Gotm18-Celts - Pregame Discussion

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by Shillen
That doesn't generally account for good income either though. Bigger cities = more commerce assuming you have enough workers to get all worked tiles roaded. And even a size 5 city with 2 military police will require luxury tax without luxuries. Whereas if you had one luxury you wouldn't need any. It's more important on emperor and deity though due to the only one content citizen.

Basically, I don't calculate much when it comes to game play. It's just a game and it's suppose to help me to relax when I play. I just follow the rule of thumb. I will keep as many happy citizens as I possibly can without adjusting the luxury slider. If they are unhappy, they aren't very productive; therefore, I may was well move them off to start a new city.

 

[Shillen]

I'm confused about some of the discussion on city placement - does a city always have the same food / shields no matter what land its built on or does it take the characteristics of the specific tile - namely, if you build a city on bonus grassland, don't you get an extra shield in that city?

I would assume the same goes for hills. It seems that every time I build on hills my growth is so slow due to lack of grassland in the city tile that I can't get enough settlers going early in the game. Hence I won't be building on the hills. Likewise - the presence of fresh water makes the hills a disadvantage even if there are barbs - would rather build an extra spearman or warrior than an aqueduct.

I don't know the specifics but every city produces 2 food and 1 shield on the founding tile. So yes a regular grassland and a bonus grassland will both only produce one shield, so that shield is wasted if you found on the bg. I'm pretty sure the commerce of whatever you found on is kept though. Plus one commerce for the instant road founding the city gives.

As cities grow larger the center tile of a city produces more shields/commerce if you're commercial or industrious. Also when you get steam power and coal I believe the railroad bonus is applied to the center tile as well.

So yeah a lot of that is kind of vague since I don't know the exact numbers, but to make the answer to your question simple, founding on the bg will cause you to lose a shield. As for founding cities on hills slowing down your growth that isn't true either. Even if you found on a hill the center tile will produce 2 food. There is a tradeoff though. Since you founded on the hill you're unable to mine it, and therefore don't get the 2 extra shields the mine would normally give. But on the plus side you get the 50% defense bonus.

edit: Sorry reading over this post it doesn't sound very clear. Reread your very first question and the answer is yes all cities produce the same food/shields on the center tile. That should be easier.

 

[TedJackson]

This is a mock-up! I do ***NOT*** have a copy of the SAV file. All additonal terrain visible in the 2nd picture is entirely fictional

Here's the starting view:

Here's the view you would get from the hilltop:

Well worth the lost worker turn IMHO.

Here's what you might see if you move the worker North:

Not such good VFM

This is a mock-up! I do ***NOT*** have a copy of the SAV file. All additonal terrain visible in the 2nd picture is entirely fictional

Edited to clarify the fictional nature of the screenshots

Edited to show worker North in comparison

Edited because I forgot to crop the 3rd image

Remember, this is all make believe! We'll know for sure in less than a week. Yippee

Ted

 

[Smirk]

I think I will settle nw, or ne. I'm leaning towards ne, the freshwater is not as big of a deal as a river, without the bonus +1 gold spaces there will be no need to go for a larger starting pop, hence no need for the freshwater. Plus forests can come in handy for the 2 shield production, prior to building any mines. Also non-coast water tiles are pretty weak anyway, so I would avoid them more if I could. I'll try the worker on the hill and see if two moves are warranted, anything to get further away from that useless lake.

In addition I will want those 2 hills in my city range in the hopes of iron, so moving sw is out of the question.

So from my perspective, you have about 5 valuable spaces, so I won't need fresh water for some time. I'll attempt to research iron first, and then just build up gold, in the hopes of getting other techs in trades for peace. This is also based on the fact that I won't be able to avoid golden age early, and tunneling to monarcy would be very costly.

So I'll be warmongering as options present themselves. And the 2 move swordmen will come in handy to be offensive with the barbs.

 

[cracker]

Ted,

I think you need to use your mockup to found the city starting position for the settler and compare that view to the worker exposure before you claim that tyou have found the perfect solution.

