Gotm21-Mediterranean Melee - Speculation Thread

[RufRydyr]

Originally posted by CruddyLeper
After having thought about it, I think maybe practising archer rushes might be an idea...

It's a technique I've always been bad at, and given the "melee" in the title it might be a smart move. Depends on food production of the start area, so maybe I'll abandon the idea once I see the start.

Then again, it's wise to be prepared.

For the longest time I would just build warriors in between settlers and wait until decent unit were available.

Over the last week or 2 to feed my civ addiction I was playing some HOF games as Chieftain on small maps. Tried the archers and they rocked! I built a barracks first and then built about 4 archers and hit E to let them explore (sometimes they went weird places, but others times they went right to the goody huts!). I took out several civs with just the archer that found them or 2 archers. It was pretty cool.

I think that a stack of 5 or 6 archers with a couple of hoplites for defense will make a killer early SOD.

Btw, I researched the archer tech first and then the horses second. As soon as I hooked up horses I started mixing vet horsemen in with the settler build mix and then they could race to catch up with my archers. Then I researched galley and swordsmen and used galleys to get swordsmen to my archers and horsemen for the cities on hills.

I've always been good at modern age warfare, but have never really tried ultra early wars like I've been playing with recently. Even if I attacked with the single archer that found a civ and he died, a bunch of turns later I could settle for peace and get gold, workers, cities, techs, etc. [I'd also trade/demand stuff before attacking.]

Haven't tried it on the higher levels, though, so maybe somebody that knows what they're talking about can chime in.

 

[Boyd]

Archer Rush

I recently finished a emporer level game with Greece (pangea - large) and using about ten archers with four hoplites broken into two "armies" I was able to lay waste to both Rome and Egypt.

By making use of defnsible terrain I was able to avoid the worst of the Egyptian chariots and using a couple of spare hoplites I was able to cut Rome's iron supply.

When combined with a very defensible city with a wall (pop rushed one of those) that protected the entry way into my core and by using a few horsemen as decoys lead various Roman untis away from critical sectors it was tremendous.

After the beginning of hostilities I produced about three archers to one hoplite at four four cities regularily while having two settler factories to reoccupy the "liberated zones".

Speculation

Anyway back to cracker's initial comments and query, note he makes reference to "resources" that will add flavour and will fit with the strategic game. In addition, cracker alludes to more than two changes ("a number of added resources").

So my guesses follow what some of the others have suggested: bronze (SR), olives (LR) and at least one other... I'm stumped on this as almost all of the commodities that were traded in the ancient era are represented in the game.

As to the map, pangea or closely linked continents with an inland sea that dominates, limited space, lots of civs and oodles of very twitchy barbs on the fringes.

sounds like a blast... just please not deity! I'm not sure I'm going to be able to finish let alone survive in gotm20.

 

[CdB]

Hi,

While reveiwing the discussion on Archer Rush. I have just bumped into the idea of facing an early GA. Frankly, the idea does not appeall to me that much and I like when I can time this at a later date (end of middle ages ) so I can benefit from well developped territory and be at least at Republic to really get the full power of GA.
How would you cope with this.
Also, I am wondering what will I do with this soon outdated archers...
So I have not yet decided on my strategy

 

[mudfoot]

@CdB: (in reverse order) in the archer has an additional upgrade possibility (to longbow and then guerilla) and (I could be wrong here) I thought that the GOTM team provided that last unit and upgrade paths for .
The other part is a personal judgement call. Either you avoid early war (or if you have one, avoid using the hoplite) and try to get a GA by grabbing a required wonder or you do go for early war and have an unproductive GA. Personally, I find the Greek UU, the hoplite, to useful to neglect. It's a pikeman who doesn't need iron and is available from the beginning! Everything considered, I don't find a GA THAT important. Btw, if this 'melee' is going to have a full complement of civs in a tight area, then early war might be almost unavoidable!

These are just my personal opinions in this matter. I'm not the most experienced player, nor one of the really good ones, but you asked!

mudfoot

 

[CruddyLeper]

Cdb: the reason I suggested archer rush PRACTISE might be a good idea is the Melee in the title. An early land grab might not be possible without an early war due to a close civ... or it might not. It depends what the early explorer warriors run into, really.

As early war is something I'm bad at, I thought it wise to at least work out how to grab a resource or two.

As for the GA, I regard them as bonus turns. They are LARGER at the end of the game - but they are certailnly also USEFUL at the start.

I'm not saying it's a guaranteed gambit, I'm saying I need to be ready for it if it's necessary... the point of GOTM (for me anyway) to improve my game in areas where I'm poor in skills.

