GOTM69 Final Spoiler - Game Submitted

Hi neilmeister,
I've already noticed quite a few other civfanatics, who have young children...!

Just consider the following quote from reedmaster in the COTM39 Pre-Game discussion:

Gonna give this COTM a try. Not sure if I have the time to complete a game in a month or not. I know that sounds pathetic but working full-time, married, 2-year old toddler, baby on the way, and finishing the basement just doesn't leave much time. If you don't see me post a finished game, just assume I'm hanging drywall.

That's exactly me, too!! (Except that meanwhile I've given up on the basement and just let the chaos and the unopened boxes from the last move rest there in peace... :lol: )

Can it be that Civilization is just no longer the game of todays teenies and the only Civ3 fans left are the ones who played it during their student days and have now grown up? :confused:

And I guess, those kiddies that still do play Civilization, will rather be found in the Civ4 forums...!
 
Wow, Lanzelot, sounds like you had a very exciting game even if it didn’t have a happy ending :sad:. Some comments on your game:

I think I made the following strategic errors:
Expanding too fast so that the outer towns were undefended too long. Getting a town burned down by some wondering German archers really hurts

I don’t think there is any such thing as expanding too fast. I think you mentioned in your first spoiler that you refused to give Germany tribute – on Emperor +, you usually have to accede to demands early since they start with too many units. A few units is obviously a good idea, but usually you can either avoid war by giving in to demands or get peace before too much damage is done, but you can never make up for delaying expansion.

Didn't use any forestry operations. (Cracker's article on this was a revelation. Got to try this in my next game.)

Forestry operations are a lot better in Conquests than PTW because of the dramatically reduced time to chop. 10 worker turns is a lot to give up very early in the game, but it sometimes is worthwhile.

I never use pop rushing. But I guess pop rushing for an early granary might pay off in the long run?

Of course the answer to this is “it depends”. It is possible, but usually I find it is better not to pop rush in your core towns because you need them to grow, and the unhappiness forces you to increase luxury spending. However, I do often pop rush something like a galley every 10 turns in a corrupt town that I’m planning on keeping at size 1 for a while anyway, for example.

Spent too much time in the expansion phase. I guess on a small map instead of building all those granaries and settlers for a peaceful expansion I should rather have tried the "swordsman strategy" to convince one of the neighbors that I can take better care of his empire...

There’s certainly nothing wrong with expanding via the sword, but it depends on what you mean by “all those granaries”. Typically 1-2 granaries in your highest food cities are sufficient. Settlers and workers are always good though.

Spent too much time in Despotism! Should have gone faster for Monarchy and should have changed to it right after I got it. Going for a couple of Libraries and Marketplaces first doesn't pay off.

True that getting out of Despotism ASAP is almost always better than waiting. Typically, IMO Republic is better than Monarchy also (although you can find plenty of threads debating that). Finally, I noted you changed to Democracy later – researching Democracy and going through a second anarchy is almost never worthwhile (if you’re not religious). Pick Republic or Monarchy and stick with it.

And next I put too high a value on Armies and on Artillery. In C3C they are really useful, and as I didn't play a Vanilla/PTW game for ages, I was too used to the way they work in C3C. But not having the extra movement point as well as the slow healing rate makes Armies not so important in PTW! And it appears to me that Artillery is much more effective in C3C as well, is this possible? It takes ages to reduce a simply Infantry in a town from 4/4 to 1/4. Most of the shots are misses, the others mainly reduce the population or destroy the precious improvements like marketplaces, graneries, aquaeducts

Indeed, armies are not much use in PTW – I almost never build them. Great Leaders are much better used to rush Wonders (although if you were behind in tech, then that probably wasn’t an option :().

Artillery was changed between PTW and C3C. I think its “power” is the same, but in C3C it always targets units over improvements which makes it much more useful.

(Any comments are welcome! After all, I'm trying to learn something here...)

One other item I noted in your spoilers – you mentioned a couple times you were building Banks and Universities. You should almost never build both. Universities only help when your science slider is high, and Banks only help when your science slider is low so one of them is always useless. Either build Universities and not Banks and research like mad, or build Banks and not Universities and don’t bother with research – get your techs via pointy stick, purchasing, or stealing with all the cash you accumulate.

Good luck next month :)!
 
Can it be that Civilization is just no longer the game of todays teenies and the only Civ3 fans left are the ones who played it during their student days and have now grown up? :confused:

And I guess, those kiddies that still do play Civilization, will rather be found in the Civ4 forums...!

Hey I'm still a student. I'm 17. I probably should be getting out more or studying harder instead of civving though:p.

I tried civ 4 but it's hard to adjust and I'm just getting half decent at civ 3, so I'm still playing this one.

