Gotm 83

[ccAMELS73]

ok, so then WHAT?
If early Republic is not the most economical way to go, then would that not make early monarchy the most beneficial tech path to start this gotm with?
I understand that your 1 gold/sheild for selling barracks off isnt the most economical thing to do for most games, but if i build/sell 3 barracks before I discover currency then I can use that 120 gold to rush buy a market when I do get that tech. Does that make sense or am I thinking about this wrong?

 

[Banach]

ok, so then WHAT?
If early Republic is not the most economical way to go, then would that not make early monarchy the most beneficial tech path to start this gotm with?
I understand that your 1 gold/sheild for selling barracks off isnt the most economical thing to do for most games, but if i build/sell 3 barracks before I discover currency then I can use that 120 gold to rush buy a market when I do get that tech. Does that make sense or am I thinking about this wrong?

Without a doubt it makes some sense. There's a LOT of room for individuality in this game, and a skilled player can win in a variety of scenarios, with a variety of strategies. I've no doubt that one could win this game with either early Republic or Monarchy. The real question is - which one is OPTIMAL (If you're a real nitpicker, you'd ask what optimal means. In that case, I'd suggest the two simplest metrics - EC or EL, best date). With a situation this unique, I agree with Ali - only a series of comparison games would bear out the best strategy in this situation. I have my own secret tech strategy that I'll discuss in the spoiler after I see how well it pans out I think that the most important thing is to have a PLAN. The player who plans well will fare well in this game, provided they have a sound strategy. One who doesn't plan will suffer somewhat, and the person without a sound strategy will have problems provided they are not a Capablanca-esque positional style player who doesn't look ahead much. It's my opinion that that would be a sub-par strategy in this game, but a skilled player could still crush the computer with very little planning ahead of time.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Banach got the basic idea right. Why would you turn your shields into 1 gold (by selling barracks) then spend 2.5 of them to get 1 shield back while rushing caravans for a wonder? Every shield gone towards a barrack is a net loss of 1.5 coins.

The thing to do, in my opinion anyways, is to build warriors while you research the first tech, then switch to a wonder. Which wonder you pick is immaterial as you can switch away to another wonder when you have more techs. The conclusion is that your first tech ought to be one giving you the ability to build a wonder. Bronze is an excellent choice. Masonry and Pottery would also do.

The goal is not to save Gold, but time. Gold is there to be spent.

Take your point a step further... Wonders cost 4 gold per shield to buy while units cost 2.5 gold (using your number) per.

To me the Barracks turns shileds into gold which can then be used to rush buy units that speed up the Wonder building process. Net savings to time, not gold. The points in this game are going to be low, so the number of turns used for the game could be key.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

This forum is just amazing.

WRONG, You can build a City with 6 Shields....- You can get 6 Shields as I did early in the game.

After you get the city size 6, I build a Settler, then he proceeded to " Mine " the Island,so I got a 6 Shield City.
That also stop the city from growing, avoiding Riots.

Wow. What an idea. I am amazed by your creativity even though I am doubtful about it being optimal.

The points in this game are going to be low, so the number of turns used for the game could be key.

This is a very important point. If you are playing for the GOTM score, as with any other goal, you have to think differently. Typically playing OCC you have no chance of competing for GOTM score with other players. Here you do.

Finally, one more thought occurred to me regarding the early republic vs. monarchy debate. If you do manage to get to trade early enough, in Monarchy you can celebrate for one turn just before delivery and get the extra arrows you would have gotten from republic. Because of defenders passifying unhappy citizens celebrating before religious infrastructure is easier in monarchy than it is in republic. Now I am all but certain that monarchy beats early republic here.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

If you are playing a peaceful game here Colossus is an essential wonder. Even for conquest players it is a nice to have. Here is an analysis of its cost benefit here.

For a city of size n, Colossus gives n+1 extra arrows. In the absence of library and marketplace this translates into n+1 beakers or gold. However, marketplace and library together give (2n+1)*.5 extra beakers/gold before monarchy, (2n+3)*.5 after monarchy and before republic, and (3n+4)*.5 after republic. The first two are almost the same as and the next one is superior to the return from Colossus regardless of n.

