Gotm17-Carthage Pregame Discussion

[cracker]

Originally posted by pterrok
I'm 33rd--but so is Eman above me--which must mean I'm 34th and the liist needs reworking. That's WAY better than I really am, but I guess since I've played the games and submitted the QSCs it's added up...

Your exactly right pterrok, the games begin to add up in your favor when you play games on a regular basis. Players who play really well and score high will still be able stay in the top of the ranking even with only one or two games occasionally. Eman is a good example in that he has not played any games for about 6 months but jumps right back into the top 10% just by playing a good game.

On the issue of two #33's just trust me that it will sort itself out in the next week to 10 days when we start adding in the Gotm16 results. From time to time you will see us insert someone into the globale ranking at the appropriate place. This is done to provide quick fixes to procedural or technical glitches where one player may get inadvertently missed ir placed in the wrong position.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by cracker
Moonsinger,

That preferenc only applies to the availability of the "Mace and Rambo" units (Medieval Infantry and Guerrilla) that were added in PTW. These two units effectively eliminate the need to make some of the tougher early strategy choices by making it possible to upgrade all warriors, swordsmen, archers, and longbows all the way up to the Rambo unit if the preferrence is turned on.

All of the uprade paths that yo umay be used to from Civ3v1.29f remain unchanged.

Thanks! I guess I'm ready for it; I can't wait!

 

[Karasu]

Back on topic. I really enjoyed Yndy's concise strat post. It gave me something to think about.

I noted that in my past games I have always had a relatively slow early expansion due to my neglecting early granaries.
Now I see it as an early investment that really pays off (lots of thanks to Charis too, here).

In this case, however, my old habit would pop up again: if the island were REALLY small, wouldn't it be more effective to go straight for MapMaking and do without Pottery? I think it comes down to counting the turns you save this way vs. the turns you would save with granaries - turns "lost" to get pottery and build at least a granary.

Anyone can shed a little light on my confused mind?

 

[Singularity]

Originally posted by Karasu

In this case, however, my old habit would pop up again: if the island were REALLY small, wouldn't it be more effective to go straight for MapMaking and do without Pottery?

Anyone can shed a little light on my confused mind?

You'll have a hard time getting around researching pottery if you're going for maps as it's a prerquired tech for maps

 

[Mart]

Well this is the first GOTM that I intend to play, so I don't really expect to do that well. I'm looking forward to it and i'm impressed by the amount of organisation and effort that goes into these, well deserved props to the GOTM team.

I'll most likely rush to Map Making and explore the oceans as I have a habit of 'Roleplaying' when I play Civ. Not sure what kind of victory i'll aim for as i'm not planning on being too aggressive towards the AI. I'll negotiate with them for what I want and once I know their size/defending ability i'll cut them off from the resources they need the most before selling them back to them at a hefty price.

From the looks of the starting position I think i'll move east like everyone else here. I suspect that it's another island across the way, and to the west a dense jungle/forest area with a river running through it, encircled by mountains. I think you can see another part of this river to the south running to the south east.

Looking forward to playing this with you, I just wish the GOTM area of the site was a little more 'Opera' friendly.

 

[LKendter]

Well, looking at the game description - LARGE, I know I am going for a space or Diplomatic win. I simply won't have enough time to complete domination with a large map within the short time frame.. In addition, trading with 5 civs will be rough.

The big question is going to be the number on my island. I am going to work on the assumption on none, and rush toward map making.

 

[Jurimax]

Welcome to CF Mart, trust me, you'll do great in GOTM. As I've mentioned numerous times before, a couple of months ago I could barely survive on Regent, then I started GOTM 15. I have to admit, I didn't win, but I survived and did fairly well. In GOTM 16 (Emperor) I didn't even manage to survive, I actually won the game...

You see, never underestimate yourself.

Greetings and happy civing.

 

[Moonsinger]

I like RufRydyr's idea of moving the settler to the east and build the capital there. Since this is a Regent game, it probably will take about 12 to 15 turns to discover Potery. It would take another 25 turns or so to discover Writting, and may another 30 turns for Map Making. If there is no one else in our island, my guess is that we won't be meeting any other civ before 1000BC.

 

[el_kalkylus]

Originally posted by Singularity
I would defintly not go for literacy at least. GL at Regent difficulty is pretty much wasted, at least after you've spent all your early shields on Lighthouse and galleis. So mapmaking, then maths will probably be my early tech route - with a conservative science % on math research.

Like Karasy said, close citybuild will probably help get an early edge as well.

Aren't early libraries good? Or is it better with forums (marketplaces) that produce more money so that you can reduce taxes?

Also, what kind of civ is carthagians? Expansionists? Industrial? Religious?

 

[Singularity]

Not meaning to spam the thread here, but looking at that starting pic I think that workers/slaves are needed quite badly to clear that jungle. Then again it could be a coincidence that we see 5 jungletiles at the start.

--

Originally posted by el_kalkylus

Aren't early libraries good? Or is it better with forums (marketplaces) that produce more money so that you can reduce taxes?

Also, what kind of civ is carthagians? Expansionists? Industrial? Religious?

Carthage is Industrial and Commercial. I would build markets before I get libraries.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by el_kalkylus
Also, what kind of civ is carthagians? Expansionists? Industrial? Religious?