I also want to strongly caution you about using images of assumed terrain beyond the FOW even if you include disclaimers because of the level of worthless confusion that this could create if someone does not pay attention (which is going to happen).

 

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by TedJackson
Here's the starting view:

That doesn't look like the starting view to me.

 

[alamo]

Originally posted by TedJackson
Here's the starting view:
Well worth the lost worker turn IMHO.
Ted

Right on! A helpful post - confirms my guesstimate of 11 squares revealed, though I forgot the forest hiding another square. I say the worker climbs the hill to see what he can see.

A disclaimer in big red letters on the image would leave no room for confusion.

 

[TedJackson]

Originally posted by cracker
Ted,

I think you need to use your mockup to found the city starting position for the settler and compare that view to the worker exposure before you claim that tyou have found the perfect solution.

I am not claiming to have found the "perfect solution. I was merely illustrating the additional information available from the hilltop and clarifying the visibility of the square I mentioned in an earlier post.

Originally posted by cracker
I also want to strongly caution you about using images of assumed terrain beyond the FOW even if you include disclaimers because of the level of worthless confusion that this could create if someone does not pay attention (which is going to happen).

Point taken. Would you like me to edit them out?

Ted

 

[TedJackson]

Originally posted by Ribannah


That doesn't look like the starting view to me.

Well, I didn't want it to look identical, did I now?

Ted

 

[el_kalkylus]

Ok, I change my mind. I will move worker to the north too. Why should I care if I lose only one food if there is ocean to the south? It's not like I will place the rest of my cities perfect anyway. Starting position is probably fine if there are no specials to the north.

 

[SirPleb]

My bet is that the water NW is a small lake, a good place to throw the weapons of our defeated enemies.

I think I'll move the worker NE at the start. (TedJackson: Thanks for the illustration of exactly how much new info that will provide!) Then if there's bonus food anywhere nearby I'll move toward it. If there isn't any, I'm tempted to move the settler SW, hunting in that direction for food. More likely I'll just settle at the start position - partly it depends on where we are in the world on the minimap.

If there's no bonus food then a granary will be a high priority for me. But I don't think I'll research Pottery - I think there's a reasonable chance of meeting someone and trading for it fairly early.

I think the questions of tech pace and the Gallic Swordsman are intertwined:

As Shillen has pointed out, it is likely that we have a range of viable research strategies. At Monarch level, with the large map research rate, and with 10 rivals, I think we'll be able to get a fast tech pace if we want it - we can lead in research and with heavy trading get some help from the AIs. Or we can get a much slower tech pace by limiting trading activity and doing little or no research.

There may or may not be a bit of a tech rush at the start. Depends on how quickly the AIs contact each other. If some expansionist Civs make early contact then they might hurry down the first part of the tech tree from huts. But after the exploration phase we can probably control the tech pace reasonably well.

Taking an aggressive approach to tech will probably render the Gallic Swordsman less useful because:
1) If researching flat out we'll be short of cash, there won't be much money available for the expensive Warrior -> Gallic Swordsman upgrades.
2) They'll be obsolete relatively quickly. I think these units will rock in Ancient Times. They're expensive (overpriced I think) but they sure are strong and fast. I've tested an important characteristic - they do get a "retreat roll" which adds to their value.

I plan to follow a slow tech approach. (There goes my QSC score again ) Build up cash for upgrades and try to extend the useful life of the Gallic Swordsman. I'll probably keep research at zero for a long time, will hope to trade contacts and maps for tech. If I happen to get Alphabet very early (from a hut or trade) then I'll hedge my bet by researching Writing at the 40 turn rate.

 

[Zwingli]

Regarding the wisdom of founding a city on top of a bonus grassland, DaveMcW posted a Formula for city tile shields in the Strategy section which seems to have been largely ignored. In the long term there is no disadvantage to founding a city on top of bonus grassland as you still get the extra shield from it after the city reaches size 7+. In fact, deserts and plains also get the extra shield at size 7+.

