Gotm17-Carthage Pregame Discussion

[SirPleb]

It is great to have a few days to mull over the setup and to discuss it!

I'm tempted to start by wasting a worker move, N or SW (probably SW better, want to see where we are in the minimap though), in the hope of spotting a bonus resource. I don't know whether settling Carthage beside a bonus (if there even is one) would be worth delaying 2 or 3 turns. And of course there's a downside to this approach - if no bonus becomes visible then this approach loses one worker turn.

Aside from that possibility (moving worker and seeing a bonus) I like Moonsinger's approach. We could be on a small island with food and workable tiles at a premium. So settle on the hills to get things going right away and to add 1 food to the visible region. And it is a nice location being on a river. Then the second and third towns on the coast. It might work best to put the town NE of the start at N,NE to quickly clear some jungle - depends on what else is up that way and how densely I'll want to settle. (If there isn't much land at all then I think I like 2 tiles NE better, leaves more room to the north.) All this might change quickly as more land becomes visible of course What if that ora (oops, water ) to our east is a lake? It seems unlikely to me. My guess is that we're seeing a bay. And is that water we see at the edge SSW from the start? We may well be on a peninsula. Hmmm.

The Numidian Mercenary strikes me as one of the less useful UUs in the game. Costs the same to build as a Swordsman but has the attack and defense values flipped from 3-2 to 2-3. I guess I'm just aggressive, I like the offensive units better Still, if there's anything like the GOTM16 barbarian land, these units may have special value - it won't take as many of them to stand off hordes of barbarians.

Cracker, I have two questions: Will it be possible to get leaders from fighting any of the special barbarians, and will it be possible to trigger a Golden Age by fighting them with Numidian Mercenaries? I'm half expecting the answer to be "that's for us to know and you to find out" But if you are willing to tell us in advance I'd like to know, to me it feels like a strategic consideration (vs. a discovery.) In GOTM16 one of my reasons for attacking the barbs asap was the hope that they might be used to produce leaders. My thinking was that since the mechanics of their implementation seems to involve modifying some unused Civs, just maybe that would work. Based on GOTM16 I think the answer to both questions will be no but then again you might have done things differently this time...

 

[cracker]

Originally posted by SirPleb
... I have two questions: Will it be possible to get leaders from fighting any of the special barbarians, and will it be possible to trigger a Golden Age by fighting them with Numidian Mercenaries? I'm half expecting the answer to be "that's for us to know and you to find out" But if you are willing to tell us in advance I'd like to know, to me it feels like a strategic consideration (vs. a discovery.)

You are wise as much and Lunacantoris is beautiful.

Part of the answer is that process of producing a great leader involves getting and as many of the right units promoted up to elite as quickly as possible. In my personal games, I do not kill barbarians unless I have a use for the value produced by their blood on my sword of if the world is a few turns away from the the 2nd civ in the Era silliness.

You will not see one of the standard leader-led civs used in a super-barbarian role in this game even though we have mastered the technology to do this at some point in the future. The fifteenth civ in the game is actually the zero number civ and serves as the barbarian AI (O=barbarians, 1=humans as carthage, 2 thru 15 = your 13 AI rivals).

 

[Bolan Longpants]

I noticed in the few games I played using PTW the barbarian behaviour is much different compared to 1.29. In the old version you could put warriors and swordsmen on top of a mountain waiting to get promotion. In PTW the barbarian warriors tend to leave units on mountains alone in order to move to your towns. In stead of attacking the towns they just walk around and pillage everything in sight. This can be quite annoying when in the very beginning of the game because you can't use your workers. Nowadays I tend to build archers fairly early to get rid of those barbs.

It's also going to interesting to see if horses or iron are available on near your capitol. I wouldn't be surprised to find iron on remote islands.

 

[alamo]

Comments on the start position:

River starts on settler hill
Delta visible across SW mountain
Costline visible across SSW mountain

Carthage must have coastal access since archepelago means land scarce and early galleys necessary. Moving E looks like the optimal move - coastal w/just 3 sea tiles and the only graslands in the surrounding area.

However, things could be better on the W coast - bonus or lux, which appears to be 3 tiles away. Moving the worker to the SW or even the N mountain would be my first move.

It may turn out that the coast far to the E is part of this island or another fertile island. Carthage on the E coast could be better for corruption.

I hope Carthage fairs better than Pompeii.

 

[Takeo]

i have only played on continents and pangea up till now.
Archipeligo will be a new experiance for me. the great lighthouse should have lots of potential here. i'm glad that this is regent, cause i haven't move beyond that dificulty on my own yet!

