Gotm25-Mongols Pregame Discussion

[Svar]

Originally posted by Justus II
Another question, I see on the Civfanatics homepage announcement it refers to Steppe Settlers, but I didn't see any mention of them in the game announcement. If I read it correctly, the UU's (other than the Ordu) can be upgraded to some type of Settler at the end of the Middle Ages (Military Tradition, maybe). Any thoughts? Would it maintain a higher movement? Could be useful to resettle captured lands after a lot of razing.

The Steppe Settler gives players the ability to retire any Mongol unique units that survive the fierce ravages warfare in the middle ages. All three of the extra unique units (Turghaut, Khorchin, and Bagatur Hordes) may survive to be retired at the end of the middle ages.

To me this means that the extra unique units can be retired to become Steppe Settlers whatever that is. This could be their greatest value if you can build cities with them or add them to existing cities.

Edit: I think a Steppe Settler is a Migrant. From Conquests Fall of Rome 'the Visigoths start with 7 Migrants (Settlers who can move at double speed)'.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

The Way I plan it:
ATTACK: Korchin (3/1/3, 6/1/1 ZL), Bagatur Horde (3/2/3, 6/1/1 ZB)
DEFENCE: Turghaut Cavalry (2/3/3, 6/0/1 Z)
ARTILLERY: Ordu archer (2/1/3, 4/1/2 ZB), Bagatur Horde (3/2/3, 6/1/1 ZB)
B = blitz. L = Lethal. Z = Zone of Control

artillery effectiveness = Bombard Value * rate of fire * attacks possible per turn.
Therefore:
Korchin = 6*
Turghaut Cavalry = 6^
Ordu Archer = 24
Bagatur Horde = 18
*Korchin have lethal bombard, which puts them in a class of their own
^Turghaut Cavalry aren't made for bombarding anyway.

Bagatur Hordes are a jack of all trades, but master of none. They cost more, can't be ugpraded to, can't be upgraded from. However, they can make up your entire army if you want, and are cheaper than building each unit seperately. I'm going to go for the combined arms approach, but the horde approach may be just as good.

 

[SirPleb]

Wow!!! This is going to be fun! Shaking my head in amazement at the careful construction of combined troop possibilities here. I seldom build combined unit stacks. But in this game I expect I'll be wanting to do a great deal of that.

Here are my scattered pregame thoughts. These are highly subject to change as the map unfolds, and as I play the game and find out I was wrong

I'll go slow in this game. It looks way too good to race through, I'd rather play it slowly and savor it.

Based on what's visible so far I will irrigate the start tile and move the settler NE. But before doing this I'll move the scout, just in case he sees something better. I'll start the scout with a step SE. Where he goes next I'm not sure. What he sees may affect the decision. If nothing special is visible at this point I might make his second step to the west. That would reveal a few more tiles which could change the settler's first move, though that is unlikely - only one of those tiles is grassland which could have cattle.

Depending on surrounding terrain I expect to end up with one or two settler/worker factories using the lovely wines.

I'll avoid early warfare if possible. One exception will be if war is necessary to claim iron and horses. Another possible exception would be if a neighbor builds Great Library. Aside from those possibilities I'd prefer to spend Ancient Times building up for the massive wars which will come in the Middle Ages.

I haven't decided yet but I'm considering going to Monarchy and staying there in this game instead of my usual choice of Republic. Once we hit the early Middle Ages this game is likely to be continous war till the end. Monarchy without war weariness, or Republic with more income? I'm not sure. After exploring the map I'll decide. Luxury availability and the likelihood of being at war with multiple Civs simultaneously later on will affect my thinking on this.

The four unique units present many interesting possibilities. They'll all mix nicely into hordes (stacks ) since they're all fast.

As others have said, Turghaut Cavalry will be good defenders. I think I'll want at least two of them in each Mongol horde. Having two or more in a horde will allow the horde to continue if one is wounded or killed, and will allow temporary splits of the horde into two or more sub-hordes. These units are far from invincible defenders though. They'll be facing strength 4 attackers. I think it will be important to also use the horde's fast movement to take advantage of defensive terrain.

