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Gotm27 - The Last Samurai - Quick Game

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Quick Games' started by cracker, Jan 24, 2004.

  1. denyd

    denyd Emperor

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    Justus II, I thought about that, but wanted to force the Oda to have to attack at two places at the same time, so my ships remain loaded with the initial invasion force and are not able to move to complete the ocean railway (OR).

    My other thought was to get an ROP with Oda, to allow the initial troops to unload and the ships to move to complete the end of the OR, but that would be a dastardly way to begin a war.

    My other thought was to gift techs to Steam Power & coal (if they needed it) to the Oda so they could rail the connections for me, but that was going to consume too many turns to work.

    Under normal circumstances, a long war in Monarchy is not very painful, so I would take my time a protect lose as few units as possible in taking the Oda, so that the survivors would be ready for the invasion of the other continent. But in these conditions, where there were no future campaigns, wounded units were used to attain the goal ASAP.
     
  2. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    The only arguments against ship chaining are that it's disallowed by RBCiv rules, and the AI doesn't do it, which doesn't seem to be a powerful argument to me. It seems to me that an exploit is the use of a program bug to gain excessive advantage, out of balance with the resources required.

    Ship chaining allows troops to get across the world in five, two or one years, just as rails allow troops to get across the continent in the same time. What's wrong with that? It's not free - it takes ships and considerable feats of mental gymnastics ... on my part, at least. And I don't believe it's only a programming bug that permits ship-to-ship transfers at sea.

    You might as well say that we shouldn't stack workers more than two deep to build rails or clear pollution in a single turn. Or prebuild ... or a hundred other things we do that the AI doesn't.
     
  3. Dianthus

    Dianthus Small but hardy

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    Another thing about ship chaining, it doesn't give an increase in the number of units moved per turn, it just decreases the time between the units departing and arriving.
     
  4. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

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    I know that everyone has their own definition of exploits, and I certainly didn't want to revive that discussion, that's why it was meant as a light-hearted comment. I've never liked the "AI won't do it, it's an exploit" argument, as you mentioned, the AI doesn't do a lot of things humans can. On the other hand, the AI never misclicks, forgets about units on goto, or leaves cities ungarrisoned either, all of which I have done my share of! ;)

    My only 'problem' with ship-chaining (other than the incredible amount of clicking involved), and the closest thing to my definition of an exploit, is it is using the game mechanics to do something that I don't think they were intended to do. Ship-to-ship transfers I think were intended, but I think should use the units movement allowance, so it can only happen once. But its a)not overpowering, b)justifiably realistic (you're right, trains should not be infinitely faster than ships), and c)ALLOWED, so in GOTM terms it's not an exploit, and I'm not here to argue that it should be. As I said, it's usually more work than it's worth, so I rarely use it, but I thought this 'challenge' showed a good opportunity to test it out to it's full potential.

    Now the Palace Jump Teleportation technique, OTOH, probaby merits some discussion....
     
  5. denyd

    denyd Emperor

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    But the Palace Jump Teleportation is currently legal...

    It did take quite a bit of effort to wake all the units and move them to those couple of cities as well as the countless scrolling clicks to get to the next worker to rail a tile so that the military units could advance on, and of course the RNG luck to get the Great Leader that made the Palace Jump possible in the first place.

    However, all that said I really don't like either ship chaining or palace teleporation and have rarely (if ever) used either in a GOTM.
     
  6. mad-bax

    mad-bax Deity GOTM Staff

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    I agree with Alan here, and nearly posted the same thing earlier today.

    Exploiting obvious bugs in the programming should not be allowed. So then draw up a list.

    Infinite shields under mobilisation
    Remote palaces
    .
    .
    .

    eventually you get to RCP, free palace jumping and the distinction then becomes blurred between bug and limitation of the software.

    Then purists argue that nothing should be allowed that the AI doesn't do. So no inchworming workers, pre-building, palace jumping of any description or ship chaining. Heck they even mine cattle around the capital so no settler factories. How about that?

    Drawing a line is difficult, but it is drawn and denyd did not break the rules. If bamspeedy or Sir Pleb or Moonsinger or DaveMcW and half a dozen others had come up with it I think the reaction may have been different. Denyd used a known property of the program to accomplish the task set in the quickest time. That's all there is to it. Yes it's a trick, but so is ship chaining, pre-building, free-jumping and many other accepted practices.