Conclusion: Build library and marketplace before you build Colossus.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Marco is an essential wonder no matter what your style of play is. It is also one of the first wonders one builds. Here are my thoughts on its usefulness here.

The special settings of this game make Marco of dubious value. Map exchange is next to useless since geography is known and the world is minimal size (1024 tiles; absolute minimum is 1000). Rivals are unlikely to ally or pay tribute due to geography. Even if they ally with you there will be little chance for getting gifts since you are likey going to be supreme quickly even with one city. All marco does is that it allows tech exchange. However, with the rivals being closeby if you can get to them quickly you can initiate tech exchange fairly quickly. The key to early mobility is of course Lighthouse.

 

[URUWASHI]

Firts of all , I want to thank you Ali , for a very interesting game.
I was not able to finish games 81 and 82 on schedule because of lack of playing time.

This was a sweet and fast game, I think I played in less than 6 hours.

I made a few misstakes , and changed strategy twice.
Originally I decided to go for conquest...then for SS , finally I could not change my old instincts and decided to build all 28 wonders and settle for conquest.

I agree, with the early republic strategy, because the low shield factor ( six ) mantaining 3 Phalanxes as defenders and controllers of riots Monarchy was a Must.
I played the early stages of the game in Monarchy, until I built Kings Richard and the population was beyond 8. Then changed to Republic ( For a few turns ) and changed to Democracy staying as long as I could away from Industrialization.

By the time Industrialization was achieved, all my 6 cities had a 20 + size , the next goal was the offshore platform.

I finish the game as I usually do , with all 28 wonders and only lost 3 units.

The idea of " Mining " the island ang achieving an extra shield then two in Republic or Democracy = 7

If you add Kings Richard you get an extra 4 Shields per turn so I think the concept was optimal .

I did the same,by using my lonely Settler/Engineer to be sent to Mining Moscow,Carthage,Karakorum, Tokyo and Persepolis then adding offshore plataforms in each city..that strategy turned into lots of shields, by doing that I was able to build the infrastructure of all my cities and achieve size 20 plus in most of them. Then building all wonders.

Once again Ali..Thanks for a well planned game

 

[Peaster]

Lots of good thoughts here, but methinks some of them belong in the spoiler thread.

 

[Ace]

Lots of good thoughts here, but methinks some of them belong in the spoiler thread.

Yes. We seem to have expanded the original data thread into a defacto spoiler thread. Mea Culpa!

 

[Ace]

Oh Hell!! This thread is too interesting to give up on. Ali, the Duke is right on about time in this gotm. Money is only worth what it can do for you to speed up the game. During the run to Republic, the only thing you really need to build is 2 or 3 warriors. ( I built two, than a barracks, than a vet warrior before selling off the barracks). Than as soon as you revolt to Republic, use the 2 non-vet warriors as seed shields for the next two barracks.

Regarding Republic vs. Monarchy, you did not include in your discussion that with Republic, you can jack up the lux and in a couple of turns be at size 8. Than cut the lux back to just enough to keep the city happy and kick out those vans for the run to steam engine. And benefit from the extra trade arrows those additional citizens are generating.

You will never get off that island before 1AD if you spend 40 turns building the Colossus and then 40 more building the Lighthouse. Using the time to build and sell barracks gives you the cash to rush vans after trade while researching map making. By the time get map making, you should have 4 food freight and a trireme finished. Switch to lighthouse, pour in the food vans and next turn your off and running. The only other improvement one might want to build before getting steam engine, is a marketplace to increase cash and lux, otherwise, keep pouring out the vans to get those trade bonus'.

Some of the wonders would be "nice to have", but they take way too much time to build. Not cost effective when you factor in time. Likewise a library, the few beakers it yields each turn is no comparison to the 160+ gold & beakers you would get from the hides van you built and delivered instead of the lib. And, lastly, a temple is not really worth it either. It would help, but its not really needed, especially if you do build the marketplace.

