GOTM23 Results and Congratulations

Originally posted by EsatP
I think that the calculator yields not so good results. Among 100 best players only 5 have won a cultural victory. It is not normal. I understand, that domination or conquest is easier, but the calculator should take into account it. It is possible, that ours 85 and 99 (with Assura) results correspond to a level of game, but it is better than us only 3 received a cultural victory... I think, that it is necessary to reduce weight of a military victory.
You forgot to account for GOTM23 being Medal Pay Game 5-5 with the target of domination.

If you look at the GOTM22 results (doubling as MPG 5-3 with cultural 20k target), you might deduct overweighing of c20k.

It is not a failure of the calculator, it is intended by the players.
 
Originally posted by EsatP
I think that the calculator yields not so good results. Among 100 best players only 5 have won a cultural victory. It is not normal. I understand, that domination or conquest is easier, but the calculator should take into account it. It is possible, that ours 85 and 99 (with Assura) results correspond to a level of game, but it is better than us only 3 received a cultural victory... I think, that it is necessary to reduce weight of a military victory.
Sorry terrible English

If you aim for fastest conquest or domination victory then your score will be very close to the score you would achieve if you were simply trying for maximum Jason points :D. If you aim for the fastest finish via other victory conditions then typically you will have to sacrifice Jason points to do so, as you are unlikely to reach the domination limit as fast as domination/conquest players will :(.

The system is fair insofar as everyone plays under the same rules and is free to pick which victory condition to aim for. Jason points are also the best scoring system anyone has come up with. However the downside to the system is that it tends to undervalue those games seeking to reach a fastest finish date for victory conditions other than conquest or domination. For the moment if your goal is to maximize your GOTM score you should aim to reach the domination point (or wipe out all rivals) as quickly as possible, and not attempt a fastest finish in one of the other victory conditions.
 
Originally posted by Dianthus
I've just been looking at the score graph ... using my CRpViewer (I've just uploaded the .crp file to my website)

Many thanks for your excellent utility. I have never used it before and its a pity. It greatly helps with game analysis. For example, I found out that at every single point of the game my score was slightly higher than SirPleb's and most of other players above my 20th place. It was just slow warfare that made me finished 200-600 years later (with only 12% difference in score which is very minor compared to other GOTMs). Probably, building too much culture, happiness and settlers instead of military. However, total difference in score is very small (either Jason's or Firaxis) considering the bigger bonus you get for finishing earlier in both scoring systems. It looks like that I just got in the "linear" part of the Jason's curve where Firaxis score is more or less proportional to the Jason's. Anyhow, the goal of the game is to keep your folks happy and grab some land at the same time. Looks like grabbing the land rapidly does not make anyone happy. And when everyone's happy you cannot grab the land very rapidly. At least in GOTM23... You learn the trick when land goes in rapidly and people are still happy. Apparently, this is either impossible or very-very difficult.

I also considered a possibility of cultural victory (100K) instead of domination and it looks like that it was possible to achieve it around 1450-1550 AD if I would have continued cultural growth at the same rate.

Thanks again for the game, it was a huge fun.
 
Originally posted by Offa


I was intrigued by some of the games by the top players and tried to look up their reports in the forum only to find ... nothing.
Clearly you don't have to post, but you guys who are better than me, how I am supposed to learn if you don't tell me how you did it?

Ancient summary

Middle Ages summary

All the information you need to play a high scoring game is within these forums.
Looking back on it the key things in this game were:

Fast growth start (look at some of Qitai's posts or Cracker's starting guide)
Aggressive trading (I think Moonsinger started an excellent thread on this)
Targetted research (SirPleb's GOTM19)
RCP (see DavidesJ's thread in strategy articles) and resource disconnecting to upgrade (not sure where this came up 1st) also help

It looks like not bothering with a Forbidden Palace may also have ended up helping my game and that building warriors to upgrade to swordsmen wasn't as bad as I thought at the time.