    Of course, the spirit of what cracker wanted in this challenge was not adhered to, but IMO he asked for it by setting a target, and a target set by him has a great big flashing light on it... which is why I still intend to take it up as soon as I get back from drowning worms at the weekend.
     
  7. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

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    I'm afraid that what I was said has been taken wrong. I never said Denyd broke the rules, and in fact gave him credit for an innovative solution. This was a quick challenge, and he found a way to beat it that is currently within GOTM rules. I also said specifically that even under the new Palace Jump rule, what he did would be legal. I certainly hope Denyd didn't take it as anything personal.

    I do think, however, that the technique he used could be considered an exploit, and that it would be a good idea to discuss it, and if so, get a ruling on whether it is to be allowed in GOTM or not. Akots made a point earlier about how this could have been used to accelerate a conquest victory in this GOTM by probably a couple centuries at least. I thought that it would be a good idea to discuss whether or not this technique should be allowed in the GOTM while it is still a hypothetical, and issue a ruling for everyone, rather than after reviewing someone's results who already used it, and gained an advantage over everyone else who was unaware of it, when hard feelings or personal pride/results might be involved.

    My opinion is it should not be allowed, but that's just my opinion, and it's really up to the GOTM staff to decide. I just thought this would be a good opportunity to start a discussion.
    :)
     
  8. denyd

    denyd Emperor

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    I agree with you Justus II (and I didn't take personal), this should have a go / no-go on it before the next GOTM is out rather than after. It's much easier (as with the FP move) to ban something upfront than to disqualify people after it's been used (easier to ask forgiveness than to get permission :D ).

    I do think it's an exploit and personally won't use it in a GOTM whether it's allowed or not (similar to ship hopping, ROP Rape and capital abandoning).

    This technique is magnified on maps similar to the last couple played (unlike the Med Melee or the Mongol Hordes) and could change domination / conquest completion dates by 100's of years.

    Depending on what the next map looks like, we could see a lot of this technique causing an imbalance in performance, so let me be the first to propose the "Deny the denyd Palace Transporter Rule". Still allow for Palace moves via GL's but no city gifting after the palace moves. I really never saw a good reason to allow city gifting anyway (but that's another issue)
     
  9. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    I've flagged up this discussion for the gotm staff to deliberate on.

    I've used this once before myself in the MB4 SG, not in a gotm, as a lateral approach to get out of a jam. In that case it gave us an instant Dunkirk evacuation. However, I agree that it seems unreal and looks like a good candidate for a gotm ban. Once more, there will be grey interpretation areas no doubt!
     
  10. civ_steve

    civ_steve Deity Retired Moderator GOTM Staff

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    My 2 1/2 cents worth regarding the Palace Teleporter: the 'Dunkirk Evacuation' seems at least plausible - you've given a city to some other civ, who guarantees your battered force safe passage to your capital. Another use would be to rush units from some far-off front to defend your capital, the 'Rapid Capital Reinforcement' technique; this could be useful under dire circumstances, but it's hard to see how gifting a city should enhance your units' ability to move, so this seems somewhat abusive. And then there's the mass movement of units from useless cities to a far-off capital on a hostile shore, the 'Capital Invasion Force'; this is totally abusive.

    (Firaxis could fix this by moving units in a gifted city to the nearest city of your civ, and possibly imposing a % chance of death to each unit; in conjuntion, maybe provide the ability to teleport a small # of units, possibly government based, to the capital each turn.)

    To quote SirPleb's article on Leader Generation: "Each time that you try for a leader there is only a small chance of getting one. So game strategies which rely on getting a leader quickly at a particular time should be avoided - there's too much risk that it will take a long time to get one when you need it." Assuming 20 Elite Victories (I'm not sure of the total number of Elite Cav that are committed, and not all will be Victorious at any rate), the odds of getting a leader are about 72.5% (non-militaristic, no Heroic Epic), so about 3/4 of the time you could get a palace built and teleport lots of units over, and 1/4 of the time you can't. What would happen then?
     
  11. cracker

    cracker Gil Favor's Sidekick

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    I would say that the palace jump teleportation is not currently legal based on my previous determination in March and April of last year that new forms of clearly exploitive play would not be allowed even if no prior rule existed.

    In the form you used it it clearly was a lame excuse to avoid basic play concepts and I would not attempt to rationalize the clear abuse of under thought out programming features.

    If I reviewed the main GOTM games and found evidenc of this feature, I would exclude the games immediately and without hesitation.
     