The other three units are attackers. Each has a different advantage. They all share one weakness: low hand to hand attack strength. They're weaker than Knights in this regard. It will be important to utilize their archery. When attacking cities this may mean that we need large numbers of them. If, as I suspect, archery works like bombardment against cities, then many shots will be "wasted" reducing the population and improvements instead of hitting defenders.

The Ordu Archer seems the weakest attacker, especially with hand to hand attack strength of just 2. But it can fire twice per turn at strength 4. This will be an advantage in some situations over the Khorchin which can fire once per turn at strength 6. And it can eventually upgrade to Cavalry - a major advantage if the game continues to the Military Tradition stage

The Khorchin is in the middle of the three attack units I think. It has an ok hand to hand attack strength of 3, a single shot per turn at 6, and that single shot can kill a redlined enemy. In general it seems best to use these units to take advantage of their powerful archery instead of attacking hand to hand.

The Bagatur Horde seems the most powerful special unit to me. It has the same stats as the Khorchin except that its shots cannot kill a redlined enemy, it has defense 2 instead of 1, and it has the blitz capability. The blitz capability will be this unit's advantage. In seiges they can use three strength 6 shots. If these units are used to dispatch redlined enemies in hand to hand combat, they'll get an instant upgrade to elite by winning twice in one turn, and thereafter they'll have plentiful opportunities to produce leaders. This unit should fare well on its own in some situations. Its defense of 2 is barely acceptable for a loner (an accompanying Turghaut Cavalry would be better of course); in offense it can be very powerful, taking two shots at an isolated enemy unit and then engaging it in hand to hand combat all in the same turn. I think this unit may have been underestimated so far. Which is better: 3 Khorchin at a cost of 60 shields (3 archers) + 90g (if we have Leonardo's, 180g if we don't), or one Bagatur Horde at a cost of 60 shields? If the Bagatur Horde does indeed get to take three shots per turn, then both of these choices result in 3 strength 6 shots per turn. But the Khorchin can be prebuilt before we learn its tech. And has lethal shots, and each of the three Khorchin can move and shoot in the same turn. OTOH, the Bagatur Horde has better leader generating potential and costs less. Decisions, decisions ...

It seems to me that the special units become progressively harder to build in the following sequence:
A Turghaut Cavalry can be created by retraining a 10 shield Warrior.
A Khorchin can be created by retraining a 20 shield archer.
An Ordu Archer can be created by retraining a 30 shield Horseman.
A Bagatur Horde can only be created by building one at a cost of 60 shields.

Trying to save gold for the upgrade paths will clearly be important. Whether that is possible, and how to do it, will depend on how the map unfolds.

It may be useful in this game to leave one or more productive towns unconnected to the rest by road. Those towns would be able to continue producing warriors and archers for a long time, who could then travel to a nearby connected town and be retrained to become Turghaut Cavalry and Khorchins. It might even work to have a separate town connected only to horses, to build Horsemen for upgrading to Ordu Archers. This seems a dubious possibility though - hard to set up and only 20 shields are saved on that upgrade path.

My initial thinking is that ideally I'd want my hordes to consist of Turghaut Cavalry, Khorchins, and Bagatur Hordes in a ratio of about 1 : 3 : 8. The Turghaut Cavalry would act as defenders. The Bagatur Hordes would wear down enemies with their archery. When the enemy is down to redlined units, the Khorchins would fire on strong defenders, the Bagatur Hordes would take out the weaker ones hand to hand. But I doubt I'll have any chance to actually build hordes with that dream mix - it is a very expensive mix to build. And has no longer term potential to upgrade to Cavalry. In practice I'll probably have hordes with some Turghaut Cavalry, many Ordu Archers, some Khorchin, and some Bagatur Hordes. And I might have some isolated Bagatur Horde units wandering about.

