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Gotm27 - The Last Samurai - Quick Game

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Quick Games' started by cracker, Jan 24, 2004.

  1. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

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    Unfortunately, Denyd, Cracker San is correct ;)
    I am reminded of a line from Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory:
    Oh no, we must never go back. If you want to go back, you must go forward, it's the only way!
    Otherwise, I will wait patiently for next week. :)
     
  2. denyd

    denyd Emperor

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    All right forward it is, let the blood of my troops be on your hands :)
     
  3. cracker

    cracker Gil Favor's Sidekick

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    It is not uncommon for brave souls to shed blood, sweat, and tears in pursuit of greater glory.

    However, each death, no matter how seemingly trivial or how loomingly significant, must be weighed in terms of how effectively those sacrifices were in acheiving the overall strategic goals.

    Orders do not absolve the general/admiral from the fundamental requirements to make wise strategic decisions and to consider all of the factors that will lead to the most effective attainment of the assigned mission objective.

    Now; go forth and see how history will regard you in terms of leadership AND humanity.
     
  4. denyd

    denyd Emperor

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    I took your advice and did not wait (good thing, forgot about the rubber thing) - when do you want results posted?
     
  5. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

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    I believe results were to be posted this weekend, I should be posting mine tomorrow.
     
  6. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

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    Well, I haven't seen a post to open up for comments, but it is past the 20th, so here we go!

    First, a big :thanx: to Cracker for giving us a very interesting challenge. When I originally played the GOTM, I invaded the Oda in a similar timeframe, but with somewhat different tactics. The Oda actually declared on me during my invasion of Scandanavia, but when I invaded their continent, in 880AD, I had a Cav army, 22 mostly vet cav, (and three elite knights), but also 20 muskets and 18 cannons. Also, my goal then was to capture the island more or less intact, as I planned on a palace jump to make an additional core, so the course of my invasion was quite different. Playing within the confines of this scenario made for some different choices, both the emphasis on raw speed and the restriction of only one city.

    Although the starting forces were quite impressive (awesome job of barb farming to get so many elites, I need to improve that part of my game, not enough patience), I also wanted to maximize reinforcements, especially to get some artillery and more defenders over. To do that, I would need more ships, and for that I needed cash. I did make a couple choices that have been more hesitant about in the course of a normal game (turned off research for a few turns, selling maps and Iron relatively cheap) because I knew it was a quick scenario, but I didn’t do anything outlandish either.

    I had taken a lot of planning time to decide the best course of action for the landing. With very few defenders, and no artillery, I was worried about getting overrun on the beaches. I was also concerned that without being able to capture a city, I would have nowhere to heal. With the 4 muskets being in one ship, I basically had to pick a site in range of that ship. The healing question got me thinking about how I could clear a spot for my one city. I certainly couldn’t afford to have it flip! So I took a printed screenshot, and a pencil, and started looking at the cultural borders of the cities. Here is a much cleaner looking map, with my observation:


    Most of the Odan cities had already expanded borders to a range of 3, but Azuchi had a radius of 4. (Each colored line represents the borders generated by each city). This was causing a lot of overlap, and so I realized that most landing sites were within the borders of at least 2 cities, meaning even after landing it would take several turns to clear an area for healing, and building my city. However, there was one spot (the six tiles marked in Red) where I would only be within the borders of one city, Azuchi (the capital, ironically). (The blue lined tile to the East would be auto-filled by being surrounded). If I could land here, then destroy Azuchi the next turn, I would have a small ‘sanctuary’ outside his borders to heal, and could build a city with a reduced risk of flipping. Not only that, but it offered hills for defensive bonuses, and would take away his Iron source as well, preventing him from building new Samauri or Agashirus. (He didn’t have Saltpeter, so I wasn’t worried about muskets). Afterwards, it struck me as being similar to a jeweler preparing to cut a diamond, looking for where to strike it to reveal the facets. This was the ‘fault line’ I would hit, and try to crack him open. (For all the effort, it was a short-lived sanctuary, as a couple turns later the borders of Nagoya expanded to 4 :( , which would have filled it all in, but by then my settler had landed and I built New Atlanta).


