GLib isn't always a no-brainer. However, I delayed Scientific Method a bit (T178) by researching other techs first (Steam Power, Constitution, Corporation, Liberalism -> Assembly Line), so I got 84 turns of use out of it... quite a bit more than the 44 turns Jastrow used in his calculation above. Of course, this delayed Biology and Physics which can't be a good thing but Civ is a game of tradeoffs...

In this game, the other continent didn't help much at all. I chose Hatty and Mansa Musa as my trading partners but probably only got four or five early/mid-game techs from them. Mansa only had 3 cities the entire game so he never got his empire off the ground. Had he had a reasonable start in my game, I think I could have shaved several turns off of my finish date.

I also planned my GP rather poorly. In fact, I never set up a GP Farm nor did I build the National Epic. Lame! Oh, and I never build Wall Street either. Double Lame!! I generated a total of 8 great people plus the free ones from Music, Physics, Economics and Fusion. I never got the GPro I wanted for a shrine, which could have helped me keep my slider up as there were a total of 31 Confused cities on the map (I owned 24 of them). The GA and GE were used for a Golden Age. The GM was used on a trade mission. One GE was settled in my production city. One GS was used for an Academy in my capital, three were settled there, and the rest were bulbed.

Overall, I'm happy with my result. If ZPV goes for Space as he mentioned in the first spoiler, I expect him to beat this date by a fair margin...

Thanks for the fun game, neilmeister!!

 

[WelshGandalf]

In this game, the other continent didn't help much at all. I chose Hatty and Mansa Musa as my trading partners but probably only got four or five early/mid-game techs from them. Mansa only had 3 cities the entire game so he never got his empire off the ground. Had he had a reasonable start in my game, I think I could have shaved several turns off of my finish date.

I'm not sure I got any techs from the others... maybe should've researched optics earlier. They were all backwards from the first time I met them.

By the end of my game, Mansa had wiped the Mongolians off the face of the planet!!! Funny how games turn out so differently.

 

[Mitchum]

I didn't get too much from the other continent. I did get Monarchy and Currency as well as a few useless techs (i.e. Mass Media and Military Tradition). I also forgot to mention that I got Optics before Education and had met all but one AI by 1AD.

 

[WelshGandalf]

I think it was after 1000 AD that I got round to finding them. Definitely something to consider. I was in such a builder mentality I never thought about Optics potentially giving back more than its beaker cost.

 

[Jastrow]

Nice game Mitchcum,

Now that you say it, I recognize a giant screw up in my game. I forgot that optics offers see going, and waited until astronomy to meet the AI. Given their backwards nature, I probably would have gotten one a tech or two, so it may not be a big influence at the end, but still, a horrible mistake to be making (and I realize that I have done the same thing twice within my last 5 games.)

 

[ZPV]

Space Victory for China - 1665 AD
Overall, I'm happy with my result. If ZPV goes for Space and plays it more than a day before the deadline as he mentioned in the first spoiler, I expect him to beat this date by a fair margin...

Thanks for the fun game, neilmeister!!

Fixed the quote for you.
Well played Mitchum. The less said about my game the better, I think (a meandering 1705 finish). To put it bluntly, I didn't take the time to micromanage North America or develop it intelligently, etc.

 

[Mitchum]

@ZPV Yes, a rushed game is rarely a great game. It seemed that you were in a good position at the 1 AD mark.

BTW, this game reminded me how much is sucks to build wealth/science in Vanilla. I ended up building most commerce-multiplying buildings in all of my production cities...

 

[jesusin]

jesusin, contender. Goal: Fastest cultural victory. Result: 1500AD cultural victory.

This game was a blast! It's one of the fastest (in real time) games I've played. I really enjoyed this builders dream.

Key numbers:
12 cities, 4 religions, 12 cathedrals, Liberalism 580AD, Mercantilism 1130AD, base culture per city: 250-120-100, 18GP.
Use of my 18GP: 1 GS for academy in capital. 1 undesired GE for instant Taj-Mahal. 1 GM from Economy settled quite late. 15GA used as culture bombs in the end (0 in capital, 7 in cottage city, 8 in GPFarm).

End game civics: Representation, FS, Castes, Mercantilism, Pacifism. I left slavery and OR for Castes and Pacifism at Liberalism (580AD).



