GOTM 87 - Final Spoiler

neilmeister · Feb 4, 2013

GOTM 87 Final Spoiler

So how did your game after 1AD go? Tell everyone and discuss in this thread, subject to...

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So, did you survive?
How did you go without resources?

MarleysGh0st · Feb 5, 2013

The struggle was long, but futile.

The first war with Monty 2 ended in 225 AD, when I paid him some tech for a peace treaty. He attacked me again in 900; we ended that war in a stalemate in 1140.

I try to build the Hanging Gardens to gain some much needed health, but someone beats me to it in 1280.

I attack Monty 2 in 1570 and Monty 3 attack me the following turn. :mad:

And, oh great, he has horse archers, too! I can never build enough spears! Anyway, I'm able to bribe Monty 1 to help me against Monty 3. Monty 4 declares war on Monty 1, but since he won't sign an open border with me, he can't move in to attack. I capture one city from M2, before getting some gold from both M2 and M3 for peace.

I attack M2 in 1810 and M4 makes peace with M1 and attacks me the following turn. :mad:

I capture Teotihuacan and get some gold from M2 for peace in 1830 and I get M1 to resume the war against M4 in 1840. I get more gold from M4 for peace in 1866.

That was just in time, because M3 attacks me in 1872. M2 joins M1 in the war against M4, but he won't open his borders, so he grows closer to M1 for the "mutual struggle" without actually engaging the enemy. I capture four cities from M3, before getting tech and gold for a peace treaty in 1927. The War of the Other Monties has already ended by this time.

M4 attacks me in 1932. I get M1's help in 1935. M1 razes one city (just before I could have captured it) but I capture another and get gold for peace in 1954. I'm expecting M3 to attack again, any time now...

But it's M2 who attacks me in 1956, showing up with a large stack that recaptures Teotihuacan! My counterattack fails, and then M3 attacks in 1963. And now, along with the rifles that are the common ground unit by this point, he has artillery! He recaptures one of his cities. M1 has made peace with M4, but he won't help me against either of my new opponents. Before I lose any more cities, I decide that it's time for me to retire with my pitiful score of 1,862 points. :cry:

This was an interesting scenario, but at this level, it was beyond my ability. I trailed badly in hammer production throughout the game. Although I had an early tech lead, that was neutralized by the need to hand techs away to keep the neighbors peaceful, and by the end of the game I was trailing in tech, too. And every time I did think I was ready to win some territory, a second opponent attacked without asking for a bribe, first.

Perhaps if there were some gaps in those mountain lines, so that one Monty could directly attack another, I might have had a chance. As it was...I was surprised I lasted as long as I did.

Sleepless · Feb 7, 2013

Long long struggle as well.. Not surprisingly only having 2 cities at 1AD. For a long while I was able to concentrate on Monte 2 whilst defending against Monte 3. No health and happy resources meant lots of small cities which I had to keep on going round emphasising commerce as I was in constant danger of the last 2000 years having units go on strike.

Eventually hit the domination limit in 1971..Don't think that will be the fastest..

Tech rate through the whole game for me was abysmal. Perhaps it would have been better to raise cities and settle later. Though I did face a lot of barbs anyway. Is vanilla different to BTS in the spawning of barbs. Sure I had "fogbusted" the BTS way and still had barbs spawn in shaded tiles??

Thanks for the game neimeister. Not sure I want to play another one like this though. Especially as I struggled in the last WOTM with a weak starting capital as well.

Metals popping. I did get another source of copper as did Monte 4. Would have much preferred a nice precious metal instead.

shulec · Feb 7, 2013

Oops, was posting for BOTM!

Jastrow · Feb 9, 2013

Conquest, around 1550AD.

I am normally pretty much a pure builder, and go to space almost every game. This did not appear to be a realistic option in this set-up, so I decided to go pure conquest instead. Of course, given my tendency to spacerace, I have no warring skills, so I look forward to seeing my time beaten by about a millenia, and learning what those who know how to conquest actually did differently.

tmorgan2005 · Feb 11, 2013

I was happy to see copper pop in my capital, I tried axe rushing Monty 4 and didn't end up finishing him off until I got Cats. Then I had problems with Barbs and Monty 2 DOW'ing me and destroying me in 1610. This was my first attempt at any level above Noble which I'm still learning. So it was a good learning experience. Thanks for the map.

neilmeister · Feb 11, 2013

Well done on lasting that long tmorgan2005!

This map played harder than Monarch, much more like Emperor.