    Anyway, I was now ready to play the game. So on the inherited Turn 0 (950AD) I sold world maps around, which had apparently been held back, since they were quite valuable. I also sold Iron to the Greeks. I also debated selling contact with the Oda. Their troops on the Barb island were only 2 tiles from the Babylonians, but no one had contact with the Oda yet! If this were a normal game, I think I would have declared war immediately, killed the Oda forces on the barb island, and then I wouldn’t have to worry about a rep hit from having the frigates in his coastal waters. For that matter, I could then destroy the Oda and not had any attitude hits for razing his cities, either. However, based on the challenge, we had to wait and declare honorably, so I would have to take my chances as to whether the Babs got contact with the Oda. If I got lucky, maybe they would be afraid of the barbs and not move, and I could kill off the Odan units next turn.With my new cash, I rushed or short-rushed 5 galleons and 4 frigates back in the homeland. I also paid to investigate Azuchi (the capital), which had 7 vet Samauri, a bowman, and a settler. I also investigated Moriyama-ku, to get an idea of their non-capital defenses, and it had a Samauri and 2 Agashiru Spears. I moved cav and muskets to the ports which would build galleons next turn, and I was ready. In between turns, I could see some forces doing random patrols, but not too many. The Babs killed the barb volcano for me, but of course got contact with the Oda.

    960AD (1) Move frigates, Declare War! I follow and kill his two known frigates, although I lose one of mine in the north. I also kill his forces on Barb Island, and land troops on Kiku island near Scandanavia. Now I am ready for D-Day. My initial assault includes the 4 muskets, 17 cav, and the army. The rest of the ships should be able to land next turn. I had a couple double back after landing, and transferred troops from ships at sea to coastal ships, so I could start moving empty galleons back for reinforcements.
    IBT: LOTS of movement. Man, does he have a lot of troops, this could get ugly. Thankfully, the army acts as a big “Do Not Disturb” sign on my stack, and there are no counterattacks.

    970AD (2) Bachs and Newtons both complete. Always nice, Bachs should help offset any war weariness, except we are a Monarchy, not used to that very often! Time to start clearing out a path to Azuchi. For now, I avoid the hills and hit the grasslands, killing 5 Agashiru, 4 Kensai, 2 Bowmen, and a Horse. I also am greeted by Robert E. Lee, who offers to lead an army if I can give him a place to rest (i.e. a city). The rest of my forces land, including my settler, so next turn we should be ready. To the west, my cav attacks the small island of Kita-Ku, and I kill the defenders, a Samauri and 2 Agashiru, at the cost of a Cav.
    IBT: The army is still covering the landing zone, so the AI contents himself with picking off a couple of exposed Cavs. (I tried to ensure all attackers either hit stacks or could get back to the army, but nobody’s perfect!)

    980AD (3) New Atlanta is founded on the beachhead, and short-rushes a barracks. Lee forms a Cav army. Time for the assault on Azuchi. It’s a bloody battle, as I have to first clear out a grassland tile en route. Altogether, I destroy 6 Samauri, 3 Agashiru, and 2 Kensai, at at the cost of 3 cav, but am rewarded again with Sherman, who forms another Cav army, and serves to cover our attacking forces on Azuchi’s ruins. Clearing more grassland areas yields 6 more Agashiru and 5 Kensai, for the loss of another cav.
    IBT: The Oda again avoid the armies, and attack New Atlanta instead, at the cost of 2 Samauri for a musket.

    990AD (4) More meat-grinding in the killing fields, I have tried to position my armies on the hills, and attack down to the grasslands:



    This turn, the result is one Otomo, 8 Kensai, 11 Agashiru, a Samauri, a horse, and a bowman, all for the loss of 1 cav and the gain of Grant, who forms another army. As shown above, I had also started moving north, but it was a little too soon. New Atlanta gets rushed walls.
    IBT: The Oda are no longer in fear of the Armies, and I lose Washington’s army (on the Azuchi ruins),and a cav, to counterattacks, although he loses 7 Samauri, 2 Kensai, and 2 bowmen.