Mistakes:

*** Getting Pyramids, failing to get Parthenon.

This one is huge.
Use I would have done of Parthenon before Liberalism: none
Use I did of Pyramids before Liberalism: none (well, to be truth it gave 2 happy to 5 cities, so I saved the hammers of 10 warriors under Monarchy).
Use I would have done of Parthenon after Liberalism: I would have had 50% more GPP. Looking at the GP cost, that would have translated in exactly 3 more GA. Not to speak of the improved GA probability when I got the undesired GE.
Use I did of Pyramids after Liberalism: kept on researching where otherwise I would have halted research completely. Benefits: Printing Press, accounting for 20 base culture; Economy, Accounting for almost nothing as the settled GM came too late; Mercantilism, accounting for a lost turn of anarchy, 18 base culture and 12 extra artists, which is the equivalent of 1 more GA. All in all, Pyramids gave the equivalent of 2GA.


*** Hermitage in the wrong city.

Huge difference in base culture and huge difference in hammers availability made me think "what the heck, I'll probably get enough GA to even things out in the end". I was probably just lazy. In my defense I must say that endgame-GA-nurturing is much more efficient in BTS. With double GPP during Golden Ages, starvation and correct generation order are much more powerful tools in BTS.
Capital ended up with 59000 culture. No Hermitage in capital would have required 1GA bombed instead of 0 GA bombed. On the other hand, Hermitage in cottages city would have produced some 8000 culture there, or 2GA less.


*** Stupid details

Like forgetting to build a cathedral for 20 turns or chopping at the wrong time...


*** Revolting to Castes+Pacifism too late.

18GP is too low a number for so late a finish date. I should have:
- Not whipped those last missionaries and temples
- Delayed the last 2 cathedrals
- Revolted to Castes and Pacifism around 200AD
This would have had two main benefits: faster research to Liberalism thanks to the Representation beakers, more GAs in the end to make Hermitage-in-the-best city worth it. The cost wouldn't have been so huge, 20 turns deelay in 2 cathedrals in the cottage and GPFarm cities would have been some 2000 culture less, or just half a GA.

 

[jesusin]

There is a trick I'd like to share. I supose most of you already do similar things. It's called "instant cathedral building".

Say you are playing a cultural game, you have two 12-pop cities with very few hammers, you have 2 religions and 3 temples built of each. You are about to revolt out of slavery.

-Normal behavior:
you whip 4 pop in each city to get one cathedral in each city.
Much later, when another triplet of temples is built, each city has to slow-build the second cathedral.

- Trick:
you whip 4 pop in each city for one of the cathedrals but then, in the very same turn, you change production queues and leave the whipped cathedrals out of the queues. Then you put the other cathedral in the queue and whip again.
Much later, when another triplet of temples is built, each city can instant-build their second cathedral, as the hammers are already in it.

 

[jesusin]

Qin / Culture Win in 1640.

I founded 6 religions and built (or bought) every cathedral except for 1 of them. I also built cities 10 and 11 to help with religious spread and health resources. The religious situation was a bit awkward when I started meeting the AIs at around 1400 AD, since they were all Hindu! Fortunately I was ahead of them tech-wise. I also built 12 World Wonders (all in my legendaries) and 3 National Wonders (national epic was in my artist farm, which was not a legendary). Only 6 artists generated (plus 1 for music), and I didn't have towns for a long time, so probably I could have done better by building fewer early wonders. I also could have gotten to Liberalism a bit sooner, which is key to an early finish date. Nevertheless, given that this was my first culture win, I was quite happy with the result.

Wow, that is a very respectable date for a first cultural attempt! Congratulations.

The main difference between our games seems to be the number of cultural bombs we used at the end, 7 against 15. I agree that skipping some WW would have been good for your game, because they decrease Great Artist probability.

I can understand StoneHenge, as it makes city development much faster. I always skip it, as it brings too many early GPP of the wrong type.
I can't understand the building of the Great Library. It brings 8 (eight!!!) GPP of the wrong type and it doesn't bring any relevant benefit for your civ.


Other relevant difference between our games is the number of religions, 6 against 4. I refrained from a 5th religion (islam). Why? Because it would have induced me to spend more time at slavery and working mines when I should be hiring artists for more GA. I think I was wrong not to go for the 5th religion.

What do you think of your sixth religion? Was it worth it? What date did you finish building your last cathedral?

 

[jesusin]

I also settled in place and played the game through in one session. I decided on culture from the start and concentrated on founding religions. Built Stonehenge and the Oracle (which got me civil service). Did not have a state religion though, and no slavery.Had at least a half dozen artists by the time the game ended. Went for liberalism for the double culture civic and before that researched drama. Was a bit late bumping the culture slider up, though I did do it before researching astronomy. Built many cathedral type buildings and the Hermatage. Managed the cultural victory in 1874 AD.