Ronnie1 · Feb 11, 2013

Tech rate was not good ever really. I tried to balance a growing civ with a tech rate above 0 for a lot of the game. I took Feudalism from the Oracle, used a Great Scientist to bulb Math for better early chopping and then teched to Construction for Cats. I warred against Monty 3 1st. Monty 1 actually attacked me earlier but didn't do any damage. So I attacked M3 because I was already settled on the river in that area and it seemed like a reasonable way to go given the poor tech rate. I made peace part way through, after getting all his established cities for all his techs at the time and then finished him off starting in 10 turns.

Next up was going to be M1, but M4 popped Iron so I decided to send my main stack through his territory and attack from the rear into the iron city immediately. Again after taking all but 1 city, he planted 1 the turn I captured what was supposed to be his final 3, I made peace for all his techs because I had already started warring against M1. I was a bit out of position and the new city was defended by a Mace and a Pike.

Finally I attacked M1, I got through his first 2 "columns" of cities and made peace so I could finish M3 and heal my 3 stacks. M2 burned a few of his cities and captured 1 near the mountains.

I was late building my final settlers and ended with far too many troops alive.

Result was

Spoiler :

undead · Feb 13, 2013

(At 1 AD, I have 1 settled city 3 tiles to the NW on the flatland near the river, M2's capital with horses and gems, and another city of M2's even farther.)

125AD: maybe I didn't need to capture the second city, but it was so undefended! will have to fight maintenance; lots of barbs now
150AD: M1 adopts police state: he must have the mids, might be a nice target
540AD: scouting M1 with open borders, found Tenochtitlan: mids + twice holy
560AD: M1 has horses!!! :eek:

(good thing I hesitated before trading horse riding to him!)
600AD: M3 has horses too!
660AD: research CoL; M3 has an horse archer; swordsman barbarian
800AD: M4 has horses...

(sleep)

(plan: finish M2 with axes and cats; be first to cavalry by pillaging cottages; build some spearmen)

860AD: research currency (then civil service and gunpowder)
920AD: assign 2 scientists in a not so "food city" for an academy
980AD: M1 has parthenon (in mids city); research civil service
1030AD: another city of M2's has now 0% defense (should have brought more cats)
1040AD: M1 asks for CoL (refuse)
1110AD: M1 declares war
1140AD: academy in capital
1150AD: peace with M2 for 10g, monotheism and 10 gpt; now waiting for M1 (nice to know where he'll come from)
1170AD: CS ready (maceman accepts copper, didn't remember that)

(sleep)

1170AD: switch to bureaucracy and caste system
1320AD: switch to HR and slavery
1390AD: M3 builds the hanging gardens (should have tried this one)
1410AD: first to philosophy
1420AD: gold per turn: better and better
1430AD: peace with M2 for literature and 10 g; gold rival worst: -6
1460AD: M4 gives 110g for map
1470AD: M2 is dead (never found any building in his cities)
1590AD: first to liberalism, choose nationalism
1595AD: M3 declares war!
1635AD: M1 declares war!
1645AD: M1 sends 11 horse archers + 2 cats
1690AD: M3 pays 180g for peace
1720AD: military tradition, at last!

(sleep)

1760AD: M4 WHEOOHRNs
1765AD: make peace with M1 for drama, world map, 80g and 6gpt
1814AD: M4 declares war!
1816AD: M3 WHEOOHRNs
1832AD: pillaging M4 heavily (never capturing cities to avoid maintenance and losses, maybe not a good idea) and whipping cavs; 15 cavs; 2nd in gold (instead of 1st) but 3d in soldiers (instead of 4th)
1834AD: M3 shows up with 17 cavs and 4 cats, war imminent (happens on next turn)
1846AD: M4's horse pasture pillaged
1854AD: switch to free speech + mercantilism + free religion; 218gpt => 157gpt ?! maybe forgot the academy bonus in the capital
1864AD: peace with M4 for theology + world map + 230g
1876AD: M3's power climbs: rifling; I lose a lot because of his grenadiers anyway; would he attack with the riflemen; peace with M3 for calendar, world map, 80g and 6gpt
1882AD: back to bureaucracy
1884AD: M1 declares war before I do so
1885AD: M4 WHEOOHRNs
1921AD: M4 declares war
1923AD: alea jacta est: 11 cavs+1gre+1cat (should have brought more to lower defense faster...) vs 7 defs in M1's mids city... => OK!
1931AD: universal suffrage + free speech

(sleep)

1933AD: peace with M1 for compass, world map, 270g (missed 600g because he upgraded to riflemen) and 6gpt; M3 WHEOOHRNs... (M3 is definitely first in power and gold for some mysterious reason: never pillaged seriously? number of cities? hanging gardens?)
1940AD: peace with M4 for optics, world map and 610g (prepare for M3's war)
1943AD: M3 declares war
1944AD: run representation
1950AD: assembly line researched; research democracy
1951AD: M1 & M4 WHEOOHRN...
1954AD: M3 has infantry! my stack goes away
1956AD: M3 didn't attack my stack; I go pillage just one town... M3 destroys my stack...
1959AD: M1 takes back mids city (defended by 1 infantry) (this city wasn't that good after all anyway, drowned in culture)

