GOTM130 Carthage - First Spoiler - No Longer Despotic

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GOTM130 Carthage - First Spoiler - No Longer Despotic

Welcome to the first spoiler for this Carthaginian game.
For this game please do not read down this thread or post in this thread until you have played the game to the point at which you have changed government.

Please keep maps confined to the local area, and do not show mini-maps.
Judicious use of spoiler tags is always appreciated.

So... how is it going?
 
No spoilers at all yet? That's kind of depressing. If no people bother to post spoilers, what are the chances that somebody would get interested in the competition and decide to join in? :/

I moved the settler W toward the "coast" and saw what's really there. Now the first thing that should come in mind is to settle there and have the worker improve the two bonus tiles to set up a 4-turner, but then i figured out something.

This is what i see after the settler move:

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By moving the settler again NE i would be able to build 2 cities at RCP 4 on the shores of the lake. I can still have them if i settle where i am now, but they would be at RCP 3, and RCP 3 for some reason just doesn't seem right to me in this map.

However, my previous calculations on how to set up a 4-turner webt astray and i had to start anew, but this new scenario isn't easy at all. My goal is to have the 4-turner set up fast, with no shield loss, and to have it operational without wasting turns, but apparently no initial set of moves seems to allow that.

Eventually i found out the right ouverture, which involves something quite counterintuitive: the worker doesn't move immediately toward one of the bonuses, but starts by mining and roading the BG where it is now. As strange as it may seem, this is exactly what i was looking for. I'm including the initial set of moves to show how this apparent nonsense ends up working perfectly:

4000bc: settler W; mumble mumble mumble.... after lots of mumbles and lots of scribbling, worker mines;
3950bc: settler NE;
3900bc: founded Carthage (Pyramids); max research on Pottery; AT is the BG being mined;
3850bc: worker roads;
3800bc: ...
3750bc: worker NW-W;
3700bc: worker roads; irrigating first is usually better, but not this time;
3650bc: ...
3600bc: worker irrigates; AT is moo;
3550bc: ...
3500bc: worker SE;

3450bc: worker S; spending 3.7.0;
* 5 spt now, 29 shields produced, 31 missing;

3400bc: Pottery -> Writing (max); worker irrigates; Carthage turns to granary;
* ATs do not change, they are still moo and improved BG;

3350bc: ATs change: now they are moo and wheat;
* 3 spt, 39 shields produced, 21 missing;
* still looking odd, doesn't it? but see what happens in the following turns

3300bc: worker roads;

3250bc: ...
* 5 spt, and not 3, thanks to pop growth in the interturn; 45 shields produced, 15 missing;
* that means, granary produced in 3 turns with zero shields wasted
* and it's not over yet, a piece of the puzzle still needs to fit in

3200bc: worker NE; spending 0.9.1;
* 5 spt, granary due in 2 turns and growth to size 4 due in 4 turns;

3150bc: worker roads;

3100bc: Carthage granary -> warrior;
* this is the final piece, not immediately a settler but a warrior first
* a settler would be due in 5 turns instead of 4, and this would break the shields/growth pattern

3050bc: worker E;

3000bc: Carthage war -> settler; worker mines; AT4 is SEx2;
* Carthage size 4, 5 fpt, growth in 2;
* Carthage spt will be 6-7-8-9, 30 shields in total, exactly the amount needed for a settler


And here's the final result:

attachment.php


After 20 moves the settler factory is built and operational, with no shields lost and no turns to wait. It took a lot to solve this riddle, but it was also fun.

The rest of the spoiler will be posted soon.
 

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City 2 was placed Ex2-SE, exploiting a second wheat tile. City 3 found its place S-SWx3, on the shores of the lake near a 2nd cow. City 4 was placed NEx3-E, hooking up both silks and a 3rd cow. The RCP 4 proved to be extremely powerful, with all the cities quite productive and all but one near fresh waters.

Research went the usual way: Pottery -> Writing -> Maps, all at max. Pretty soon i realize the enormous potential of this location: a bonanza of assorted food bonuses, production and gold.

I sent a few warriors to explore the surrounding areas but somehow they always managed to take the wrong direction. I met Germany only in 2230 BC, Greece in 1625 BC and the other four AS in the same landmass shortly after. As expected, all of them were in a hopelessly backward state. Hut picking wasn't encouraging either: only barbs except for a single instance of a conscript warrior.

Map Making was known in 1830 BC. When, a few turns after, i laid out the 1st galley, it soon become clear that it was trapped in an inner sea -.- I proceeded toward Republic and when i saw that i could complete Philosophy in only 4 turns i decided that this map was worth a good science run. Later on i picked the first useful hut and obtained Mathematics.