Takeo

 

[cgannon64]

This is going to be the SG that starts me in SGs! I've tried before, but never submitted, but now that I have Monarch down pat, and that Carthage is my favorite new civ, this one should be fun. A few questions:

How are you doing Carthage for vanilla Civ3? Are you copying the files from PTW (illegal) or did you make up a new unit and civ with the same stats as Carthage?

And what does regionally enhanced mean? I'm interested to see what cracker did to this one...

 

[cracker]

This is not an SG cgannon64, this is the big league. The rules and processes are different.

I am going to strongly recommend that you impose a self limiting restriction that says "I promise that I will not start playing this game until I sit down and patiently read all of the instructions plus look at some examples of the expected behavior that has been established in the past games of Gotm15-Russia and Gotm16-Rome."

If you do this, you will have fun and will not be the monthly posterboy for the "locked out of posting in the GOTM forums" award.

Trust me that what is being done in this game is perfectly legal and professionally implemented on a scale that may even correct some of the discrepencies in the software that you purchased.

Since you have declared your intent in the past not to play the GOTM except in PTW, I would advocate that you not distract the process by worrying too much about the Civ3 version of the game. You can only play one version of the game and you may only discuss or submit that single version of the game.

We will be able to help you play and enjoy the game when we begin to seem some completed examples of your play efforts.

Good luck in the game; we have been eagerly awaiting your arrival in the PTW version.

Read all the rules first so you can benefit from your time spent here.

- cracker

 

[planetfall]

Interesting, interesting.

Yeah, a lower level for a breather.

Yeah, no Rambo's. Yeah, Yeah, no invisible Rambo's.

Waah, no Mace units. Can you say Longbow or not decisions again.

Fantastic-- we can use PTW.

Question How much does a large map slow down play time? I have not played with a large map before because I have an older 400Mhz cpu.

Oh, another question. With the fast pace of all happening on GOTM and QSC, about when will last month's QSC results be posted?

Thanks.

Oh, another Yeah, no Y-scrolling.

== PF

 

[cgannon64]

Originally posted by cracker
This is not an SG cgannon64, this is the big league. The rules and processes are different.

My bad, I meant GOTM. Sorry, I've been thinking about my latest SG... And don't worry, I'm familiar with the rules of the 'big league'.

I am going to strongly recommend that you impose a self limiting restriction that says "I promise that I will not start playing this game until I sit down and patiently read all of the instructions plus look at some examples of the expected behavior that has been established in the past games of Gotm15-Russia and Gotm16-Rome."

Don't worry, I just read the Scope of the Game after that post. Looks like alot of fun, I'll just have to get the rules down somewhere where I can read them easily. I've been waiting not only for a PTW GOTM to come along, but one like a Regent that I could start on - I can beat Monarch pretty easily, and Emperor alot, but I figured might as well start small, right?

Since you have declared your intent in the past not to play the GOTM except in PTW, I would advocate that you not distract the process by worrying too much about the Civ3 version of the game. You can only play one version of the game and you may only discuss or submit that single version of the game.

I was just wondering....

Sorry for the point by point post. I've been in OT too long...

 

[kojimanard]

Cracker, are you going to use accelerated production? Its available on Civ 3 and Ptw. The only effect is that the games go more quickly. I often find it difficult to have the time to finish many times, and AP helps. If everyone is playing it, it's an even playing field.

 

[PattonTwo]

My 2 cents. (Worth at least one cent!)

The debate seems to be between moving the settler and staying where you are at.

Personally I would go for the coastal move. In this game start I'm more concerned about extra shield production than the extra food to be gained from the hill. You would also lose the ability to mine the hill.

With the islands map, I want to be able to start on the Lighthouse as early as possible. If we end up on a small island, I'll probably build 1 warrior, 1 settler, and then get to work on the Lighthouse (as a prebuild). The goal would be to build Lighthouse almost immediatly after MapMaking, and start cranking out Galleys.

For tech, I'd start with Pottery (which should come quickly), then writing, and finally MapMaking. I am guessing that will take about 100 turns or till about 580bc (If I counted right). From there, it will be only 3 techs to Republic, and 3 for Monarchy. Forget Monarchy.

The final thought I had is, I don't think we should assume there will be no other civ on our island. Unless it proves to be very small. I tested a couple startups with the same defaults and in 4 of 5 I found another civ on my island. In this game there will be a little less land, but 2 more civs.

Looks like fun. Too bad I'm busy this weekend! It will have to wait.

 

[Luithien]

Hi all,

Well this will be my first GOTM..

Must say it all looks fantastic and am very much looking foward to it. Will be intresting to see how I compare to everyone...