(enough stupidity; sleep)

1960AD: democracy => switch to emancipation
1962AD: M1 has cavalry
1963AD: M1 takes back another city
1966AD: M4 WHEOOHRNs...
1970AD: it's more fun to defend with infantry on a city hill than with cavalry on a plain near the capital (less work needed; or because it's now clear that the game is lost) (settling four cities with archers on a hill in each territory might have been better)
1976AD: peace with M1 for 710g; M3 has railroad; M4's power increases greatly, like M3's!
1984AD: switch to state prop + universal suffrage; research electricity
1995AD: lost a totally undefended city to M1 (declared war without the usual arrogant demand)
2003AD: created my second settled city on a forgotten river site; maybe should have settled more in dead M2's land
2013AD: peace with M3 for electricity (first time I pay for peace, but M3 is really scary so I'm glad he accepts)
2016AD: M1 has artillery! M4 has a lot of artillery !
2018AD: heroic epic built in another late city, next to the capital
2021AD: M4 asks for astronomy... OK, why not? industrialism on next turn
2022AD: research biology
2024AD: brand new SEAL... attacked and killed by artillery! (he only had attack bonus, OK)
2028AD: open borders with M4? why not? just curious...; liberalism + physics to M4 for steel + 750g
2029AD: M4's stack crosses my territory (going for M1?)
2033AD: M4 declares war on M1; nice M4
2041AD: I realize that no coal, no railroad
2044AD: environmentalism, just for fun
2050AD: M3 wins a time victory (congratulations M3)

Jastrow · Feb 14, 2013

I have to say I am very surprised by Undead's report... Without resources (OK, in his case admittedly one of the Monties popped an early Gem, but one resources should not change what I am saying *that* much), I was expecting global techrate to be much worst than that. I see infantry in 1950. My guess would have been that the best the AI would get to in this set up would have been something like Infantry at 2050, and maybe rifles in 1950.

neilmeister · Feb 14, 2013

Sounds epic undead.

Hope you enjoyed it!

undead · Feb 14, 2013

(the images are from the last save)

I certainly enjoyed it! Circa 1595 AD, I had a false sense of security, false but comforting nevertheless. :lol:

I thought that the AI would have too many cities and be slow in tech. And pillaging M4 and seeing his GNP going down to zero was nice

until I noticed something wrong about M3. :eek:

Then a lot of war happened, a bit tedious (but not to the point of disabling animations). Then I noticed that M4, "pillaged down to the stone age", was recovering quite well. :twitch:

According to the latest save, M3 has 2 gems, M4 or M1 has gold, but it's probably not important. I couldn't open the save in world builder (any way to do this after the game?), but it seems that M3's population is 1 or 2 pops higher than the others, because of the hanging gardens. His palace is more central than mine (less distance maintenance), and he doesn't have that many cities (even less than I at some point). And I never pillaged him seriously.

Anyway, I 'll try some strategies from various stages of the game (settle more cities, more cats, conquer more cities, pillage while moving to a city, ignore mids city, capture hanging gardens city...). I could win, I guess. [edit: not so sure: replayed quickly from 1 AD, died twice]

zbgayumn · Feb 16, 2013

This is a tale of some early assumptions and bad choices that I almost overcame, but eventually succumbed to. First, I assumed it would be a good idea to get an early religion despite not having Mysticism as a starting tech. I lost out on Buddhism and Hinduism, but I doubled down and finally got Judaism. When I realized who surrounded me on all four sides, I thought I could use the spread of Judaism to neutralize at least one front. I worked for a while, with M2 adopting my religion and being pleased, but I didn't account for the fact the Monty will pursue EVERY religious tech. Eventually, M2 founded Islam, dumped Judaism and attacked almost immediately.

My second assumption was that there was no way the one resource would be copper. Maybe, I think Neilmeister is more cruel than he really is. Anyway, after teching to Monotheism, I still didn't prioritize BW until my cities were big enough for whipping. So, when I found that copper, it was a little late in the game to take best advantage of it. I was still able to go after M3 and take his capital plus one city on the way, but I had hoped to destroy him. Between war weariness and attacks from M1, I couldn't do it.

