GOTM117 - First Spoiler

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GOTM 117 - First spoiler, Persia, the Ancient Age



Reading Requirements:

  1. Must be able to research a Middle Ages Technology.

Posting restrictions

  1. Feel free to discuss distant contacts and trades, but be discreet about locations or directions of any AI.
  2. No discussion of middle-ages (or later) including resource locations.
  3. AS ALWAYS, do not post Spoiler information for ANY other 'X'OTM contest.


Regent level, and a decent starting position. (Well, you're not the only one! :) ) Did you decide to move and found somewhere else, or did you take the starting spot? How did the contacts go and are any of the other AI on your starting landmass giving you any competition? Going into the Middle Ages, do you feel you are in command?
 
Whoo, first ever GOTM for me, and I like where I am so far. I moved the capital 1E onto the grassland, and immediately went for the improvements around me. Popped a worker the the goody hut up north, which was a bonus. Spammed some settlers/warrior combos for a while, and built Pasargadae on the coast SW of the fish and NW and W of the double wheat. Also built Susa in the middle, 1E of the gold. Then stuck Arbela next to the gems, and Gordium to its east, with Sidon south of that. At that point, I had met Egypt, India, and China. India and China were ahead, Egypt behind. Egypt was beginning to crowd me out, and at this point I had IW, which was great, because my only iron appeared on the hill I started on! I roaded and mined it quickly, and began churning out Immortals. DOW'd Egpyt, and quickly took 'em out. Then I thought, "Hey, I'll make this a conquest game," and now I'm currently taking out India, with China in my scope.
Just took out Delhi. They had one spearman defending it! Then had a settler and three workers! So very nice capture there. I think they were totally unprepared, and I think China will be pretty easy as well.
 
I decided to settle in place but this was clearly not the best option. Still, it was not bad. No 4 turn SF for me! Even so, expansion was easy. I made the mistake of scouting to the south before the north as well.

Once again I think we see the damage the barbs can do to the AI at lower levels. The AI were hopeless pillaged on both continents and never really stood a chance. I had bad GH luck and I had a bit of a chess game going on with the southern barbs I popped in 3450BC and the hampers my important exploration in the south. :rolleyes:

I start a prebuild for the GLH in 2630BC, going straight for MM. Make contact with Egypt, India and China by 1000 BC.

QSC – 9 cities, 22 citizens, 1 granary, 9 turns until GLH builds. 1 settler, 7 workers, 1 slave, 11 warriors, 3 galleys, 1 Immortal. Know Egypt, India, China, Embassy with Egypt & India. Know all 1st tier techs, IW, Writing, Myst, Phil, MM, HBR. CoL due in 1t.

Build the GLH in 800 BC and start looking for the other Civs. 2nd Galley survives its crossing in 710 BC and a round of trades nets we everything the AI has though no one knows were Carthage is located. I’m unlucky with my boats thereafter and a few sink, delaying my meeting with Carthage until 510 BC.

550 BC – learn republic and revolt and draw 2 turns! :woohoo:

DOW on Egypt in 450 BC but it starts off poorly. I immediately lose two Immortals to spears in small cities on flat ground. I managed to score a kill, however, and start my GA.

370 BC – enter MA.

Overall impression – I don’t know about immortals. :dunno: Though I would eventually use them for most of my conquests I often found my mix of horses to be more effective. The horses often won against spears and retreated just as often if they didn’t. Immortals seems to drop like flies.