  12. grahamiam

    grahamiam In debt to Mr. Geisel

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    I think it's safe to say that this can be agreed to by all. Unfortunately, this thread has turned into a discussion regarding this troop-warp tactic, rather than the proper technique for conquering the Oda ASAP. I am much more interested in seeing how Colonel Cracker, in charge of the massive American calvary task force, handled the Oda. :yeah:

    My entry shows the absolute worst way to go about conquering the Oda. I may try again using Justin II's technique of landing everyone on the same square (if I can find some time).

    The one and only try that I was able to perform had 2 split forces. The southerly force was 16cavs, 4 muskets, and 1 settler and landed on a hill. The northern force was Washington's army and the rest of the elite cav's, landing on a northern mountain. I also had rushed a bunch of troop ships and was planning on getting them into the new town.

    However, dozens of samuri decimated the southern group. I was left with 3 cav's (-1hp, 2 @ -3hp) and the settler. This group pillaged the hill, then meekly escaped onto the adjacent ship. The northern group faired better, destroying two towns on the 1st turn and 2 on the second turn. After each turn, wounded units jumped back on the ships to avoid the samari rush. This turned into a really poor hit-and-run stratagy and it took me forever to conquer the island.
     
  13. civ_steve

    civ_steve Deity Retired Moderator GOTM Staff

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    Having finished GOTM28 a little early, I started this scenario this weekend, and finished it early this morning. I assumed the Predator rules, razed all captured Odan cities, and only established 1 city on the Oda continent, none on the Oda island and 1 on the Barb island which I don't think impacts the play.

    I didn't change anything in the saved turn, scoped out the situation and pressed enter. I started play on Turn 1, in 960 AD. I changed several builds to Galleon on the NE corner of the American Continent, I changed 1 city on the East side of the Viking continent to Galleon, set research to 0 (for this short scenario, I wanted the cash) and set several others to Cavalry. I decided that my invasion spot (marked on the map below) would be the hills tile 2 spaces SE of Azuchi; the hills provides good defense, the Capital is my first target, and this location is convenient to ship reinforcements to. I tend to be fairly careful when doing invasions, so I wanted a strong force able to withstand considerable attack by the defenders.

    In 970, after moving all units out of Odan territory, I declared war, and landed 2 forces; the major one on the hills space I described, and a minor one, 8 units (2 Galleons full) on the Odan Island just East of the Viking Continent. Lots of units counterattacked on Oda's turn; I estimate about 10-12 units were lost on each side, but I was able to establish New Atlanta on the Odan continent in 980 (which promptly rushed Walls at 2x cost), and my Cavalry destroyed 11 Odan units that were in the Grassland spaces adjacent to New Atlanta. My forces were in place, fortified and had a friendly town to heal in.

    Meanwhile my minor invasion cleared the Odan Island. Having read JustusII's report, I don't believe I built as many Galleons as did he. I used this Island as a staging area to send troops to the Odan continent; I had 9 Galleons set up to ferry troops over 3 legs; this allowed me to move 12 units every other turn to the beachhead, and they dropped reinforcements off in 1010, 1030 and 1050. I also had 2 Galleons on the Viking Continent ferrying units over to the formerly Odan Island, and 1 Galleon was in a place where it could ferry 2 boatloads of troops from the main continent to the Viking Continent. To supplement this chain, I had built a few more Galleons such that I landed 7 more boatloads of troops on the continent, 4 of them at one time forming a 2nd invasion near Yokkachi in 1040.

    Here is a map showing the major steps, and when each city fell:



    After Walls, New Atlanta rushed (at 2x cost) a Barracks, then started on a harbor. After having lost 10-12 units the first turn, I only lost 6 Cav to Oda's 15 lost Attackers, once I was fortified in the Hills. The turn after that, when Walls were in place, the Oda lost 11 while I lost 2 (but one was that initial Army, which was partially healed.) I continue to destroy small stacks near New Atlanta, while my units heal and reinforcements start to arrive, in 1010.