Thanks for sharing.

There is one point I can't understand, why didn't you adopt a state religion? It gives you a happy face early. Also you can combine it with OR for faster cathedral building and (specially!) with Pacifism for more Great Artists generation.

6 GA at 1874AD are too few, I guess you could have shaved many turns if you had got some more GAs.

 

[ZPV]

In my defense I must say that endgame-GA-nurturing is much more efficient in BTS. With double GPP during Golden Ages, starvation and correct generation order are much more powerful tools in BTS.

Everything is faster in the late game, in BTS. I imagine late Civ3 compared with Vanilla must have felt like Vanilla does, compared with the BTS endgame. There's also the 12-turn 1-man golden age to consider

What do you mean by correct generation order? Is there something funny about which GP gets spawned when multiple cities hit the threshold at the same time in Vanilla?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Well no such luck, just about 63% land in the old world.

I should have known: All map makers are evil!

With my economy very similar to the Greek, it took me a looong time to research Astronomy. At 1100AD I finally had it and 10 turns later I founded a few cities in the new world to trigger domination.

You were confident that you could calculate the tiles needed and were sure there were enough in the old world. What happened?

- Trick:
you whip 4 pop in each city for one of the cathedrals but then, in the very same turn, you change production queues and leave the whipped cathedrals out of the queues. Then you put the other cathedral in the queue and whip again.
Much later, when another triplet of temples is built, each city can instant-build their second cathedral, as the hammers are already in it. Am I reading that this trick allowed you to build 2 cathedrals with the same four pop in both cities -- that is, 4 cathedrals for 8 pop?

 

[Mitchum]

@Jesusin

Thanks for the tip. I have never thought of that.

@CP

The way I read it is this. You need 3 temples to build a cathedral. If you only have 3 (or 6) temples, you can only build 1 (or 2) cathedrals. You're dying to switch out of Slavery to Caste System. So you queue up the cathedral in Legendary 1, whip it, and then take it out of the build queue without completing it. Then, you queue up that same cathedral type (i.e. Buddhist) in Legendary 2, whip it, and complete it. Finally, when you've finished those final three Buddhist temples required to build another cathedral later in the game, you queue up that Buddhist cathedral again in Legendary 1 and it's already done... well, it will be done the following turn.

So, you can revolt out of Slavery sooner and not have to worry about sloooowwww building those final cathedrals.

 

[ZPV]

- Trick:
you whip 4 pop in each city for one of the cathedrals but then, in the very same turn, you change production queues and leave the whipped cathedrals out of the queues. Then you put the other cathedral in the queue and whip again.
Much later, when another triplet of temples is built, each city can instant-build their second cathedral, as the hammers are already in it. Am I reading that this trick allowed you to build 2 cathedrals with the same four pop in both cities -- that is, 4 cathedrals for 8 pop?

He had three temples, and whipped, but did not complete, a cathedral for those in city 1. Then he removed it from the queue, and did the same for city 2.

Normally he'd have to wait for 6 temples before putting any hammers in the second cathedral, by which time he would have switched out of slavery.
(He can't finish the 2nd cathedral, but it still has 240 whip hammers in it, waiting to be used when the 6th temple is done.)

edit: it's like double-building a wonder, for the refund gold you get when it's completed, except you get a pre-built cathedral once it becomes available.

 

[jesusin]

- Trick:
you whip 4 pop in each city for one of the cathedrals but then, in the very same turn, you change production queues and leave the whipped cathedrals out of the queues. Then you put the other cathedral in the queue and whip again.
Much later, when another triplet of temples is built, each city can instant-build their second cathedral, as the hammers are already in it. Am I reading that this trick allowed you to build 2 cathedrals with the same four pop in both cities -- that is, 4 cathedrals for 8 pop?

No, no, you whip 2 cathedrals in each city, 4 pop per cathedral for a total loss of 16pop. The cities in the example go from pop12 to pop4.
I am sorry not to have explained the thing more clearly. ZPV and Mitchun have done a better job at explaining it (thank you!).

Slavery and whipping is not important for the trick, it was just an example situation. You can do the same by slowbuilding the two cathedrals close to completion, then changing the cathedral type each city is building to the other one, then slowbuild it completely. When much later you get to 6 temples of one of the religions, you have all the hammers there ready.