You are right about comparison games. Run a couple and you will see the differences between the diff paths. This gotm is perfect for early Republic. Once the coins start flowing from trade, you really only need 1 shield in the box to reduce the initial cost to rush vans.

 

[URUWASHI]

Ace , thats exactly what I did.
Build caravans, since I had the gold from selling Barracks several times, I kept them until something worth it was feasable...( granary, Marketplace, aqueduct ).
Then you have to build a trireme, for instance I built MP early, by buiding caravans..then a Trireme will take 2 " out " of the city and deliver them back again,repeat the process in the same turn and a 400 shield wonder can be built. ( Marco Polo in my game was a Must )

I did not bother building the Lighthouse, triremes are very fragile and loading 2 caravans that have a a slim chance to survive when one of the other civs may attack, plus the Turn factor to buil 1 trireme , and 2 caravans requires 140 shields ( or so...), when your city is only creating 6 shields per turn ..thats about 23 + turns that may be lost in one attack, was not worth it.

I disagree , about building a Temple.

Playing in Deity level , you need 3 Military units and a temple to keep the city from rioting.A Temple will have an effect.

I built a Settler that mined the Island when it was size 7 ( I think ..) and mined the Island , so I got an extra shield, ) I lost 1 food resource in exchange ) and my food resources were equal to feed the city ( 12 food ).When I built Kings Richard I got also an extra shield..and one more under Republic, so Mining gave me 4 total extra shields ( maximum = 27 Per Turn ).

City never grew above 6 until I got to Republic/ Kings Richard/ Aqueduct then the city had 13 shields, 3 to support the military and 10 to spend on infrastucture.

 

[Peaster]

Ace: I wasn't refering to you, actually, and I don't want to ruin the fun.

It's fine to speculate before you start about the best way to play the game. But after you start, play 100 turns or more, and then post in the spoiler! The main thread is not the place to describe what you did, and how it turned out.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Peaster is making a good point. All I have said so far is based on pre game thoughts. Please move post game info to spoiler thread.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Regarding Republic vs. Monarchy, you did not include in your discussion that with Republic, you can jack up the lux and in a couple of turns be at size 8.

Good point. I meant to address that separately and never got around to do it. Celebrations in Republic are indeed quite powerful. Here are my thoughts. It is impossible to celebrate in republic without a temple (or some other happiness structure). You need 5 techs for Republic and 2 for a temple(Ceremonial Burial and Mysticism) before you can celebrate. Once you have them you can celebrate up to size 7 (not 8). Once you reach size 7 celebration is no longer possible since you need to passify at least 3 citizens by means other than luxuries and your temple only does 2. You will be at least size 4 by the time you get 7 techs and thus celebrations do get you 3 sizes up.

The above strategy, however, comes at the expense of delaying early trade. You need 1 more tech (Mapmaking) for Lighthouse, and 3 more for Trade before you can start trading. That is a total of 11 techs. In contrast, if you go the Monarchy path you need 4 techs for Monarchy plus Mapmaking plus 3 for trade for a total of 8. Furthermore, until you go above size 8 or build a Marketplace the republic is not paying for itself (compared to Monarchy).

While my intuition tells me Monarchy beats early republic before size 8, I am not 100% sure. Only a comparison game would tell.

 

[URUWASHI]

I agree with Ali , since I played that style of game.
Republic is very much useless UNLESS..you have Kings Richards....to keep a size 6 or 7 city we need 3 Units ( Warriors - or Phalanxes ..PLUS a temple ).
If you swich to republic too early ...you have 3 shileds minnimum going to your defensive units ) I got an extra one by mining the island....so Early republic will give you 2 " net " shields per turn.

I was lucky to achive the Republic and Democracy within 6 or 7 turns..and having KR.

Its also no point on letting your city to grow over 8 without Construction ( Aqueduct ), besides riots will occur in every turn..this is Diety level.