Turn Log
Spoiler :
4000 BC – Move worker to cow. Found in place. Start warrior for scouting. Pottery at 100%, due in 12t.
3950 BC – worker #1 - Irrigate
3850 BC – worker #1 - Road
3800 BC – Warrior #1=>barracks (granary pre-build). Warrior #1 – E
3750 BC – Worker to FP. Warrior SE.
3700 BC – Warrior SE to mountain - see game that would make a SF if I had moved the capital.
3650 BC – Warrior SW.
3600 BC – Warrior SW.
3550 BC – Warrior W to mountain. See GH1.
3500 BC – boarder pop. Worker #1 to BG. Warrior S to GH1.
3450 BC – Worker #1 Mine. Warrior #1 to GH1=3 angry warriors. See gems.
IBT – barbs move away from capital.
3400 BC – Warrior N to attack barb – win, -1hp. Learn pottery, start Alpha.
3350 BC – lux to 10%. Warrior N to mountain – barb pursue.
3300 BC – barbs are still moving towards Persepolis.
IBT – barbs spread out.
3250 BC – fortify warrior in forest.
IBT – barb runs away.
3200 BC – stay fortified. Worker to plain by river to irrigate.
IBT – warrior flawlessly kills barb. Things are looking up.
3150 BC – Worker irrigates. Warrior SE.
IBT – barb runs away.
3100 BC – warrior SW to pursue barb. Lux to 20%.
3050 BC – Granary builds, start settler. Move warrior to intercept barb again.
3000 BC – keep dancing with barb.
2950 BC – worker to grass by river. Warrior forts.
2900 BC – Barb runs away again. Send warrior back to Persepolis to fort.
2850 BC – Disease kills a citizen. Grrr. Lux 10%, Science 80%. Alpha due in 4t @ 0gpt.
2800 BC – Settler #1.
2710 BC – second city down. Building warriors in both cities. Settling RCP4.
2670 BC – Warrior #2 heads down south.
2630 BC – flip Pasargadae to Colossus as a prebuild for GLH. I have a feeling I’m going to need it this game.
2590 BC – learn alpha, start writing at max, due in 20t @ -1gpt.
2550 BC – Warrior #3 goes north.
2510 BC – Warrior #3 sees GH2
2470 BC – Change pers off settler. Warrior #3 to GH2=25gp. Pers back to settler. The 25gp is actually nice so I can continue deficit research.
2350 BC – find cow & fish. Nice. That will be city #3. Sending settler.
2270 BC – Warrior #4 builds. Warrior #3 dies to barb.
2190 BC – 2nd worker produced.
IBT – Warrior #4 kills wandering barb and continues to explore south.
2110 BC – Warrior #4 finds another barb.
2070 BC – miss riot at Persepolis. Grr.
1950 BC – settler #3
1910 BC – find southern end of the island.
IBT – two barbs die upon axes.
1870 BC – new Warrior #3 produced. Disperse barb camp in the south for 25gp.
1830 BC – 4th city down. Learn Writing, go to MM due in 18t @ -1gpt.
1525 BC – I can see yellow borders.
1500 BC – find GH3.
1475 BC – GH3=3 angry barbs.
1425 BC – 6th city down. Moving warriors towards yellow border.
1400 BC – meet Egypt. Trade Alpha for CB & 4gp. Give them writing for contact with India and 6gp. Give India Writing for worker & 10gp. I can get everything they’ve got for MM – IW, TW, WC & WM. India has myst on top of it all. As I want to push the tech pace, I make the deal all around. Egypt gets the first trade. India receives MM for myst. India is about the same size as me while Egypt is already lagging. My steal of India’s worker will put them behind, however. Phil set for 7t @ -1gp.
No iron but I see horses and I’m almost on top of it. Take that back, Persepolis is on top of iron!
Still heading for GLH.
1350 BC – abort a worker’s action by mistake, waste a turn.
1325 BC – Collect 25gp from barb camp.
1250 BC – Cities 7&8 down.
1225 BC – Phil. Start CoL due in 10t @ -1gpt.
1200 BC – Give Egypt Phil for HBR, WM & 50gp. Egypt gets an embassy for 31gp. Thebes is building the pyramids. Good luck Cleo! 5 pop, 8spt, no resources or lux connected. India also gets a embassy for 41gp – Delhi is also building the pyramids, 5 pop, 9spt, no resources or lux connected.
1150 BC – first galley out and scouting. First Immortal created. Send towards Egypt.
1125 BC – 9th city down on 2 wheat + fish.
1075 BC – Meet China. They have zip for knowledge and are being raided by barbs. Give them Alpha for 14gp.
1025 BC – India has math.

QSC – 9 cities, 22 citizens, 1 granary, 9 turns until GLH builds. 1 settler, 7 workers, 1 slave, 11 warriors, 3 galleys, 1 Immortal. Know Egypt, India, China, Embassy with Egypt & India. Know all 1st tier techs, IW, Writing, Myst, Phil, MM, HBR. CoL due in 1t.