My third assumption was that Monty sucks at teching, so I don't have to push too hard on the science rate. I kept on believing that one right up until M2 brought Cavalry down on my Musketmen and Grenadiers. When I got to Chemistry and converted most of my Maces to Grens, I was having a good ol' time swallowing up the remains of M3. Then M1 and M2 DoW'd me within 3 turns of each other. I had a defensive force at the M1 border because I expected it from him. He brought Horse Archers and Catapults, and even though it was like 25 HA's, I killed them off. I thought M2 was also bringing HA's at me, and although Philadelphia was not as well defended, I thought it could hold until I pulled units away from the conquest of M3. When I saw that they were Cavalry I knew my doom was sealed. I retired in 1890, rather than fighting a long hopeless war.

neilmeister · Feb 16, 2013

Hehehe, it was a difficult setup, to be sure. Even if you had a long struggle, I hope you enjoyed it and learned some new things about the game.

The key to this map was killing off one of the Monties, then you have a completely safe corner to hide in.

You got copper, all of the monties got horses. So, you had the ability to build spears to defend against all of monties best units (chariots, HA's...) and axes to fend off the barbs and go attacking.

The-Hawk · Feb 22, 2013

Continuing the story

Monty 2 DOW was not much of an issue. My expansion to date had been along the river to the NW and a captured city to the SE, so Monty 2 had to attack my capital. Other than him pillaging a farm, he was easy to control. He sent Jags and Chariots, I killed them. Eventually we made peace.

Tech Path:

After getting Lit and Monarchy before 1 AD, my high level tech plan went like this:

Construction (to allow REX by conquest)
Education for Oxford
Economics branch for Mercantilism (GPs) and commerce infrastructure
Medicine from Liberalism. Critical for health to go with my happies from HR.
Side detour to Democracy for Statue of Liberty (more GPs)
Computers for Labs (maybe this should have been later)
Assembly Line for Factories
Plastics for 3 Gorges
Rocketry for Apollo
Robotics for Space Elevator
Yada yada

Wars and Expansion

I had two worker steal wars, one of which yielded a city when I found it lightly defended. As noted, Monty 2 DOW'd me before 1 AD.
In 1090 AD I started war in earnest using maces and cats. I attacked Monty 2 (NE) and captured 8 cities. In 1530, Monty 2 was gone.
After a pause to shore up my economy, in 1814 I DOWd on Monty 3 (SE). I attacked him with Grens, Maces, and Cats. Captured 11 cities and eliminated him in 1866 AD.
Throughout this period, I also founded some more cities along rivers. I ended up with 29 cities (until late in the game).
Once I realized how late in the game I was going to be playing, I founded some late cities to milk my score. Who knows, maybe I will win a cow!

Diplo

I switched to Confus very early so nobody liked me. However, building a lot of MPs for happies kept my power rating up.
Monty 1 and 4 were in WHEEOHRN mode from very early on. They stayed this way for a long time, I suppose it kept them from attacking me. Once I switched to Free Religion and opened borders with them, they both immediately sent stacks through my lands and went to war with each other.

What worked

I think beeline to Medicine was critical. With unlimited happies from Monarchy and 9 health from Medicine, I was able to build big cities.
I did some good macro-level specialization. Cities from Monty 2 (NE) were converted into commerce. Lots of chopping for infrastructure, lots of cottages. Once I had my research engine humming, I went after Monty 3s cities (SE). His part of the world became my production arm. I mostly slow built factories and labs in these cities, keeping all the trees for chopping Apollo, SE, 3 Gorges and parts.
Because of lack of coal and uranium, I decided to head to 3 gorges early for power. I also decided to head to Robotics before Fusion so I could build Space Elevator. Normally you try to get the engine started first, but I knew that my research would be ahead of completing Apollo. Even with the diversion for space elevator, I was able to research fusion before Apollo.
I made a point of mining every hill. Eventually I ended up with 2 golds, 2 gems, 2 coppers, 2 horses. And best of all, late in the game Aluminum showed up. It came too late to help me build space elevator and Apollo, but it did allow me to finish my parts sooner.
I did pretty well with GPs (given the lack of food). I think I had 9 GSs (Gr Lib helped), 1 GP for a shrine, 2 GEs (one from Fusion) and the GM from Econimics. A couple of the early GSs were settled in Washington. I cant remember what I did with the Merchant, probably bulbed with him. One engineer was used on Space Elevator, the other was used for a GA during my parts building phase.

What could have been better

In hindsight, I probably should have cottaged Washington. Maybe not from the start, but certainly after I had finished taking Monty 2s cities.
It took me forever to build/chop Apollo. I should have moved it higher in my research queue.
If I had known Aluminum was going to show up, I would have taken my GA earlier to speed up the building of Apollo, Space Elevator, and 3 Gorges (all were being built at the same time).

Results:

Very enjoyable game, forced some out of the box thinking. Well done Neil.
Space win in 1975 AD. What an amazingly slow time!

GOTM 87 - Final Spoiler

neilmeister

Lentils have feelings too