Research: I'll start with research at zero. Our starting techs enable building granaries and archers, but they don't enable direct research of any second level tech. I'll try to meet neighbors and find goody huts before starting research.

A bit further along, trying to build Great Library will be tempting. It would enable saving up a lot of money for upgrades to the special units. Nonetheless I probably won't try for it. Limited expansion and a high production town might change my mind. But the downsides of building it are significant too: many shields invested, and slower research. The Great Library approach encourages waiting for the AIs to discover techs. I'll prefer to get ahead them (if that proves possible.)

On entering the Middle Ages the choices become confusing. Feudalism first because it is necessary for all of our UUs? Or Monotheism and/or Engineering first, counting on the AIs to research Feudalism and trade? I'll go the second route if the AIs are researching quickly enough by that time. If there's a scientific Civ in the world that will change things, it will depend on their free tech. But I'll hazard a guess that there's no scientific Civ

Feudalism will give us our first special unit, the defender. I won't want to go on the offensive with just this unit. But depending on the world situation it might pay off to start a defensive war at this date. The first defensive win will trigger our Golden Age (or will it? Cracker, could you please tell us?) and this might be a good time to start one, enabling faster research to the other special units.

After that, which will be better: Monotheism and Chivalry, or Engineering and Invention? The first gives us Ordu Archers and Bagatur Hordes. The second gives us Khorchin and a shot at building Leonardo's. I think I'll go for Chivalry first because I want to start building some Bagatur Hordes early on. And if our Golden Age can only be triggered by Ordu Archers then I very much want to research that path first.

After learning Chivalry and Invention it may or may not be worthwhile to research further. If it seems that domination can be reached with just the special units then perhaps no more research. OTOH, Cavalry are a much more powerful hand to hand unit. Learning Military Tradition, and then replacing all Ordu Archers with Cavalry but continuing to travel with the other units would be a powerful combination! And of course if Astronomy or Navigation is necessary to reach Domination then that will call for further research.

One last thought: It may be possible to trigger a Golden Age via wonders before triggering it via our special units. Either Colossus or Great Lighthouse will satisfy the expansionist requirement. Any of Great Wall, Sun Tzu's, or Leonardo's Workshop will satisfy the militaristic requirement.

 

[bluebox]

o.k., gotm-staff - you made it very special again indeed! i wonder who will make use of the ptw std. uu now? this quadruple-uu is much more exciting - but the ai would never get it this setup right!

@non-bagatur-builders

not building bagatur hordes! don't you want to see the special m-unit graphics? at least this is a reason for me to build it!

i'd like to add that these uu-s are available with different techs, e.g. turghaut first with feudalism and khorchin last with invention. so you want to create powerful hordes of the both units, you have to wait "some" turns - maybe four, maybe 20. but time is going to run out as this game has to be won at the end of the middle age - to get a good result.
sirpleb has written down some thoughts about how to make sense/use of the time delays in the tech paths between different uu's availabilities.

the additional uu may "retire" at the end of the middle ages. together with that fact there is mentioned a special settler unit though is isn't explained in the features' feature of gotm25. i suspect these units merely can be disbanded to become citizens, just like workers.
OTOH, that these units "cannot be upgraded for military purposes" could mean in cracker-speak they do can be upgraded for civil purposes.
in this case i would suspect a settler equal to the regular settler or in some way "weaker".
but imagine: you get a settler from each unit? aside from some strategically interesting towns you can raise almost all of the alien cities and resettle the map from scratch during the middle ages.

rcp-ring number 4 to 15 is finally possible - or two rcp-designed cores at once !

first moves: the zig-zag movement of the scout by SirPleb seems to be a good idea. i will play open class so i am giong to have an additional warrior, too. I would like to send him onto the hill - where i want to place the capitol, too. I'd like to have some defend bonus against the barbs and such?

i'd like to read more about how to make use of start pos. - if some of wines (at least 3 of them) are on bonus grassland i think i could figure out how to run a settler factory. if not .... hmmmm

any ideas?

thank you for reading this

 

[alexman]

Whoa! I just realized that the Khorchin likely have lethal bombard ability! If that's true, they are insanely powerful. No need to build any other units. With enough of them (and you can get enough by building Archers and upgrading) you will not risk ANY losses!