975 BC – CoL, start long haul to Republic due in 27 @ -2gpt. Give China Writing for WM & 65gp. India receives CoL for Math, TM & 17gp. Give Egypt contact with China for WM & 33gp. Give China contact with India for 10gp. They were going to meet anyway.
950 BC – connect gems.
825 BC – find GH4. India has lit.
800 BC – build GLH.
750 BC – GH4=Literature. Dang. First galley sees land across the sea.
730 BC Galley sinks.
710 BC – 2nd Galley survives crossing. Meet Vikings. They have all sorts of interesting stuff to trade. Gain contact with the Germans for Math. Give Germany Phil for contact with Russia and 20gp. Russia has only gold. Only Carthage is missing. Go back to Vikings and give them Phil and CoL for Poly. Go to Russia and get TM & 60gp for Math (Germany will only give me 9gp for it, they must be close). Vikings give 68gp & WM for Lit. Give Gemany Lit & math for 95gp.
Now I just need to find Carthage.
650 BC – Give Cleo Math for MW & 50gp. Give India poly for WM & 78gp. I’m pretty sure I know where Carthage is located but my galleys keep sinking.
610 BC – Egypt finished the pyramids. How nice of Cleo! Germany finishes the GLB.
570 BC – India finishes the Oracle. China receives math for a worker.
550 BC – Learn republic & revolt – draw a 2 turn anarchy!
510 BC – Persia is a republic. Meet Carthage and we have a full set now. Give them math for WM & 18gp.
490 BC – Gamble doesn’t pay off – India pulls Currency first. Should have gone for Construction. Swap to Construction. Give India Republic for Currency, WM & 18gp. China receives Lit & Phil for WM, 1gp & worker. Germany needs Currency so they get it for WM & 72gp. Start Construction due in 7t @ -20gpt.
450 BC – time to get those Pyramids. DOW on Cleo. 5/5 immortal vs 3/3 spear – flawless win, trigger GA.
430 BC – Battle for Pi- Ramesses – 3/3 Immortal vs 3/3 spear – lose, -1hp. 4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 spear – lose. Hmm. Not a good start.
Battle for Memphis – Cat misses. 5/5 Immortal vs 3/3 spear – win, -3hp. Destroy Memphis. Rush more military to the warfront.
IBT – 3/3 horse retreats flawlessly from 3/3 Immortal.
410 BC – 3/3 Immortal vs 1/3 horse – flawless win, promote vet. Give Vikings Currency for WM & 43gp.
390 BC – cat hits a spear. 4/4 Immortal vs 2/3 spear – flawless win.

 
swordsman_small.gif



Settled in place, build order is warrior -> settler -> barracks (as a prebuild for granary); as i didn't have to build immediately a granary, i researched Alphabet first, and popped Pottery from a hut later. Besides that, research was the usual beeline to Republic, with Map Making and Literature in-between and Code of Laws purchased from the AS.

Persepolis was used as a settler/worker pump for the whole AA. Cities were built at RCP 4. Despite the off-center location, it was possible to build a nice ring of 5 productive cities around the capital and a partial second ring at distance 7, only mildly corrupted.

Barbs were more an asset rather than a problem, providing both gold and training grounds for regular warriors first and veteran immortals later.

Egypt was met very early and India later on. Once Writing was researched i bought contact with China and achieved tech parity, including Iron Working. With iron right under our butts in Persepolis, immortal buildup could start immediately.

Once Map Making is researched, one galley is sent to the mainland with a settler to seize control of dyes and two are sent circumnavigating the continent in opposite directions. No safe route to the other landmass is found. By 1000 BC, exploration is over and i'm about to sent the 2 galleys on a suicide route on the ocean.

QSC is hit with 9 cities, 25 population units and an army consisting of 8 workers, 7 warriors, 5 galleys and 9 immortals. We lack Math, Poly, Construction and Currency are we are 11 turns away from Republic:

attachment.php


Soon after the suicide mission is sent abroad. One galley is sunk but the other one manages to reach the shores of the far continent and makes a contact. I get full maps, trade the bare minimum and do NOT sell contacts across the continents. The surviving boat continues to explore the coastline but is later killed by a barb galley.

As i plant embassies around, a clear picture emerges: everybody who counts something is busy building the Pyramids. India is to complete it first, with Egypt coming close second. An idea comes to my mind: if i let India complete the Pyramids and Egypt cascades to the Great Library, then all that i need to trigger my golden age is to capture those two wonders and build a third wonder at my will. The ideal situation would be to obtain 3 leaders: one to build the Forbidden Palace in the mainland, one to jump the capital to the center of Indian territory and the 3rd one to rush Sun Tzu somewhere and start the golden age.