The only thing I haven't seen get much exposure are tips for fast unit tactics. Things I did were:
Attack with numbers, but don't waste forces by using more than is needed. In the initial phases I'm happy with about a 80-90% chance of taking a town if it is not on a critical path and even less if it is. By a critical path, I mean an enemy town that is slowing up my progress towards further targets. If a town is slowing me up and is down to its last defender I am quite happy to sacrifice wounded units in attempting to take it.

Obviously at the start of a rampage you want to attack more cautiously, and the more success you have the more you can throw caution to the wind as each of your units becomes less valuable.

Combine this with a tactic I refer to as "forking" (careful how you say it ;)). If you can position attacking units so that they threaten 2 or more enemy towns at once then you can adjust the number of forces you throw at each town as the turn progresses. If you divide 6 ansars against 2 towns each with 2 pike defenders then you end up with two risky 3 on 2 attacks. If on the other hand, you have all 6 available to attack both towns, you are almost certain of success against the 1st, and then can decide whether to attempt the 2nd town that turn. With multiple smallish stacks of ansar each with a number of possible targets, you can improve your attacking odds significantly by picking the attack order and adjusting your targets if the results go particularly badly or particularly well, taking maximum advantage of whatever the RNG throws up. You also have fewer "wasted" attackers. A fully healed ansar that spends a turn in the front line without attacking is not pulling its weight.
Many forks exist where taking one town will opens up a path to further towns. Make sure your forces are positioned to take advantage of this.

Unit healing:
If a unit has a single point of damage you can rest it anywhere for a turn
If a unit has 2 points of damage then resting outside or moving to a town and then resting, both have the same 2 turn cost.
If a unit has 3 points of damage then resting outside or moving to a town without a barracks have the same 3 turn cost
Don't forget to take advantage of a wounded units remaining movement. Often you can save a turn by waiting till the end of all combat before moving wounded units and then moving them as far forward as you can. They are not going to heal that turn anyway, so the extra movement is effectively free.

Other things to do are:
If you are not that bothered about leaders (and you shouldn't be towards the end), always send in elites 1st. They have both a greater chance of winning, and better retreat odds if they fail.
Keep fast units on roads where possible, even within enemy territory when that territory will soon be yours.
Keep workers near the front to build roads where needed; build roads towards distant targets before you attack if none exit.
 
Originally posted by Kuningas
My game isn't on .crp file :(
For those that are interested (even if it's only Kuningas ;)), I've just updated the GOTM23 .crp files to include Kuningas' game.
 
What no prize for the 4th highest loss? (139/154).

Oh well, I learned more in this one than my previous 3 - I was doing pretty well and could have probably won (not well mind you but a win). I broke one deal to grab two cities and it all fell apart. I have never had a game pivot on a rep hit like that before. Very good lesson.

This is also the last GOTM I've turned in. I've just been swamped and I have some hangup about only playing if I can finish - I really need to at least play the QSC and turn that in to compare with others. I've been playing in what little spare time I've had - and I plan on playing the Asian melee.

Love these things but reality keeps interfering - once I win the lottery - this becomes my full time job. (since I don't even buy tickets - that may be awhile).

ssharlow
 
Snaga,

Excellent tips, especially the point about not wasting movement for newly wounded units. This can often be the difference in getting them to a town with barracks, or at least positioning them so that when they are healed, they are still in striking distance of the front.
 
Yup, that's a great list of things to do for successfull warmongering given that one knows the articles you point to.

Now my problem is, given that I do all things mentioned above, why do I always score lower?
 
Originally posted by Snaga


Ancient summary

Middle Ages summary

All the information you need to play a high scoring game is within these forums.
Looking back on it the key things in this game were:


Great game Snaga, and well done on your gold medal. Thanks for the hints. I agree that there is a plethora of good advice on the site, and I certainly have benefited enormously from it. Your performance is still pretty amazing though.

I hope my initial post is not misinterpreted. It was supposed to be a lighthearted comment. I was really referring to a few top players who, as far as I am aware, have never posted at all, ever. Maybe they don’t speak English. I think that the gotm community would be enhanced if more people post reports. Civ is a pretty time consuming game as it is, so I think it is worthwhile to waste a little more time to post a report. If people wrote a couple of paragraphs about some aspect of their game, it would enrich the site. Very long reports aren’t necessary, although as much detail as possible would be appreciated from folk who have clearly aced the game. I would especially like more reports by people who didn’t do well, as these are often very entertaining
 
Originally posted by Yndy
Yup, that's a great list of things to do for successfull warmongering given that one knows the articles you point to.