 

[scubagtr]

Hmm... I wonder when Cracker will start the official GOTM21 Pregame thread with the starting conditions and location. Is there usually a standard time, i.e. 1 week or 5 days or something prior to the 1st of the next month? I am eagerly awaiting the info.

Anyway, I've had one practice round of Greeks, small panagea, Emperor level and loaded up on archers (~12) with 5 cities and started a war with my nearest neighbor the Romans. I was able to capture a 2 pop city, destroy 2 1-pop cities, but when I sent in a stack of 5 archers against the capital (size 5) I lost all my archers. Most of thier other cities had 1-2 spearman which I usually needed 3-4 archers to break through.

A few turns later, I sued for peace and got all their techs (3) and an extra city. So I would say , that my first experiment was succesful, but I have a week to practice more. The year was around 650BC when I started the war and my 5 cites were all that I could build as the land had already run out in my corner. I rarely fight early wars, but I know that is a weakness that I need to embrace and overcome. It will then be another tool in my belt for world domination. No civ will be safe with me around !!!!!

 

[CruddyLeper]

Well, I definitely need more practise at this - my first effort netted me Rome itself and 1 auto-raze - but it also lost me my luxury city, because the Roman's had horsemen! No peace available.

It seems that location of cities is important - you want maximun early building capacity rather than long term optimum position.

Back to the training...

EDIT: It seems the GA isn't triggered by Hoplites DEFENDING... So maybe you have to attack to trigger a GA?

Just to make sure no one makes this mistake, the Golden Age will definately be triggered by a victorious Hopolite Defender. -cracker

 

[Lux_willow]

If new resources are to be included the most likely are tin or copper or both!!! wich are the components of bronze. Also olives and marble for lux probably replacing silk and spice

An archipelago in the middle of a ring pangea with us in the middle islands or in the shores and resources in the islands. Or a large central island and small islands/peninsulas around it with one civ in each small slot.

English tin/far away resources requiring trade routes would be nice challenge. Unfortunatly there's no way to import food that would make it more realistic. Early expansion should require map making. No other scientific civs... that would be interesting... us with a large tech lead and no way to use it unless we trade it or conquer ressources.

Lots of choke points... mountainous terrain... slower expansion little food available, big deserts.

Civs: spanish, chartaginians, romans, minoans?, persians, India?, kelts, Egipt, england?, arabs?

Volcanos, fog, squids?

 

[Delta House]

Has anbody think about the great greek stories, like Ilias?
Maybe we will meet Ajax oder Odyseus as leaders!

 

[RocknOats]

I have been reading everyone's forecasts and also thinking about past posts and what the games actually turned out like. It seems Cracker never goes as far as some predict/wish he will. IMHO, I believe this will be Emperor, the map will be a series of smallish continents connected by isthmuses with a large central sea. We will be able to reach all by galley, and with the lack of settlable land, this should create the fun kind of bloodbath hinted at in the title. I think he will use all the greek names similar to GOTM 16(?) Rome. I think the resources should be Copper, olives, and tobacco, the last as a precursor to Conquests. The opposition will have all the locals, egypt, carthage, rome, ottomans, persia, and such, with a weird one thrown in like the aztecs. In the same vein as Japan making a guest appearance this month. That's my call, see y'all soon!!!

Rock on!

 

[Xevious]

Just to make sure no one makes this mistake, the Golden Age will definately be triggered by a victorious Hopolite Defender. -cracker

Hmm, so if you want to insure a late GA you need to insure against attack, or use swords for defenders, a costly proposition. Of course with a militaristic civ, maybe Diplomacy isn't they way to go this month.

 

[Stone Wolf]

Maybe bronze is an additional resource required to make spearmen. If that's the case, Conquest players could still build defense units and avoid an early GA. Just a thought....

 

[denyd]

Based on the Hoplite comment from Cracker, I make the safe guess we're playing as the Greek's.

That probably means other AI's are:
Romans, Carthage, Persia, Babylonian, Germans / Russians, Zulu / Ottoman & Egypt.

Probably a standard / small world with either islands or archipelago. Lots of hills / mountains. Probably a monopoly on 1 lux and access to either horses or iron (probably not both).

Probably either an easy Emperor or hard Monarchy level game.

In another thread Cracker mentioned needing some of the same art / units for this game as for the last game, so probably Galleass & Chests for the Conquest class people. For the Predators the most difficult might be a Space ship win.