Am I missing something?

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Korchin - dont have blitz ability, and they have only 1 defence. They can pack a punch, but they are as defendable as a tower of cards.

 

[SirPleb]

Originally posted by bluebox i wonder who will make use of the ptw std. uu now? this quadruple-uu is much more exciting

I agree, I can't imagine using the PTW standard Mongol unit with this SOOOO intriguing group of alternative units. Not to mention that they're so much stronger

Originally posted by bluebox
I would like to send him onto the hill - where i want to place the capitol, too. I'd like to have some defend bonus against the barbs and such?

My feeling is that it is better not to settle that tile. When worked by a citizen, wines on hills are a great combination. In Despotism it produces 2 food, 1 shield per turn, and in this case on a river 2 gold, before improvements. This is even a bit better than an unimproved bonus grassland on a river. Mining it to get 2 shield/turn (in Despotism) is perhaps a low priority because of the cost of mining the hills. That will only a high priority if that's the best way to get a settler factory running. But eventually we'll of course do it and that will make this tile even better for a citizen to be working.

Originally posted by bluebox
i'd like to read more about how to make use of start pos. - if some of wines (at least 3 of them) are on bonus grassland i think i could figure out how to run a settler factory. if not .... hmmmm

any ideas?

I doubt that any of the wines are on bonus grassland, so I'm with you, I don't think that what we see so far will support a four turn settler factory.

A four turn factory has to start its cycle no later than size 5. With the tiles we can see, at size 5 three citizens would have to work wines (to get us up to five food/turn), leaving just two citizens to produce shields. If both of them produce 2 shields, that's just 5 shields for the first turn. 7 shields on the second turn by using a forest gets us to 12. Similarly the next two turns produce at best 7 and 9 shields, totaling 28 by then and leaving us two shields short of a settler at the time we grow to size seven.

But, if we can build it reasonably quickly, the visible tiles seem to theoretically support two five turn settler factories. That would be a rather complex operation. First we'd need two towns with granaries and both having all four grassland wines in their workable area. One option would be that they use the +1 food from the four irrigated wine grasslands in a five turn cycle as follows:
town1: 2,2,0,4,2
town2: 2,2,4,0,2
Each town would also be adding +2 food/turn from its use of grasslands or hills with wines. So:
Town1 could produce a settler on the third and fifth turn of the cycle above.
Town2 could produce a settler on the first and third turn of the cycle.

The big question with this approach is whether it is worthwhile. Can we quickly build two towns with granaries? That depends on what other resources are nearby. A secondary (but related) question is whether those two towns can produce sufficient shields/turn. This part of the question is likely to be a yes answer - they'd only need to produce an average of 6 shields/turn over 5 turns vs. a four turn factory which must average 7.5 shields/turn over 4 turns.

With 11 rivals on a standard size map, expansion room seems likely to be limited. I think it most likely that two 5 turn factories will not be worth the initial investment it would require. Most likely, a single five turn factory will make sense. A second town without a granary can pick up the excess leftover food. Of course this will depend on initial exploration.

And it might be that expansion room is very limited, in which case an eight turn settler factory without a granary (using four irrigated grassland wines, with excess food in each four turn growth cycle used by another town) may be best. Wish I knew what's just beyond visibility in the map so far, but of course that's part of what makes this so much fun

 

[Karasu]

This is a very interesting point.

I experimented with the 2*5-turn settler factory in a recent game (which I couldn't finish in time due to too much time spent at work... imagine... ).

My patience with micromanaging is admittedly short-lived, so I messed it up more than once.
Even taking this into account, though, I found out that the investment is indeed considerable, and by the time you have the thing up and running, you may no longer need that settler output.