    1000AD (5) More kill zone attacks, with the armies it is a slaughter now, I kill 5 Kensai, 13 Agashiru, a bowman, and a Samauri. MacArthur emerges, and after some debate, I decide to use him to rush the Pentagon in New Atlanta. I want it to generate some culture, and 3 4-cav armies are less vulnerable than 4 3-cav armies.
    IBT: Counterattacks are slowing down, I lose a Musket and a Cav to his 6 Kensai and a bowman.

    1010AD (6) We finally have some breathing room, the fields are starting to clear up:


    I kill an Otomo, 4 Kensai, 2 Agashiru, 3 Bowman, and for the first time this game, there are no visible units in the open! Patton arrives to form a 4th Cav army, and attack forces are positioned on the Coal Hill, and north along the river.
    IBT Lose one musket, killing a bowman.
     
  7. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

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    1020AD (7) We can finally switch over to the offensive, but the clock is already ticking. At Yokkachi, I lose a cav vs. a Samauri and 3 Agashiru. That was easier than I thought, and from the coal hill I can also hit Nagoya, where I lose 2 cav vs. 2 Samauri, 2 Agashiru, and 3 Kensai. In the north, at Moriyama, the fighting is tougher. I lose a cav, and an army is down to 1hp, vs. 2 Samauri, 4 Agashiru, 2 Kensai, and a Horse.
    IBT: Nothing!

    1030AD (8) Mostly move and heal, position two stacks forward. In the north, I have a 10/15 army, 5 elites, 4 vets, and 6 regulars (some of my reinforcements from home). In the south, I have two armies (14/17, 9/19), 5 elites, 3 vets, and 5 regular.
    IBT: No counterattacks from the Oda, but we have visitors:



    1040AD (9) Like I need another headache. I try to distract them with an alliance vs. the Oda (for 20gpt). Otherwise, I put some muskets on the hills and press on. Koromo falls, as I lose 2 cav vs. 3 Samauri and a bow, and I take Ogaki without loss vs. 2 Samauri, an Agashiru and an Otomo.
    IBT: Greeks declare war, :mad: their archer and longbow suicide on fortified muskets behind walls.

    1050AD (10) Ise is also bloodless, killing 2 Samauri,. I start with 5 frigates attacking Suzuka for a total of 1hp, and I lose 3 cav vs. 2 Samauri, an Agashiru and a Bow. I have enough attackers left, but Handa’s borders must have expanded to 4 in time to block me, and I can’t finish in 10:


    IBT A bow kills a cav.

    1060AD (11) My combined fleet is now up to 9 frigates, who still inflict only 1hp :( . However, Handa has no chance, and I kill the Last Samauri and 2 Agashiru, with no losses. My ending army includes 5 Armies, and 15 Elites left on Oda’s island:
     
  8. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

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    This scenario also marked my most extensive use of Ship Chaining to get reinforcements over from home. I was able to get a steady stream of 2-3 shiploads of troops per turn over, mostly cav from Scandanavia and the mainland, but also more muskets to cover stacks, and some cannons, although they were not really able to keep up with the cav. I rarely have done it on this scale, although I have sometimes used it for short “ferry” operations (like between the mainland and Scandanavia), especially with the modified Naval Movement costs. But in this campaign, I saw it as a way to get the first waves of reinforcements over 3-4 turns earlier than direct sailing. I had 2-3 galleons based out of home ports, to take units to the edge of the sea, then another set to pick them up and start the crossing, then more to cross, etc, while empty ships would sail back to take their place in the line:



    Once they got close to Oda, I kept 5-6 of the original invasion galleons posted in the sea tiles. They could get troops loaded onto them, sail into New Atlanta, the troops could move immediately, and then they would move back out to sea. It wasn’t set up perfectly, but it worked, and by turn 7 (1020AD) newly produced cavs from Washington could attack Nagoya the same turn! The fact Cracker had named most of the galleons made it easier (and lead me to believe he made use of it himself!).