Well where to settle..
Like most people here, tile east looks like it will be my place to settle, but will be moving the worker to the mountains first to have a look around just to make sure...
My thinking. Culture and trade will be very very important... Will be doing everything possible to be the dominant force in these two areas... That means Lighthouse, Colossus and then G.L ASAP.. After I have these three wonders move my science down and increase luxery's and taxes. Will be doing this as corruption will be a real problem and having towns celebrating "We love the da da da" will help alot in this area.

What was it 15 civs including the barbarians??
Good chance there will be at least one other Civ on the island.

Well thats the plan stan..
Hopefully I'll have some success...

 

[el_kalkylus]

Ok thanks Singularity and Moonsinger.

Originally posted by PattonTwo
My 2 cents.

In this game start I'm more concerned about extra shield production than the extra food to be gained from the hill. You would also lose the ability to mine the hill.

You wouldn't gain food if you build the city on the hill and the water to the east is salt water. But you mentioned another good reason to move the settler to the east: production. I think I will definately build the city to the east now. It's settled.

 

[cgannon64]

I'd definetely move the settler to the East. The coast opens up alot more wonders, and mining a hill, while being costly in time, really gives lots of production.

Looks like there is jungle and mountains to the west though.

 

[Phillip_martin]

Originally posted by cgannon64

Don't worry, I just read the Scope of the Game after that post. Looks like alot of fun, I'll just have to get the rules down somewhere where I can read them easily. I've been waiting not only for a PTW GOTM to come along, but one like a Regent that I could start on - I can beat Monarch pretty easily, and Emperor alot, but I figured might as well start small, right?

Welcome to the GOTM. A lot of effort is going into the GOTM games these days, so it is not just newcomers who need to look before leaping.

Cracker has made the last few games sooooo interesting it is hard to pause and take stock of what is being said in the game scope when another is released.

I highly recommend that ALL players read and re-read all game information prior to playing

As an example it has been highlighted seeing a map size of large without looking at the percentage of water leads to an incorrect assumption.

Still there may be those participants who, for whatever reason just want to play the game as soon as possible without thinking too much about it (A legitimate play style if it is the presence of a large black fog that gets the blood pumping). What I would ask is that if you fall into this category that you respect the direction that the GOTM is heading:

• Information and threads are being provided for building a sense of adventure in addition to the challenge provided.
• Contributions to the threads are for analysis and the sharing of retrospective information in a community environment. This enables participants to compare and learn while still providing a fair comparison of your submitted game with others.
• An increased level of fun is being provided with map and unit modifications. While being challenging who sais we cannot enjoy ourselves?

I hope that everyone has a successful GOTM17.

 

[Luithien]

note to self..
Read the rules again...

hehehe

But basically instead of telling people what I plan to do in the future by ways of my luxuries, tax rate and wonders I should be posting it in retrospect of doing these things and how they effected my game

:suicide:

 

[cgannon64]

Originally posted by Phillip_martin
Cracker has made the last few games sooooo interesting it is hard to pause and take stock of what is being said in the game scope when another is released.

Have to agree with you there. I LOVE the semi-variant rules cracker has been putting into the GOTM. That's what made me want to join. I considered doing RBCiv a while ago, but those are too hard. The 'new' GOTM is just up my alley - not too hard, with not too many variant rules, but just enough to keep it away from the "milk and conquest" that seemed to plague it a while ago.

 

[LKendter]

Originally posted by cracker

We tend to fall into a complacent and somewhat over-relaxed assessment of what map sizes might mean without really understanding what we need to do to get the most out of our limited knowledge of our world.

I would abandon all preconceived notions about large, standard, or small map sizes until you put them in better context of other critical variables in the world that actual effect the game play.

Perhaps you want to add a usable land tiles to the front page.
Since you are using maps that can't be generated under normal circumstances, it will continue to be confusing for many.
I ran the calculations based on seeing your comments.
GOTM#16 = ~2400 squares
GOTM#17 = ~1450 squares.

If I did this right, then this is a smaller map. Please spell this out in the description. After my gotm#16 I am expecting the worst on autopilot from the maps. I know I am in the minority who did not enjoy #16 due to the impossible eastern contact situtation.

========================================

War Mobilization that normally becomes available with Nationalism has been disabled to prevent a game killer exploit.

I found this on the page description. What is this about. I rarely use mobilization, but I really hate to see a feature disabled. Has Firaxis been notified about this issue?

 

[Phillip_martin]

Luithien

Discussion of how the information and starting location affects your plan of attack will not bother the lawyers

 

[Phillip_martin]

Originally posted by LKendter


War Mobilization that normally becomes available with Nationalism has been disabled to prevent a game killer exploit.

I found this on the page description. What is this about. I rarely use mobilization, but I really hate to see a feature disabled. Has Firaxis been notified about this issue?

You will have to trust us on this. Further details are to be provided at a later date.