It is a tempting scenario and i decide to pursue it. Therefore, Egypt and India are left alone for the moment and i go for the most distant target, China. The town founded to hook dyes becomes the near end of a chain of towns that extends right at the doors of Beijing:

attachment.php


Meanwhile, Republic is researched in 730 bc and established after 5 turns of anarchy, India completes Pyramids, the Vikings cascade to the Great Lighthouse and everyone else cascade to the Great Library, with Egypt ahead of everyone :D

War against China is declared in 550 bc. Beijing falls next turn and the rest of the Chinese territory is quickly overrun. I went elite fishing, attacking only with veterans and keeping any promoted unit out of the fight for the time being. A few elite immortals are obtained.

While i'm still at war, Thebes completes the Great Library and war with Egypt may begin. Once again, i go elite fishing by using veterans only and net a few more elite immortals. China is gone in 330 bc. The GL in Thebes is captured and the rest of Egyptian cities fall one after another. Meanwhile, i research Currency, get Construction from the GL and complete the last AA tech, Polytheism, in 210 bc, netting Monotheism as scientific bonus. Germany and Russia are sold to the MA and draw the remaining 1st tier techs.

The dawn of Middle Ages looks favourable. Pyramids and Great Library are virtually secured and with a dozen elite immortals at my avail, the upcoming leader fishing has good chances to succeed. The plan for the future is: seize the whole continent, research up to Navigation (it shouldn't take long if i manage to start the golden age at the right moment) and, of course, take over everything.


tech log:

4000bc: Masonry (prerequisite);
2950bc: Alphabet (research); Bronze, Ceremonial Burial (trade, Egypt);
2900bc: Pottery (goody hut);
2150bc: Writing (research); Wheel (trade, India); Iron Working (trade, China); War Code (trade, Egypt);
1575bc: Map Making (research); Horse Riding (trade, China);
1325bc: Literature (research);
1200bc: Philosophy (research); Mysticism (trade, Egypt); Code of Laws (trade, China);
_730bc: Republic (research);
_690bc: Mathematics (trade, Russia);
_350bc: Currency (research);
_270bc: Construction (Great Library);
_210bc: Polytheism (research); Monotheism (scientific bonus);

cities till QSC:

4000bc: Persepolis
3100bc: Pasagardae
2230bc: Susa
1910bc: Arbela
1675bc: Antioch
1525bc: Tarsus
1375bc: Gordium (gems)
1225bc: Bactra (dyes);
1050bc: Sidon;


meetings:

3350bc: Egypt;
2230bc: India;
2150bc: China;
_825bc: Russia, Germany, Scandinavia;
_710bc: Carthage;
 

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QSC
10 cities (1 from egypt), 28 pop, 112 tiles, research rep in 11t

800bc in Rep

775bc Egypt build The Oracle in Thebes

470bc China build The Pyramids in Beijing

270bc take Anyang and Beijing with Pyras
take Pi-Ramesses and started golden age

enter MA in 190bc
very late, but i will go for a 100k win
 
Open, going for another science game.

I settled in place and decided on RCP 3 (10% corruption & waste in republic), so that I could plant a town on the island to the west. The second ring was at RCP 6 (33% c & w).

I popped a worker to the south, who instantly started working on a road to the gems. The fourth town was placed on top of the nearest gems and gave some good commerce.

After Writing I went straight for Literature and had my first libraries in 1750 BC. It was unfortunate that I couldn't trade for Alphabet (I too started exploring southwards) and I suffered another setback in 1000 BC when out of the blue Nidaros completed Colossus, which I was 3 turns from finishing.

Entered MA in 690 BC, at which date I also started my golden age while laying claim to the northern Egyptian ivory. I lost 3 of my 9 immortals capturing Alexandria, but none capturing Memphis. The future will depend on whether I can get a good FP location. I don't think I will flip the palace - this is easier in a military game where the capital has only barracks and at most barracks and a library - so I need a leader.
 
Open, going for another science game.

Great, I'm going for space. Hope to get time to write a spoiler real soon.

Golden Age triggered by Immortal, huh? I play Predator and could use mine without that (for a science game) troublesome side-effect.
 
Più Freddo;11079147 said:
Great, I'm going for space. Hope to get time to write a spoiler real soon.

Golden Age triggered by Immortal, huh? I play Predator and could use mine without that (for a science game) troublesome side-effect.
I don't see why an early MA golden age should be such a bad thing, although it is partly a shot in the dark. Often, the early MA techs are the most expensive ones of all, measured in real cost, excepting of course the very first techs like Alphabet and Writing. Education is pretty close, yes, but Astronomy is very expensive even with unis.