    Overall, a great “special mission”, and I appreciate the challenge. I think if I had positioned my troops better at the end, I could have hit Handa on turn 10 as well, but after all the early work on mapping the cultural boundaries, I wasn’t paying enough attention at the end to see Handa had expanded. Finishing in 8 seems amazing. :goodjob:
     
  9. denyd

    denyd Emperor

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    First a picture of the results:



    First let me thank Cracker for this excellent challenge. I finished GOTM 28 early and have had quite a bit of time to play with this to get the optimum solution. I played this 4 or 5 times, each ending in the 12+ turns range. The problem was always the same, after taking the first city, the Oda counterattack left you waiting for reinforcements to arrive to restart the offensive. Even with the ocean railway, that meant 4 turns of ship movement each way. I tried rushing a bunch of extra galleys and that still left me at 12 turns. Then the light bulb went on and I was able to finish in 4 TURNS!!!

    Now that I have your attention, let me say I'd never think of using this tactic in a regular game as you leave yourself very venerable to a long-term loss, but since the goal was Oda elimination and nothing else, this solution worked. I spent the first 2 turns (0-1) lining up my invasion force for Moriyama-ku. I wanted a city with a harbor for this to work honorably (a requirement). During this time I switched off research and rushed as many cavalry as possible and moved all troops and workers to one small city on each continent. Then in turn 2 when my deals with the Oda had expired, I declared war on them. I gave resources to Babylon and Greece to join me. Then I landed my invasion force of 38 units next to Moriyama-ku. I also landed a 4-unit force on the island east of Viking land to take Kita-ku On turn 3 my force was able to Moriyama-ku with only a single loss. I also took Koromo & Kita-ku. But for my plan to succeed I needed a GL and none had yet been born in spite of my using only elites, so my elite cavalry had to expand the attack zone until finally GL Lee (my only one) was born. He returned immediately to Moriyama-ku and rushed a Palace. My troops survived the minimal Oda counterattack. The next turn with nearly all off my units in 3 small cities on the other three islands, my plan began. I gifted those 3 cities to the Iroquois and magically my troops were transported to my new capital. Using the workers to rail paths in my lands and the one-move units to clear the paths, my cavalry took the Odan cities one at a time starting with Azuchi. That must have been a collection point for the Oda as I had to kill over 20 units in the city losing 20 my self. In the end with the workers laying rail paths to save movement points the cavalry were able to complete taking all the cities during turn 4, preventing any Odan counterattacks.

    Of course now the rest of my empire is completly unguarded, but my concentrating on muskets and science, an infantry defense force could be in place in 10-12 turns.
     
  10. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

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    Denyd,

    That's certainly thinking 'outside the box'! It could be a problem if the Iroquois decide they don't like you, but hopefully they wouldn't know how to teleport units to your homeland! I was confused for a moment about your comment "I wanted a city with a harbor for this to work honorably" but I assume that is so you could keep your ongoing trade agreements, right? Also, you mentioned the two existing deals with the Oda, but since they were gpt coming to us, I don't think breaking them a turn early affected my rep.

    Also, regarding the sea highway, it was possible to move units from home to Oda in 1 turn, but the ships must load/unload in the same sea tile. If you wake units, and then move them to an adjacent ship, that is considered their move for the turn, and they can't do it again.
     
  11. denyd

    denyd Emperor

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    Justus II,

    I tried the sea railway approach in one of my earlier attempts, but I just couldn't move enough troops to make it work quickly enough.

    Since I was able to produce 10-15 muskets in 2 turns, I would have a sufficient defense force in the homeland to wait for some of the military to be ferried back from the Oda lands in the unlikely event that the Iroquois decided to get ambitious. If I had been a little more calculating, I probably could have got another GL and returned him the homeland and move the palace back there and repeated the transporter process. This tactic may have to be discussed as one to be banned in future GOTM's as it does give the human a potential huge advantage over the AI.