For the fun of it someday, a GOTM for the Predators, it would be interesting to have an only one unknown victory condition with the rest of them turned off. So the player has to accomplish each of them until they get the only one available!!!

 

[flexo]

@denyd: unknown victory conditions? That would really really suck! OK it might turn out increadibly amusing but still ....

OK 11 pages of comments, the lazy gene kicks in so I won't read them all. I think the question should be in what way will it be a Mediterranean Melee, will it look like the mediterranean or have the nations or both. I'm starting to guess the later.

We Greek starting on the right of the map, Persia to the right of us, perhaps also the ottos, italy and spain to the left. Egypt to the south. Germany as the big barbarians to the north. Other civs, no idea, perhaps the french.

Lots of hills and mountains (still think it sucks you can't build cities in the mountains, tell that to the people of Denver). A few medium sized island and several smaller once. One large "continent" type island to the north and middle (europe) one to the right (middle east) and one to the south (africa).

Main export of greece is what? Drunken tourists? So I guess we'll have wine a plenty.

Hopefully not another deity game, but I don't think they'll go all the way down to l4, so it'll probably be an emperor game. Which means 'open' game or if I feel the urge I might stand and die in a predator session. No death, no glory or whatever it is they say.

 

[pilferman]

Mmmmm.....Mediterranean melee.....

The new resources should be interesting. Here's a prediction: most will enjoy the resources but only the hardcore players will be upset. I think they look great.

I'm really tired of seeing Zulus in my games. All they do is attack me. I would like to see a few non-Mediterranean civs in the mix as well. Perhaps India or Korea.

I've got a question. Why are we playing Greece again?? I like playing as Greece, but aren't there still a few PTW civs we have yet to see? If this issue has already come up, I apologize. I've been gone for a month. I'd appreciate it if somebody could let me know.

 

[cracker]

The primary limitation on adding the additional PTW civs is just a logistics issue of getting the leaderheads, UUnits, Civilopedia, and Diplomacy in place so that we are not inconsiderate of ouf 30-35% of our players who cannot gain access to functional PTW software even 9 months after the expansion pack was released to PC users in the USA.

In particular the way the Diplomacy dialogue files are implemented is particularly cumbersome to update and support. Instead of having one folder with allthe assets for the Civilizations consolidated and controlled by an xxxx.ini file, the civ control functions and graphics are scattered out all over the place and updating just one line of text requires you to republish all 10,000 lines of existing text that may be unaffected.

We also inserted the two Melee type games plus the planned "Game of the Year" in December to give us more flexibility to present some game play options that might lead us to pursue pairing some different Civilizations with different map conditions and special features (either standard or added).

After this game, we will proceed through the 4 remaining PTW civs (Vikings, Arabs, Korea, Mongols) and then will play an "Asian Melee" game that will be another unique concept game that should be very fun and exciting within the basic standard strategies of Civ3.

 

[pilferman]

Originally posted by cracker
The primary limitation on adding the additional PTW civs is just a logistics issue of getting the leaderheads, UUnits, Civilopedia, and Diplomacy in place so that we are not inconsiderate of ouf 30-35% of our players who cannot gain access to functional PTW software even 9 months after the expansion pack was released to PC users in the USA......

......After this game, we will proceed through the 4 remaining PTW civs (Vikings, Arabs, Korea, Mongols) and then will play an "Asian Melee" game that will be another unique concept game that should be very fun and exciting within the basic standard strategies of Civ3.

That sounds reasonable to me. The Greeks are always a joy to play as long as deity level is nowhere in sight.

 

[scubagtr]

Yes, the Vikings are coming!!! I have never played them and can't wait to in a few months. Their UU is the bomb !!!

Of course, I could play them now, while waiting for the July GOTM, but what fun is that. Now that I am addicited to the GOTM and Civ, I just use the extra days between the games to practice different techniques/ strategies of the next civ coming. Plus regular games now feel so uncracker-like..

Playing the Greeks begs us to go into early war to make use of the Hops. With just one defending our city, they stand a good chance of winning against attacking warriors and even horseman. I'll just leave my hops in my border cities and start marching around with stacks of archers and horsemen. I'll try not to have an early GA, but if it happens, so be it. My game plan rarely changes if I have GA going on or not. It just goes a little faster during that time.

 

[Sailorstick]

I'm guessing lots of sea. I think cracker wants to try the galleass (sp?) to it's full potential. I'm also tipping that it'll be a small map cramped with civs.

 

[cracker]

The "Scope of the Game" Announcement page for Gotm21 is now available at:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm21_melee.shtml

and the pre-game discussion is now fully open at:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56867