Now my problem is, given that I do all things mentioned above, why do I always score lower?
Well in this game the single biggest factor would be how quickly you discovered Chivalry. I would guess there would be a stronger correlation between this date and final score than any other factor. Chivalry unlocked both ansars and a golden age. In combination these were strong enough to take over the world. I researched Chivalry as fast as I could and got it in 370BC, you appeared to slow down research after reaching the middle ages and didn't get Chivalry until 110AD.

To get Chivalry quickly I maximised the number of citizens I had working on trade generating squares in non-corrupt towns, especially towards the end of the ancient ages, and at the start of the middle ages, when I was researching ahead of the AI. I think the best way to do this is to use RCP, heavily emphasis growth and build or buy many workers during the ancient age (I think Qitai came up with a good rule of thumb: if a citizen isn't producing at least 2 food, a shield and a trade unit then it will be more effective as a worker.) A citizen in an uncorrupt 1st ring town is more productive than a citizen in an outer/higher corruption-ranked town, so growing core cities will give you a stronger economy (and production base) than trying to build many towns. In this game especially, the terrain outside the core area was poor, so there was even less value in expansion through settling.

I compared our games using the .crp file (great tool Dianthus! :goodjob: )
I built 14 towns before starting my conquest phase in 570BC. You built 26 before starting yours in 30BC. By that turn I had captured my way to around 70 towns.

The only other thing I noticed was that your placement of Makkah on the starting tile was not as strong as placing to SE. The SE square allows twice the growth rate with a granary under despotism.
 
Wow!! My first 10,000+ Jason point game, and I'm 21st :eek: And, if I counted correctly, my 870AD Domination Victory puts me in a 3 way tie for 22nd fastest victory. What a bunch of warmongers! :)

Clearly the GOTM process has improved the general level of play. This crowd knows what to do with a stack of Ansars, and the pre-discussion thread really helps set the stage to prepare for the upcoming Game.
 
:jump: 132 and LOWEST DIPLOMATIC VICTORY on my first (and seemingly last) win. I've never been so excited to be lowest anything.

Realizing I was losing I marshalled my military for a daring gambit toward the AI controlled UN and took the first vote I could -- just before AI spaceship launch; they said they loved me! This one was a steal but I'll take it.
 
Originally posted by civ_steve
Wow!! My first 10,000+ Jason point game, and I'm 21st :eek: And, if I counted correctly, my 870AD Domination Victory puts me in a 3 way tie for 22nd fastest victory. What a bunch of warmongers! :)

Clearly the GOTM process has improved the general level of play. This crowd knows what to do with a stack of Ansars, and the pre-discussion thread really helps set the stage to prepare for the upcoming Game.

I'll say! I also scored over 10k and ended up right behind you..even with faster domination date (800 AD). People here are just too good!
 
Congrats to all. I am looking forward for the December GOTM :D.
 
Originally posted by SewerStarFish
...

Realizing I was losing I marshalled my military for a daring gambit toward the AI controlled UN and took the first vote I could -- just before AI spaceship launch; they said they loved me! This one was a steal but I'll take it.

That is a Great Victory!! This shows that you're rarely out of it, even if you're far behind.
 
Congratulations to all!:goodjob: Especially to Ronald!:goodjob: Wow, I have noticed that you are now outscoring SirPleb!
 
Originally posted by ainwood
So...When are you coming back to play, Moonsinger? :hmm:

After I win my first Sid level. So far, I lost twice already.:( But I have a new plan....and it may work this time.:)
 
Originally posted by Moonsinger
After I win my first Sid level. So far, I lost twice already.:( But I have a new plan....and it may work this time.:)
Well, maybe ainwood could make the next GOTM's Predator class game be at Sid level ;)
 
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