    My reason for delaying the invasion for two turns was that I was not sure how the gpt deals were arranged and wanted to proceed in an honorable fashion and also to use those turns to position my troops and rush build additional cavalry.

    As for selecting a port city, the reason was two fold. First since I wanted to secure that the Babylonians & Greeks would be on my side I would need to be able to trade resources to them and those would need to be available to my capital. The second and more important reason was to have access to coal so that my workers would be able to build rails to speed my cavalry across the island.

    I must admit the more I thought about this problem, the more I became determined to "build a better mousetrap". I'm not sure if I would do this in a real game situation, but now that I've seen it's effectiveness, I might try it.
     
  12. akots

    akots Poet

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    Holy .... ! Sorry. Denyd, this is ingenious! I'm just thinking of how easy it was to win the game then. The situation was very similar in around 850AD. There were plently of cavalries and leaders in my game. And little troops in the homeland but very many in the Viking continent. And many were halfway through Greece looking greedily into Iroquois. Just make sure there are no deals with Iroquois, build a capital in Oda island, give to Iroquois a city with all troops (just leave 3-4 cavs around to retake it), get them to Oda and finish them in 3-4 turns. At the same time get another leader on the big continent, and repeat the trick with a city in Oda land. Then, declared to Iroquois, crush them in 4-5 turns retaking these gifted cities, and win 300 years earlier! And no violation of Palace jump rule! And no hassle with 20 galleons!
     
  13. mad-bax

    mad-bax Deity GOTM Staff

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    denyd: :worship:

    That must have felt good. :)

    Congratulations, and well played!
     
  14. denyd

    denyd Emperor

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    Akots: Very true, finishing this one would follow a similar path. Load up the Elite Cavalry on the nearby galleons and send them to Iroquois land. Once the first GL is produced, rush a palace and transport the balance of the troops from Oda land by gitfing a small city to the Zulu. During the sea movement, there should be enough time to produce a couple of cavalry to reclaim the couple of cities donated to the Iroquois for the Oda Invasion. Once the bulk of the troops are on the New World, taking enough land to break the domination barrier should happen pretty quickly. Probably a domination victory by 1200 AD.

    MB: You bet that felt good. I probably tried 4-5 times to find a better way to make this happen in the 9 turn range that Cracker accomplished. Since he didn't use the little trick I did, I'm still quite interested in seeing what he did to speed the victory.
     
  15. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

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    I hope this isn't taken wrong, as the technique was certainly very creative, kudos to Denyd for that. But I would certainly hope that this kind of "teleportation" would NOT be allowed in a regular GOTM, as it seems very exploitative.

    As currently written, this probably true. After all, in this case, you are using the palace for the free troop jump, I guess it would depend if you then build a core around the palace. But you are not taking advantage of the Corruption bug, just the "Free troop jump from gifted cities" bug!
     
  16. cracker

    cracker Gil Favor's Sidekick

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    Denyd,

    Another opportunity to develop some real play skills squandered by the temptation to just "get over" and abuse the game.

    Too bad. You missed a fun challenge.
     
  17. denyd

    denyd Emperor

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    Cracker,

    I didn't miss the fun. I played this 4-5 times, enjoying each attempt to improve my strategy. My transporter solution was the only one to complete the conquest in less than 12 turns. I'm very interested in seeing how the island could be taken in under 10. This wasn't an attempt to gimmick the game, just an 'out of the box solution', after trying conventional methods and not being satisified.
     