 

[Luithien]

Well this will be my first GOTM.. well with my new PC anyway.
upgraded from my P166 which took around 5 minutes between turns in the begining (lucky the cricket world cup was on) to a spanking P 4 1700

Last GOTM was a bit dicey.. was probably the lowest score I have ever recieved.. Could have finished in around 1900 with a diplomatic victory but decided to go for the space race.. achieved 1930...

Well pangea on monarch is right up my ally...

(clapping)
"I can feel a domination victory comming on"
"I can feel a domination victory comming on"
"Got the taste for it"
"Just cant wait for it"
"I can feel a domination victory comming on!"

 

[Txurce]

SirPleb's slow-tech approach to maximize the usage of the ancient era's best UU sounds good to me. Given the UU's exorbitant cost, it may also be a good idea to build more workers than usual early on.

 

[Renata]

I just started a monarch level Pangaea game with the Celts a week or so ago (pure chance; I went all-random) and found the Gallic swords to be most useful in the very late ancient age/very early middle ages. All of the AIs were in the middle ages about the same time I finally got republic and had some extra cash(Pangaea plus no rivers plus monarch level = research slowpoke award for me). I hadn't even tried to build gallic swords early on due to their cost, and had built horses instead. Once I finally got a few though, they were terrific - 3 offense plus retreat cut through border-town spearmen like butter, and I was able to have a couple of very effective short wars to collect about six cities, the colossus and five or six techs (combination of extortion and golden age research) in about fifteen turns.

Haven't been able to finish the game yet, but it's looking good.

Was there a point to this? Ummm yeah I think it was that gallic swords are good for more than just the ancient age.

Renata

 

[hotrod0823]

The war mongers are out the war mongers are out !!!

I think the map and the number of civs will be perfect for a very fast tech pace. And I think the UU is too expensive and not worth it. I don't rely on swordsmen at all, tried and failed to use the legionary effectively in GOTM16 and don't intent to build any GS other than perhaps to get a golden age.

Peacefull expansion and a quiet space victory in the 1600's. How's that for a goal .

Who know's

 

[Singularity]

After having thought some more I have a few further thoughts about the opening turns. All this is based upon the worst case scenarios of 1) No rivers or resourcebonuses in cityradious. 2) No potential 4food tile in cityradius.

- No rivers in sight. Allmost immediate effect on tech rate and the important treasury savings for future upgrades of warriors to Gaul swords.

- If there are no cattle/game in cityradius - will I build granary first, or settler first? The answer to this also is connected to my first warriors discoveries of the surrounding land. Luckily monarch difficulty lets you scout with the first warrior and still have a content population. If I scout a perfect settler factory close by I will get that settler out ASAP.

If the AIs have rivers at startposition we will most likely be experiencing an 'emperorlike' advantage in tech compared to our own. Experience tells me that this is usual when you start without a resource/riverbonus to your treasury.

I would be very interested in learning how the more experienced players set up a city where you had no extra food in the cityradius. And any thoughts on an impaired economy/research in the first 30-40 rounds.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Originally posted by Zwingli
Regarding the wisdom of founding a city on top of a bonus grassland, DaveMcW posted a Formula for city tile shields in the Strategy section which seems to have been largely ignored. In the long term there is no disadvantage to founding a city on top of bonus grassland as you still get the extra shield from it after the city reaches size 7+. In fact, deserts and plains also get the extra shield at size 7+.

Well, my point here is that there may very well be too few other good tiles to get the same production out of a town <7
And I want to expand early on so I'm guessing I won't be +7 with my capitol until +/- the start of the middle ages.

 

[Borealis]

Originally posted by Singularity
- If there are no cattle/game in cityradius - will I build granary first, or settler first? The answer to this also is connected to my first warriors discoveries of the surrounding land. Luckily monarch difficulty lets you scout with the first warrior and still have a content population. If I scout a perfect settler factory close by I will get that settler out ASAP.