The thing may be appealing if you can obtain it from a 'traditional' 4-turn settler factory (which was my case), so that you can still expand while waiting for the second city to be ready.
In fact, the second settler factory allowed me to found several cities just in time to fill the last available land tiles.
In the end, I think that a steady 4-settler factory would have brought the same result, with probably a more balance output of military units vs. settlers.


P.S.: Of course, I am amazed at the range of possibilities offered by the quadruple UU. Simply a wonderful idea I just can't wait to get started -this time, I won't let work get in my way...

 

[Dianthus]

One intersting thing about these UU's is that it's not necessary to build a barracks for units that are to be used only in the bombard role. That means you can avoid wasting shields to produce the barracks and 1gpt on it's upkeep.

 

[serttech2003]

I've played around recently with the Mongols (of course before the UU improvement which made much of my play time useless in terms of military thinking) and did some playing around with science. I agree with SirPleb that lacking a clear 2nd tier tech really thows the 40 turn gambits into a loop.

I'm not sure i'm brave enough to do no science and hope to catch up through huts and neighbors. What i have done is start masonry at 40 and race to 4-5 scouts to cover as much territory as possible. In a good game, i quickly find the first tier techs and can often get MYST from a neighbor, allowing me to switch to a 40 turn POLY followed by a 40 turn MONARCHY. With the saved gold I can buy my way into the next age.

Now all this was before the new UU. Do I research behind the others saving gold a massive upgrade or spend the gold to get out of the ancient age?

Anyone ever eat at the Mongolian BBQ (there are two in Chicago). If I were there ( currently in Brazil) I'd take my laptop and play the game while eating, maybe it would inspire me more.

Anyone got ideas for science?

 

[Dianthus]

Originally posted by serttech2003
Anyone got ideas for science?

I think I'm going to do as SirPleb suggested and start with 0% science initially. I'll try real hard to find goody huts at the start. After that it will depend on the map type. If I can find lots of AIs then I might continue with 0%/min research. If we're island bound then 0%/min research might not be a very good idea .

I would be very surprised if we're on an island by ourselves though, as cracker tends to give us a chance to use our UU's, and to make the best use of them we would need horses/iron nearby and AI's within easy reach via land (fingers crossed!).

 

[TriviAl]

I'm going to switch to cem burial at 0% research as it should be the cheapest tech... that way can trade for it instead of 'wasting' a hut on it.

Trading should be the way forward at this level, as the AIs have considerable advantages for their own research...

 

[LKendter]

Well don't forget - you can't pop the tech you are researching. If nothing else, you want to have selected a dirt-cheap tech like bronze working.
[composed before seeing TriviAl post]

Now that I saw the main page the UU situation makes more sense. That site is blocked for "gaming", but the forums aren't.

Cracker likes to put historically correct into play at some level. I doubt the water is a coastal, as the Mongols didn't start on the coast.

 

[Puppeteer]

I wouldn't expect seawater near our start, either. But then I don't recall seeing rivers near lakes in Civ3 before, and this is an arid terrain (?!). I think I want to verify the water type before settling.

I'm not much of a settler mover, but if I move the settler I'll get another food bonus to work. But if I leave the settler where he is there will be at least 8 workable tiles with commerce bonus once the borders expand. If I move, say, NE, I'll have 7 river bonuses after expansion. Okay, that's not as big a difference as I first thought, and the second city will likely pick up what the first one misses, anyway.

I have a feeling this starting point is the most fertile spot of land we will have for an age and a half. I want my early city placement to be perfect, so I'm thinking about scouting with the scout and worker for a turn or two before settling.

I haven't done this before, but I understand it's possible to create my own map using the downloaded units and rules for GOTM25. If I do this to test out the unit play and costs and the confusion about apparently retiring the UU's to steppe settlers, is that considered cheating?

 

[rabies]

peanut - thanks for the document. I will find it quite useful.