    In 1020, I threw every available, healed Cav, and even some Cav down to 3 hps, at Azuchi, and it barely held on (there was a 1 hp Samurai showing, so I sent a 2hp Cav at it, lost, and now it was a 2 hp Samurai; that's when I stopped.) The next assault, in 1030, takes it and Azuchi is no more. This opens the door to further aggressions. 12 more Reinforcements arrived in 1030. In 1040 a 2nd landing force of 16 units lands near Yokkachi, several Cav go north and destroy Moriyama-ku, and a penetrating 20 high stack of Cav head east to menace Ise and Ogaki. For some reason Oda puts a 20+ high stack of Agashiru Spearman in the hills near New Atlanta to do pillaging; I send some Cav behind them to pillage and cut them off from the remaining cities so they can't reinforce them. In 1050, another 12 reinforcements arrive at New Atlanta, the 2nd Amphib beachhead force, with help from the pillaging cav, destroy Yokkachi and Nagoya, and my forward Cav SOD destroy Ogaki and Ise, positioning 11 Cav to menace Handa and Suzuka. A small force of Cav tries to take Koroma, and is turned back. In 1060, the Cav SOD destroys Handa and Suzuka, leaving only Koroma, which is surrounded by 17 Cav. In 1070 (turn 12) Koroma and the Oda are no more.

    A couple of things I could have done better: Nagoya is within striking distance from New Atlanta, while Koroma is not. I could have finished one turn earlier by leaving Nagoya to the 1050 reinforcements, and sent the pillaging Cav and unused 2nd Beachhead Cav to Koroma in 1050 for a 1060 assault. And I should have had a couple of Galleons in New Atlanta to ferry the reinforcements in on the turn of arrival; the 3 step ferry distance was exactly 24 movement points long so the Troops had to step off the ships on the last turn making them incapable of moving further the turn they arrived; a couple of Galleons in New Atlanta could have brought them in that last space, allowing them to be used 1 turn earlier. (In general, this would be better form, but I don't think I'd have benefitted in this circumstance.)

    I was somewhat tentative at the beginning, but an initial assault on Azuchi might have cost me New Atlanta. I felt I had to hold defensively until reinforcements began to arrive. (Since then, I've had another thought that I might check out later.)
     
  14. grahamiam

    grahamiam In debt to Mr. Geisel

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    Ok, after initially being humiliated a couple of times in this scenario, I tried to give it one last kick last weekend. It looks like I was able to kick it pretty good, using extreme ship chaining and relying on an AI quirk.

    Preflight check: We currently have qty (2) gpt deals set to expire in 2 turns with Oda. Also, no one knows the Oda exept us, even the Babylonians with their units on barb island. I move the musket protecting the workers up to prevent Oda and Baby from meeting.

    Cities Switched to Galleon (rushed): Miami, Denver, Baltimore, Oxford, Las Vegas, Cleveland, Linkoping, Vasteras. Find a vet horseman in Cleveland so I upgrade to Cav. Move vet Frigate towards Oda mainland (away from Kita-Ku). 2 Cav on barb island attack (1 barb horse & volcano), -1hp & -2hp respectively. Settler joins Linkoping, Bjjoerg Point, and Uppsala to give in an effort to Americanize (unfortunately, no McDonald's unit) Find Olympia Galleon in Uppsala, Load with 3 vet cav's and vet musket and send West. Disband regular pike in Pittsburg to get Frigate in 1T; Hurry ironclad in Nottingham. 3 gold left in the treasury.

    Reset slider: 10.0.0 (+717gpt, up to +725 with settlers joining Viking Cities)

    IBT: 1 cav promotes to elite, defeating 2 barb horses

    Turn 1: 960AD
    Oda still doesn't know anyone so I guess the moving the musket worked
    Galleons move into position around Oda. I have targeted a hill SW of Oda' Capitol.

    Turn 2: 970AD
    More Galleons move into position around Oda. I have targeted a hill SW of Oda' Capitol (iron hill). It is occuppied. Should I attack now or wait? Wait 1 turn. This will allow reinforcements to arrive anyway.

    Turn 3: 980AD
    Hills are still occupied. Well, no time like the present!
    Trade: Oda: WM & 85g for TM (this leaves them 0g), then declare war!
    Frigate bombards, misses; Land all troops NE of clam on grassland; Iron clad attacks Oda Junk and wins (-1hp). Frigate Bombards Moriyama, destroys barracks, 2nd Frigate bombards Mori, no damage.

    The insertion:
     
  15. grahamiam

    grahamiam In debt to Mr. Geisel

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    (Cont'd)
    I am expecting the worst. My split landings from previous tries in this scenario have all ended very badly for the group without the army. I now have placed all units in the same square so I am expecting an onslaught of Samuri and MI.