Even on emperor, it's often advantageous to scout with your first two warriors, even when your next citizen will be unhappy. Why? Lux tax. The research rate at that point will allow you to get a granary before your prebuild runs out anyway, and in most cases an extra worker slipped into the build order will minimize the amount of turns you have to spend with the tax on. Sometimes, if you're lucky with line of sight and barb placement, you can build a granary before a garrison, but this requires good timing and appropriate tiles within the city radius. (Note: going without a garrison not recommended for Deity... I still have to beat it, but I have learned that doing so early on is one of the things NOT to do.)

I would be very interested in learning how the more experienced players set up a city where you had no extra food in the cityradius. And any thoughts on an impaired economy/research in the first 30-40 rounds.

I'm only moderately experienced, but unless I saw a Holy Grail of cows/wheat combination nearby, ready to grab with my first settler in a short amount of time, I always have a granary first. Granaries add to food bonuses, and can help make up for a dry or food-poor start. As far as impaired economy/research, I usually go for Pottery at the most I can afford, allowing for lux tax as my city needs it. An extra worker fairly early on can help the economy by giving you more roads, and a 'worker factory' city can multiply this. Buying workers off the AI, if you can manage it, helps a lot, both in speeding you up and slowing the AI down, to the extent that some competitions and rule sets such as the RBEs ban it for nearly crippling early AI city development.

 

[Shillen]

While the upgrade cost of the Gallic Swordsmen is very high, in some ways that's more of a reason for you to use them rather than horsemen. When you rush a unit it costs 4 gold per shield. If you were to rush a horseman it would cost 120 gold (disregard the doubling effect if you have no shields). If you were to rush a gallic swordsmen it would cost 200 gold. But then if you rush a warrior, then upgrade to gallic swordsman it would cost 40 gold to rush the warrior, then 80 gold to upgrade, or 120 gold. Therefore you're getting a gallic swordsman for the same price as a horseman.

My biggest concern other than the despotism GA is having obsolete units. The gallic swords will be great early on. Then when you get knights they're not so hot anymore, but still ok. Then when you get cavalry they're pretty much useless. But then there's the question, will it take until cavalry to dominate the AI? With a pangaea map and only monarch difficulty I'm not so sure. I'm betting a lot of the more skilled warmongers could easily dominate the world before military tradition. I'm planning to upgrade some gallic swords, hopefully just enough that I can use them to full advantage, but not have many leftover after the dawn of knights.

Ok here's the next topic for discussion, Ancient Wonders. It's not too hard to get ancient wonders on monarch level with a little bit of pre-building. Which ones do you think are important and are you going to try to build any yourself or just capture them?

I think the obviously most important wonder is the Pyramids due to the pangaea map. On the other hand it's probably one of the harder ones to get since it's from a first level tech and not one that we start with. Actually probably any wonder that gives all cities on the same continent a bonus will be worthwhile here. But do you build them? I don't think I will try for the Pyramids. If I do though I'll make sure to do so in a productive coastal city. So in case the AI gets the Pyramids first I'll be able to switch to the Colossus, which is always good to get. Whichever civ does build the Pyramids though will move way up my target list.

What about the Great Library? I usually avoid getting it, but it's fairly appealing in this game. Since like I said before I don't plan to do my own research until after chivalry. The Great Library would allow me to keep up on tech without having to trade all the time or research on minimum science. This could be just what I need to upgrade all those knights and warriors. But how fast will the tech pace be? In a fast paced tech game, even with pre-building, by the time I build the Great Library we're already in the middle ages and I only get a few techs from it. This isn't even worth the shield cost to build it. Not to mention the chance of not getting it and having nothing to switch to. It's always painful to waste hundreds of shields for nothing.

Since I plan to use a domination approach to this game I don't think I'll try for any wonders though. It's a lot easier to capture a wonder than it is to build it. There's no worry about a civ building the Pyramids on an island or anything like that. I have faith that the GOTM staff made a true pangaea map and not the usual maps you get with the random map generator.