In a nutshell, REpublic is useless until Engineering is achieved.

Interestingly , by Mining the island I acheived an extra shield and a balance on food ,so My city never grew over " 6 " until I was ready to go for the Aqueduct, so I concentrated on creating Caravans.

When KR was built than I went bersek, bulding the infrastructure....no turns were lost to riots as I recall.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Another strategy worth consideration, and surprisingly not mentioned by anyone, is speeding up growth in Monarchy via a granary. Once it is built it halves the time it takes to grow to the next size, it only costs 1g to maintain and 60 shields to build. The only problem is that pottery is not on the path of anything needed urgently at the start.

In Monarchy every citizen brings you two extra arrows and requires two coins to passify. Before marketplace you are breaking even unless you make deliveries in which case the extra arrows make a significant difference. After marketplace, the two arrows turn into 3 coins for a net gain of 1. Of course, you have to pay 2 coins each turn for the maintenance of your granary and marketplace.

Ordinarily, granaries are not worth it since there are far more important stuff to build. But here with no settlers to build and starting with no techs in Deity, if you find yourself building barracks for a sale you may want to consider a granary.

 

[Magic_gorter]

Don't know certain but when in Republic and building Hanging Gardens in time (first or second wonder) it is possible to celebrate early and become big very soon. Did not try this but mayby with a replay I try it.

 

[Peaster]

Interestingly , by Mining the island I acheived an extra shield and a balance on food ,so My city never grew over " 6 " until I was ready to go for the Aqueduct, so I concentrated on creating Caravans.

When KR was built than I went bersek, bulding the infrastructure....no turns were lost to riots as I recall.

Gee... This would be great material for a spoiler thread.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Don't know certain but when in Republic and building Hanging Gardens in time (first or second wonder) it is possible to celebrate early and become big very soon. Did not try this but mayby with a replay I try it.

Yes. Hanging Gardens allows you to celebrate further. Without it you can only celebrate up to size 7 in republic, with Hanging Gardens you can go to size 9. Of course going from 8 to 9 requires an aqueduct.

Other than aiding with the celebration the Hanging Gardens is not a worthwhile early choice here. The ongoing value of the gardens is up to 6g per turn. Colossus matches this for city size 5 and beats it above 5. Since it takes a while to build the first wonder you will be size 4 by the time the first one gets done.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

As I was planing my game, I was going to start with Bronze Working to allow starting a wonder by the time I am done making a couple of warriors. My next research goal was Monarchy followed by Mapmaking. My intent was to switch the wonder from Colossus to Lighthouse at the last moment. I decided to see if that is possible and it turns out it is not. Here is my analysis:

While your city size is 1 you get 30 shields and 20 (10*2) beakers.
While your city size is 2 you get 75 shields and 45 (15*3) beakers.
While your city size is 3 you get 100 shields and 80 (20*4) beakers.
While your city size is 4 you get 5 shields and 5 beakers per turn.

Building the 2 warriors plus Lighthouse requires 230 shields (10 will be wasted) which means that you will be done after 5 turns into city size 4. Getting 6 techs (Bronze, Monarchy and its prereqs, Mapmaking) requires roughly 10+20+30+40+50+60 = 210 beakers which takes 13 turns into city size 4. This is not close enough. As a result I have decided to delay Bronze and go for Mapmaking right away.

Here is my strategy:

Tech path: Alpha, Mapmaking, Burial, Laws, Monarchy, Writing, Bronze, Currency, Trade, Myst, Philosophy, Construction, Engineering, Seafaring, Republic, Medicine, Sanitation.

Build path: Barracks, 2 warriors, (barracks sold), Lighthouse, Trireme, Library and diplomat (not sure about the order). These will be followed by Marketplace, Temple, Aqueduct, and commodity caravans not necessarily in that order. Next production will move on to King Richard and Colossus followed by Shakespeare.

Government path: Monarchy before Aqueduct. Republic after till city hits max size. Switch back to Monarchy and wage war.