Industrial and Commercial

Edit: I change my mind. I think I will build my capital right at the starting location, then I will build my second city two squares NE of the capital, then my third city 3 squares SE of the capital. My guess is that there are a lot swamp and jungle out there. Therefore, I should make the first 3 cities to be very highly productive.

 

[Yndy]

Karasu: I only go by intuition and never do the proper math but the light that you are looking for is probably number of cities that you can build and that number is between 4 and 8. If you can build less than 4 additional cities don’t bother with the granary. If you have space for more than 8 cities, the early granary will help you a lot. Your city building style has a big influence over this and the land available has one two. Remember that a perfect settler factory position close by would make you forget the granary in the capital so that you may build it faster in the first town.

Singularity: Currency is good and is the tech I would choose for Monarch but for Regent why not go the whole way and set your target on Republic. How hard can it be?
Alternatively go for literature and build libraries to further enhance your tech lead. FOrget trading do it on your own.

Still it depends too much on the map particularities to discuss it now.

 

[Singularity]

@Yndy

Granted that discussing techs 50 rounds in the future on an unkown map is quite futile But we know a bit about the map statistics, and about the abilities of cartaghe.

I will try to delve deeper into why i prefer markets. I feel that markets give you the flexibility of a large treasury for a later time if you must upgrade your units for a fast war, or go all out on the science slider. Libraries however are a passive resource that sits there untill you must prioritize tech to reach your fluid goals as the game progresses.

 

[Karasu]

Originally posted by Singularity
You'll have a hard time getting around researching pottery if you're going for maps as it's a prerquired tech for maps

Silly me!

That's what happens when you post while at work... There are just too many things happening around you that won't allow concentrating on game issues...


I will do some thinking on Moonsinger's idea of city placement. It may be true that it is not so important to immediately build on the shores...

For today, enough stupid posts on my side!

 

[Renata]

If anyone out there hasn't played on Regent for a while , you might be surprised how far behind in tech you can get early if you're isolated and the other civs are not. Obviously this goes double if your start is river-less, as has happened to me once or twice. Six or eight techs by time of first contact would not be unheard of.

Which is why my initial plan is: map-making, then currency, build up an invasion force and use the pointy stick while still in despotism. I wanna leader, too.

One more thing. This is a large map, but at 83% water it'll feel more like standard size, I think. In terms of land mass needing conquering, that is.

Renata, who's won twice (third time pending - the Americans don't have rubber bwahahaha) on regent level so feels perfectly comfortable giving advice to deity players

 

[hotrod0823]

Not so sure that the shore is a necessity. Map Making comes far enough into the game that your second or third city could be a home for the Great Lighthouse. I try not to go with my capital on wonders too early simply because there is nothing to swap to in the case of the AI grabbing the wonder first. Palace prebuilds are wonderful things.

I think I may have to review Crackers opening sequence strategy pages to see if the lost turn is worth it. Based on what I see it is not a quick call and I would tend to leave the city where it is.

I am sure all the OCC players out there will definitely move the settler .

Hotrod

 

[cracker]

Originally posted by LKendter
Well, looking at the game description - LARGE, I know I am going for a space or Diplomatic win. I simply won't have enough time to complete domination with a large map within the short time frame.. In addition, trading with 5 civs will be rough.

In general, I will not do much to say whether someone's speculation about the game is right or wrong, but I want to focus on this statement about map size because Lee's statement is generally way off the mark.

We tend to fall into a complacent and somewhat over-relaxed assessment of what map sizes might mean without really understanding what we need to do to get the most out of our limited knowledge of our world.

Renata, is actually much closer to the process that should be used than is Lee. The Large map (130x130) size tells you only how big the box outline really is but gives you no indication of how difficult it might be to implement various victory strategies.

You need to take the map size and multiply it by 50% to get the actual number of terrain tile locations and then use the water% to figure out how much landmass is available in the game. You then have to use some assumptions about the shape and positions of the landforms relative to coastal squares in order to get a better feel for how many dominateable or usable terrain squares there may be in the game. Once you have these gross numbers figures out for the map, you need to use the total numbers of civs in the game to figure out the usable terrain squares per civ in order to get a better perception of how this map may really play with respect to some of the game strategies.

I would abandon all preconceived notions about large, standard, or small map sizes until you put them in better context of other critical variables in the world that actual effect the game play.

 

[alexman]

Can someone point me to a discussion of why Mobilization breaks the game?

Thanks!

 

[cracker]

Alexman, we want to try to avoid that discussion until after March 2nd, but at that time I will definitely provide you with a detailed answer that you are entitled to.

 

[Ambiorix]

Indeed very nice idea to open this thread. Last month I spent over an hour pondering the starting position, and now I can ponder many, many hours more doing anything...

If there's one thing I learned from past experiences it's to play according to the traits of your civilization. With Carthago being commercial and industrious, and a strong defensive UU, I'm not really thinking of warmongering. This setup has 'trade' written all over it. So perhaps the decision of where to found Carthago may depend on what option generates the most gold.

With an archipelago map we'll probably won't have a lot of space to expand. I think I'll forget about initial settler-factories and just build one or more settlers right away. If it turns out that we do have some space to develop, the Pyramids are still an option.
I'm also guessing we're alone on a small island, or perhaps we have a (barbarian ?) roommate.
Also, I'm somehow expecting a showdown between our mercenaries and Roman legions.

Nice setup again, Cracker !