  18. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

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    @Cracker,

    When will you reveal the "textbook" solution? ;) I am interested to see how you were able to pull it off. I also tried another attempt, with multiple landing zones, using the Army to cover one, and the 4 muskets on the hill to cover the second, thinking I could break out faster, but they avoided the army again, and overran my second landing. I lost all 4 muskets and 12 cav :o Ouch! Less than optimal. :lol:

    Also, regarding the Palace rule, I certainly think this should be considered an exploit, and against the "spirit" of the new, untested palace jump rule. for an actual GOTM. I remember Akots saying that regardless of how it was written, there would be new exploits developed, and that is probably always going to be true. Sad to say, but it does lend support to the idea of just banning all palace jumps, although I think they are an important strategic aspect of the game. Tough call, I don't envy Ainwood!
     
  19. denyd

    denyd Emperor

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    Justus II, the best result I had pre-palace jump was to rush 8 galleys on turn 1 and use them to create a second front. This group (12 muskets & 20 cavalry) arrives about turn 7. I landed them on the mountain NE of Ogaki and the same time I landed my other force on the iron hill SW of Azuchi. I was able to spilt the counterattacking Odan forces that way and managed to complete the conquest 5 turns later (turn 12). I think I might have been able to shave a turn off that by switching landing sites, but I'm not sure the Azuchi group would have survived the Odan first strike with enough troops to be effective. Also the fact that there were no workers available meant using roads instead of rails for movement which slowed reaching the NW cities by a turn.

    Edit: I agree with banning a palace jump for any reason except setting up a productive core of cities. My use of the palace transporter was a one time event. I really can't see myself using it in a GOTM anyway. In fact, one of my (many) shortcomings in Civ is I tend to play the game as if the units/cities matter to me (as if this was RL). I prefer to bombard opponent units and capture cities intact without suffering any losses, treating my playing pieces like real troops.
     
  20. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

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    Denyd,
    I agree getting reinforcements over was a critical part of this game, but I think you could have gotten them there faster if you'd landed first and sent some empty galleons back to set up the ship chain. I landed some of my forces the first turn, on the hill, covered by the army (the AI rarely attacks a stack with an army), and sent those empty transports back. Basically, turn 1 my new galleons are loaded with whatever vets I could scrape out of my homeland garrisons, and barely get out to sea. Meanwhile, my main force begins landing. Ships that couldn't reach the landing spot move adjacent to now empty ships, and transfer troops, leaving them closer to open ocean and empty. Turn two, they head West, while my reinforcing ships head east. On turn 3, they link up, and transfer the first set of reinforcements. Meanwhile, I continued to rush ships (2-3/turn) to keep the process moving. I also stationed some empty galleons just off the sea tiles near Oda. Now, on turn 4, those troops who have been transferred are able to move on fresh galleons to the edge of the Oda sea, on top of other empty galleons, transfer to the empty galleons, who move into my new city, unload, and since they haven't moved yet (transfers don't count as a move if they are in the same tile, only if they are in adjacent), they can move out and attack on turn 4! And from that point on, reinforcements can be built on the homeland, rail to port, board galleons, and through a series of chains, arrive in Oda to fight the same turn. (Of course that's why I think Ship Chains are an exploit also, but they are an identified and allowed one for GOTM). ;)

    I appreciate your comments about the palace jump, glad you agree. I also agree with your feeling constrained by RL concerns for my "people", that's why up until the last few GOTMs I could never bring myself to move MY Palace, that's my ancestral home! I have also had trouble with razing or starving down cities to avoid flips, although a few really bad flips (especially in the tournament 6-4 Iroquois game and GOTM26) have helped me to rationalize my retribution. :mad:

    I am somewhat more ruthless with my own troops though. While I certainly try to plan the most efficient attack strategy, once battle is joined I am more of a Grant than a McClellan, and when it comes down to it, I'll throw the walking wounded in if I have to to secure the objective. That's one of the reasons I have such a problem accumulating the kind of elite forces that Cracker gave us in this game. I know that good leader development requires careful shepherding of your elites, but in the heat of the battle, a 3/5 elite cav has the same combat effectiveness as a fresh regular, and I gamble too much with them. Oh, well, they say that admitting you have a problem is the first step on the road to recovery! ;)
     

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