 

[RedwoodTree]

here's peanut's unit summary as graphic if it helps:

http://www.discoveryproductions.com/gotm25units.gif

 

[rabies]

For myself, I think I will stay true to the 'horde' mentality. I'll go for monarchy as fast as I can, and then stay there all game. My cities will build a barracks, and that is about it as far as improvements.

I think I will space cities to get to size 6 or so max with the target of 10spt coming in..they may have to get bigger to hit that number. Once that is done, i'll crank units and upgrade. The rest of my game will be focused around building units and dominating the world.

I'll rely on the dozens of leaders I plan to get for my wonder needs.

Short and simple. Course, my plan will probably get shot all to hell as the map is exposed and then I'll have to punt.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

First, a question: Gingerbreadman indicates that the Korchin cannot blitz, and I cannot find any reference to it having blitz ability either. But, it looks like SirPleb is thinking they can blitz. Can anyone give a definitive word on this critical difference?

My plan is subject to the whims of the map, but here are my thoughts:

The Minor tribes may be close to the starting position, so I may build a small military early to take them. This could possibly overrule the need for a settler factory depending on terrain/rival cities proximity. Close enemy proximity may also rule out RCP.

My overall plan is predictable and will revolve around having a large military waiting for upgrade when Feudalism/Chivalry/Invention become available. An immediate invasion will follow. Lots of cities in ancient age will be necessary for units needed.

Like SirPleb, given the number of civs and my starting techs, I probably will not research anything initially. If I make some early trades I may try for 40 turn mysticism or something later. If we happen to be on a landmass with only a few civs, then this plan will change quickly.

Great Library, Leonardo and Pyramids will support this plan (listed in order of importance). If I have a high production city or leaders I may try for one or two. I will probably not build Libraries, Temples, etc. early because of military needs, although a few for culture would be nice, and may be built by default if I have trouble building a large treasurey for unit upgrades. Militaristic trait will virtually eliminate the need for Sun Tzu.

My scout will probably move W unless those two squares on the western side of the river look like plains (I can’t tell from the screenshot). Settler will probably go NE hoping for room for a second food-rich city in the start area, but if there isn’t enough room I may settle on the spot.

I am foretelling my military makeup based on three assumptions:
1) only the Ordu Archer and Bagatur Horde can blitz, not the Khorchin horse or Turghaut Cavalry. That means the two former units can possibly bombard 3 times per turn.
2) the Ordu Archer gets two shots (like a cannon) compared to the Korchin Horse’s one (like a catapult) per bombardment. I believe this gives the Ordu the better bombardment abilities overall, even though his strength is a four compared to a six. Plus, his blitz abilities should make for rapid promotions. AND he can be upgraded to cavalry.
3) Death by lethal bombardment does not give promotions, leaders or a GA. Does anyone know if this is the way lethal bombardment works?

If this is the case, I expect to build 2-3 horsemen (Gosposdar) for each warrior/swordsman and archer. Of course, this ratio will not manifest until just prior to the middle ages. Hopefully, when the upgrade techs become available, I will have about 5 stacks consisting of roughly 8-9 Ordu Archers, 3 Khorchin horse and 3 Turghaut Cavalry. When Bagatur Hordes are available, I will build as many as I can as early as possible. They look both versatile and deadly.

 

[SirPleb]

Originally posted by bradleyfeanor
First, a question: Gingerbreadman indicates that the Korchin cannot blitz, and I cannot find any reference to it having blitz ability either. But, it looks like SirPleb is thinking they can blitz.

My understanding is that only the Bagatur Horde can blitz, that none of the other special units can. I think the Ordu Archer gets two shots in the same sense that Cannons do, a single command directing both shots to the same place.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

I think the Ordu's can blitz. The post says:

"Your first unique unit is the Ordu Archer...When combined with a zone of control and blitz ability at a cost of 50 shields and an eventual upgrade to cavalry..."

If this is correct, then at full movement that would essentially make it a stack of 6 catapults!!!