Republic was known in 1175 BC. I revolted immediately, draw 6 turns of anarchy and rerolled for 3 turns. By then, i was already assembling an army of swords to take over Rome and, finally, get out of that stinking inner sea. In 1100 BC Carthage becomes a Republic, with a fleet of galleys ready to unload their deadly cargo on the shores of Rome.

At this point of the game the Carthaginian state owns 14 cities, 42 pop units and an army of 9 workers, 7 warriors, 8 swords, 3 galleys and one merc. Here's how my empire looks like:

attachment.php


My short-term plan is to take over Rome and leave alone the other AS until the Middle Ages are reached, in order to benefit to the maximum extent from their scientific free picks. Once done that, i'll pick on Germany, Greece and France. Korea and Babylon won't be attacked.

The city on the western coast will hand-build the Great Lighthouse, and the Golden Age will be started at the early medievals with a merc. Carthage's ring is so well placed that moving the capital isn't worth it, better build a dedicated city in the center of the French territory and rushbuild the Forbidden Palace there.

The long term goal is a science run, but i won't neglect the military of course. Actually, the location is so powerful that it should be possible to perform a military expansion up to the vicinity of the domination limit and, at the same time, pursue an early scientific victory. How and if this plan worked is matter of the final spoiler.

Here are the logs up to 1100 BC:


Techs:

4000bc: Alphabet, Masonry (prerequisite)
3400bc: Pottery (research)
2390bc: Writing (research)
2230bc: Wheel, Bronze Working (trade, Germany)
1990bc: Iron Working (trade, Germany)
1830bc: Map Making (research); Ceremonial Burial, Warrior Code (trade, Germany)
1625bc: Code of Laws (research)
1550bc: Mysticism (trade, Babylon)
1525bc: Philosophy (research); Horse Riding (trade, Germany)
1475bc: Literature (trade, Rome)
1450bc: Mathematics (hut)
1175bc: Republic (research)


Cities:

3900bc: Carthage
2710bc: Utica
2550bc: Leptis Magna
2270bc: Theveste (silks)
2150bc: Hippo

1870bc: Leptis Minor (ivory)
1830bc: Sabratha
1700bc: Rusicade
1525bc: Oea
1500bc: Hadrumetum

1425bc: Cadiz
1400bc: Cirta
1300bc: Nora
1175bc: Rusaddir


Meetings:

2230bc: Germany
1625bc: Greece
1550bc: Rome, Babylon, Korea
1475bc: France
 

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tR1cKy, quite amazing, especially how you could feel that RCP4 would fit the map so well. I, of course, settled at the Lake shore and built RCP3, which turned up to be quite crammed, between the rivers and away from the Luxuries.

My first ten cities were earlier than yours, but then you overtook me, so apparently your second Settler factory was set up faster than mine. I also build a Worker factory.

I met the local competition later than you, partly because of not building any Warrior at all in the Capital.

I also enjoy quite fast research, but there's no way I'll have the time to finish a research game, so I'll go for domination, I guess.
 
Wouldn't some cities follow RCP4 and others RCP4.5? For example: Utica is RCP4 while Leptis Manga is 4.5 according to this. Looks like a great start anyway.

Edit: Nevermind, I just learned that it doesn't matter when trying to reduce corruption because:
Distance = floor(max(x,y) + 0.5*min(x,y)), where x and y are the distance in the NW/SE and NE/SW respectively. (Formula discovered by DaviddesJ, rounding discovered by Qitai)

The thread where I was reading about Ring City Placement (RCP) didn't add the 'floor' part in the formula.
 
Thank you all! Alas, it looks like none of you guys had enough time to complete a game. I wish you better luck for the next one.

As the final spoiler thread never materialized, i'll sum up briefly what happened next.

Got a very early leader during the Roman campaign, which i used to rush the Pyramids in Rome. With such a setup, the Pyramids are a tremendous asset, simply too good to be missed.

The game proceeded as planned. I got into the MA, raked all the 1st tier techs, then went to take down Germany, Greece and then France. Golden Age was triggered by a merc victory in the early medievals.

Meanwhile, i finally got out of the inner sea and met Japan and Zululand. While expanding into the mainland i got two more leaders; one was used for Sun Tzu in Athens, and with the other i rushed the FP in a new city at RCP 4 from Paris. A few french cities were moved to fit in the scheme.

I built the Great Lighthouse by bare hands and did the same with Copernicus. Other wonders were Newton's, Bach's and Theory of Evolution, rushed with leaders, and the Hoover Dam, built with bare hands.

Next on the kill list were Japan and Zululand, then it was time to assess some of the pukes on the far continent. I took down China, India, America and finally the Iroquois. I decided to leave Scandinavia alone because, as the game progressed, both Korea and Babylon were becoming more and more angry at me, so i thought i'd better keep another friendly AS around to help with the UN elections.