When it comes to shields, the sore need for them usually evaporates in the early IA, while in the MA immortals, unis, aqueducts and maybe even marketplaces are useful.

Of course, I will be dependent on a favorable development later, so as not to get bogged down with Chemistry and the early IA techs and that's why I'm calling it a shot in the dark.

There is no way I'm going for space. Only 7-8 days left and I will be hard pressed to finish at all. Sorry, I hope you change your mind and go for diplo too.
 
I don't see why an early MA golden age should be such a bad thing, although it is partly a shot in the dark.
(snip)

You're assuming that you won't be using immortals until the early MA (that is, awfully late :p)
 
690 BC, very late? I'm playing a science game, my friend. And, well, I have used them against barbs, as MPs and there have been no AI towns worth capturing anyway.
 
Ok, there was one town across the water at distance 6, but between my research of republic and the end of the AA there were only 15 turns and even if I had given Egypt republic during that interval there is a great risk I would have had to raze it. Now it has cultural expansion... :splat:
 
I don't see why an early MA golden age should be such a bad thing

Maybe you're right. I generally find that all MA technologies can be researched in four turns using a normally developing empire, even if you head for Astronomy before taking on the lower branch. The beginning of the IA, on the other hand, is very hard, and perhaps you'll want to go deep towards Replaceable Parts there as well.

What really settles your finish date in a science game is
  • how many technologies you can trade for and/or get as bonus
  • how fast you research the inevitably slow handful of early technologies up to The Republic

But perhaps if you want to maximize your score getting more of a military out in the early MA will pay off.
 
Più Freddo;11079631 said:
  • how many technologies you can trade for and/or get as bonus
  • how fast you research the inevitably slow handful of early technologies up to The Republic

I took a look in my notes, and Megalou beats me, probably on both counts: I discovered The Republic in 875 BC, got four turns of Anarchy, then spent three additional turns on Mathematics and four each on Construction, Currency and Polytheism to enter the Middle Ages in 470 BC, eleven turns later than Megalou.
 
Più Freddo;11079668 said:
I took a look in my notes, and Megalou beats me, probably on both counts: I discovered The Republic in 875 BC, got four turns of Anarchy, then spent three additional turns on Mathematics and four each on Construction, Currency and Polytheism to enter the Middle Ages in 470 BC, eleven turns later than Megalou.
If, upon this narrow bank and shoal of time and place, you do every MA tech in 4 turns, an 11 turn head start will probably be a bit like an 11 meter head start on Usain Bolt in a 200 meter race. You are a notoriously skilled starter, so I expect you have the edge in development, about 20 size 1-2 towns waiting to explode, I should guess, and progress towards FP and/or palace flip.

I checked and saw that I also had to research Mathematics and Polytheism. But I was able to trade HB just before I did Construction. I got republic in 1175 and had a 3 turn anarchy on the first roll. I can't quite see where the 11 turns came from. Maybe I built fewer workers which again supports my Usain Bolt theory. I had 13 workers and 3-4 slaves in 690 BC, but only 8 native workers in 1000 BC. I remember working quite a few tiles with only roads for commerce and no mines for shields. I even intermittently worked one jungle gems in the south.

Did you do Literature before Republic and prebuild libraries? I imagine so.

I might as well post a 690 map. I couldn't fit in my newly accquired ivory town, though:
 

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Only 7-8 days left and I will be hard pressed to finish at all. Sorry, I hope you change your mind and go for diplo too.

You are right, it's getting close. Prolly won't finish on time at all, not even with Diplo. And I don't even know how to make the other tribes vote for you. Ally all the small ones against the big one, is that right?
 
yes, that is the way that cannot go wrong.

t_x
 
I'm debating whether to go to a party or give this a final go. I do find diplomacy+maximum expansion to be an interesting and challenging way to go. Since you don't exactly befriend the AIs at whose expense you're expanding, it can be quite tricky to get the sufficient number of votes, because I don't think that a civ that you have mangled down to one town will vote for you even if you butter them up and ally them against your competitor in the election. At any rate, you can't use the basic domination formula to the fullest unless you can get out of this program:
10 TAKE towns
20 IF towns=0 THEN QUIT
30 DEMAND towns
40 PAUSE
50 GOTO 10

So it really comes down to a kind of diplo+dom+conquest, although you must leave enough civs left to get the vote (2). I'm not very good at it, but perhaps that's why I'm still playing....
 
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