    IBT: nobody attacks! Actually, lots of units appear to run around in circles (ala the old X-Com shuffle). Amazing... my vision begins to darken... A grey alien dances in an out behind a fence but does not attack, just kind of teases me. On my turn, I have Bubba auto fire his laser rifle at the fence near the wheat field. I move Snipe around to see if he can get a bead on him...
    I snap out of it.

    Turn 4: 990AD
    Army attacks and kills Samuri in capitol (-5hp); Vet cav retreats from pike on hill (-3hp). This is too many units. I will generalize till the kills go down. Azuchi is captured (1 GL produced, 12 cav die, kill (I think) 3 archers, 14 pikes, 9 samuri, and 9 MI die in and around Azuchi. Settler moves over to iron hill, Azuchi is abandoned, and New Atlanta created. Rush Barracks. Create Lee's Army. Attack at Kita-Ku fails, leaving 1 samuri with 1hp left. I am rushing Galleons into New Atlanta as soon as I can to increase troop count.

    IBT: New Atlanta: 1 Musket dies, Oda loses 2 Samuri and 2 horses, my armies are severly damaged.

    Turn 5: 1000AD
    Kita-Ku Razed. Around New Atlanta: Lose 2 cavalry, about 3 red-lined retreats. Oda loses 5 longbows, 4 pikes, 5 samuri, and 3 MI. I rest a bunch of units so they heal with the barracks. New Atlanta is completely surrounded by Oda troops. Rush harbor (probably should have been walls at this point :rolleyes: )

    IBT: lose Lee's army, 4 cav's, and 2 muskets. Oda lose 1 horse, 3 longbows, 3 samuri, and 9 MI

    Turn 6: 1010AD
    Trades: Greece: 33gpt & WM for Iron; Zulu: wines, WM, 13gpt, 13g for Steam

    Lost 5 Cav. Kill 4 archers, 10 pikes, 2 samuri, and 7 MI. Continue landing troops into New Atlanta, my ship chaining is very disorganized but effective. Rush walls.

    IBT: Oda lose 1 MI, all Oda units basically retreat!

    Turn 7: 1020AD
    Move out to get ready for kill; I will follow a "hit 'em where they ain't" approach, attacking only cities and leaving the units running around to themselves unless they are blocking a specific path. Red indicates movement, yellow indicates attack path.
     
  16. grahamiam

    grahamiam In debt to Mr. Geisel

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    (Cont'd)

    Turn 8: 1030AD
    The attack follows the plan exactly. I hold onto cities until the end of the turn, allowing units a free pass to the next town (hope this didn't violate the rules) and speeding up the conquest. Also, I generate a GL "Sherman" during the battle of Koromo. He runs back to New Atlanta, forms an army out of 3/3 and 3/4 cavs, and moves out to postion against Ise. Actually, I flip/flopped the colors (sorry), red indicates attack path, yellow indicates movement.



    Turn 9: 1040AD
    The end comes with the capture of the last 3 cities



    Great setup Cracker :goodjob: Lots of fun while learning! It's amazing how a fully healed Army can convince the AI not to attack. In reality, the Oda should have laid it on since I only had 1 landing group but they didn't. Seeing all those troops move around, seemingly in circles, really took me back to X-Com and all those wonderful nightime missions. Maybe I'll try to find that version that works on windows...
     
  17. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

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    @Grahamiam,

    Great job. I wish I had thought to block the contact on Barb island, I only looked at killing them (not allowed) or allowing contact, I didn't think about blocking it myself. Also smart to send the Olympia Galleon west, quicker route, I slogged through all the coastal tiles and eventually added it to the chain.

    As for using their cities for a turn, I think it was against the "predator" rule, Cracker said he didn't keep them even for a second, but it sure would have helped. If I were playing this in a real game, I can see where that would be really valuable (especially since there was no contact, so no penalty for razing!).

    EDIT: I'm still waiting to hear from Cracker San to see his solution! ;)
     
  18. grahamiam

    grahamiam In debt to Mr. Geisel

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    Thanks :)
    Well, I'm not good enough to conquer that whole island in under 10 turns if I can't keep the cities during the turn they are captured. I never held them thru to the next turn. If I had destoyed them the instant they were captured, I would have needed at least 2 more turns, probably 3.

    As far as the Olympia Galleon goes, I actually sent her NW then N then E around the Viking island, on the ocean squares. The cav arrive just in time to take part in the capture of Mori.

    I am very curious to see how Cracker did it. I think I could learn some more valuable lessons.
     

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