On the research ground, the AS were basically worthless. Taking aside the scientific free picks, they provived only one tech in the Medievals (Invention) and none, not even Rep Parts, in the Industrial. However, my two cores were so powerful that i could substain 4-turn research for most of the Medievals and for the whole Industrials, and with 70% research or less, so i could spend quite a lot of money in rushing military, settlers and improvements.

I lost one turn in the completition of the UN because of a pollution event that causes me to be one single shield short of building the Hoover Dam.

When the UN elections took place, i was about 130 tiles short of the domination limit and with a population way above the treshold. I signed ROP+MPP with everyone, but even so both Babylon and Korea remained furious and Persia didn't raise above cautious. As expected, Korea voted for Babylon but Persia surprisingly voted for me rather than abstaining. Ottomans and Scandinavia also voted for me, so i won the elections by 4-2.

The end result is a Diplomatic victory in 810 AD, with 7493 Firaxis and 11114 Jasons.
 
Apologies for not posting a second spoiler thread. No excuses. Simply nobody had posted until you and then there were only a couple of days left. Seemed pointless.
 
Più Freddo;13023032 said:
Defeatism will bring this competition down.

I have to second that. We need to encourage people to partecipate. If the spoiler thread doesn't even show up, hardly anyone will bother posting spoilers, do they? The thread needs to be there, and even if it ends up empty, well so be it, at least we tried.

Now, a few words to the other 10 submitters. The staff people spend some of their free unpaid time to bring up these competitions for us. Please consider the idea of giving back some of your time in return. Even a few minutes for a quick summary on how you played is still better than nothing.
 
I've just recently finished grad school, so I'll do my best to cobble together some reports for the forthcoming games since I should, theoretically, have some spare time now. Over the last few years it has been a struggle just to complete a few games here and there.

Obviously this competition will never return to it's zenith, but it would be fun to have some strategic conversation between those who are left. I started taking part in this competition over a decade ago (under a different name), and it is amazing how this game is still drawing me back.

As for this game in particular, I went the Diplomatic route but missed my chances to be aggressive early and later suffered some terrible leader luck and thus never ended up getting a true second core set up. That definitely hurt my research speed and the AI was useless aside from the free scientific techs. It ended up being a post 1000AD victory, I forget the exact year.

I look forward to a fun space race in the next game...definitely up my alley!
 
I also settled by the lake, but went for RCP4. This resulted in a somewhat awkward city placement with regard to rivers and lakes. I must say that I briefly considered moving back with the initial settler and looking at what tricky did, that might have been the better decision.

Cities:

3900bc: Carthage
2710bc: Utica
2550bc: Leptis Magna
2270bc: Theveste (silks)
2150bc: Hippo

1870bc: Leptis Minor (ivory)
1830bc: Sabratha
1700bc: Rusicade
1525bc: Oea
1500bc: Hadrumetum

1425bc: Cadiz
1400bc: Cirta
1300bc: Nora
1175bc: Rusaddir

Here how this worked out for my RCP4:
3950bc: Carthage
2710bc: Utica
2510bc: Leptis Magna (silks)
2350bc: Theveste (ivory)
2190bc: Hippo
2070bc: Leptis Minor
1910bc: Sabratha
1700bc: Rusicade
1625bc: Oea
1500bc: Hadrumetum
1375bc: Cadiz
1375bc: Cirta
1325bc: Nora
1200bc: Rusaddir

I also went for a science game, had some luck with an early leader against Greece that built the Palace in Sparta (Foreign palace built in Carthage). Then it was four turn research for almost the complete MA, IA and MoA.

Here is the result:
Entry class: Open
Game status: Spaceship Victory for Carthage
Game date: 1070 AD
Firaxis score: 5140
Jason score: 9377
Time played: 25:22:07
 
While looking at your screenshot in post #3, I subconsciously pressed Ctrl-G several times, until I realized it's only a screenshot... :crazyeye:

Questions:
a) in a science game, why did you take out Germany and Greece?! Didn't that reduce your chances of getting more different freebees?
b) is it necessary to arrange RCP around the FP? I think I read somewhere, that it doesn't make a difference for the FP, but I'm never sure about it.
 
Around the FP, cities can be closer to the centre than ring placement would recommend. The definition of nearer/closer to is made only around the Palace.
 
L :D L

Taking down scientific civs is basically a tradeoff: need of space vs. help in research.

In this scenario, i let Greece and Germany live until the MA (to get their freebies) and then took them down, while i kept Babylon and Korea intact for the time being. The rationale was that Germany and Greece were in such a bad shape that they couldn't be possibly of any help in research. Moreover, they were on my way on the expansion phase.

For the successive freebie picks i was confident to meet Ottomans and Persia on the far continent and then fish their techs. Now, on second thought, i think i could have let Germany and Greece live until the beginning on the Industrials as OCCs somewhere, such as in the southern SE island. That would have raised my chance to pick all the freebies.
 
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