It's great that the rest of you manage to play despite all of your other commitments:crazyeye:.
 
Can it be that Civilization is just no longer the game of todays teenies and the only Civ3 fans left are the ones who played it during their student days and have now grown up? :confused:

I tried civ 4 but it's hard to adjust and I'm just getting half decent at civ 3, so I'm still playing this one.


I think these two comments probably sum up people playing civ3. They mostly started at civ1, 2 or 3 and did not like the way the look/feel changed so dramatically at civ4. I remember playing civ 1 until silly hours in the morning when I was 16. Like megistatos I tried civ4 once and I just hated it.:mad:
 
I don't want to risk that this turns into another Civ3 vs Civ4 debate, so here just one comment. It was the same with me: my brother-in-law bought Civ4 when it came out and I borrowed it and tried like two or three games and then got bored... Most of all I didn't like the way they changed some of the key features, like railroad, artillery, army groups, the government concept, some of the World Wonders and buildings. The new corruption concept is nice, though... And the idea of having different religions is interesting, too. But I hate it when the AI refuses to trade with me just because we have a different religion!

megistatos: good to have you with us! That makes me feel younger already... ;) And don't worry: like neilmeister I've been playing Civ1 for nights on end in 92-94 and still got my diploma... :old:
After that I had quit, though, and only got back to playing a couple of years ago, when my little brother-in-law had Conquests on his PC. I told him, I had already played this a decade ago. And at my next birthday he bought it for me as a present; since then I'm hooked again...

Ok, back to topic: A big :thanx: to Chamnix! I'll certainly try your tips in my next games! Here are a few more comments from my side:
  1. You were asking about whether I had the chance to use a MGL for a World Wonder. In fact I did. But in this game WWs had simply been completely out of my attention. In some earlier games I had made bad experiences with being beating by one of the AIs by just two/three rounds and loosing 200-300 shields for nothing... Therefore I thought, ok, in a serious game like GOTM I just can't afford that risk. So I didn't compete for any WWs and intended to let the AI build them and then capture them. However that plan didn't work out: I did manage to get 5-6 of them, but all were quite useless: the Lighthouse (no ships needed in this game!), the Great Wall, Shakespeare's Theater in a totally corrupt town at the other end of the world, etc... I got three MGL in that game and used all of them for Armies. So that was probably quite stupid... Should have build at least two useful Wonders with them. So I guess neglecting the World Wonders was another big mistake of mine in this game.
  2. Next I will adjust my Artillery tactics: I will keep a smaller size of them, which saves money, and then only use them defensively or for eliminating units standing around in the open countryside. Attacking towns really doesn't pay off: I had very low casulties, that's true, but by the time I captured them most towns had been reduced to size 1 and didn't have any buildings left.
  3. What I didn't understand was your advice to not build both, Banks and Universities! In all of my games so far I have made the experience that I couldn't afford Libraries without Marketplaces (and Universities without Banks). And a similar "dualism" seems to exist between Labs and Stockmarkets. Let me explain what I mean: let's assume I want to achieve the optimum tech output. If I would build only a couple of Granaries, Temples, Aquaeducts and then lots of Libraries (in all cities with more than 6 beakers per round), then my expenses are so high that I can move the science slider to at most 20%. This means the beaker output in most cities gets so low, that the Libraries have almost no effect. (So they basically only waste money.) But if I add Marketplaces to those productive towns, it has two benefits: first it increases happiness, so I can set my luxury slider down to 0%, which means I can increase the tech slider by 10-20%. And secondly the extra cash pays for all my expenses, so I can increase the tech slider by another 20%. Now the tech slider is at 50-60% and my Libraries are really effective! Later in the game, when University and Banks are available, I usally have a similar effect: without Banks I'm never able to set the tech slider high enough for the Universities to be effective! So even if it may sound paradoxical: I use Banks (and StockMarkets) to increase my science output! Without them I've never been able to achieve a science rate of "4 turns per tech". Perhaps you should try this in one of your games and see how you fare with it? I always thought it was a good strategy.
  4. Yep, keeping despotism for so long was a bad mistake. As to whether Republic or Monarchism is better, I think it depends. If there are close neighbours and lots of wars, Monarchy is probably better, because you can afford a larger military force and also save money by using "military police". However if there's a chance for a long period of peaceful development, then Republic is better because of the increased income. However, I always like Democracy best because compared to Monarchism it approximately doubles your income, and compared to Republic it's still 50% more. Combined with the University+Bank strategy this really rocks! In some of my more successful games I was able to keep up a 4 turn per tech rate and still get like 600-700 gpt, which could be used for investment in city improvements or for unit upgrade... So perhaps the best strategy is: get out of Despotism ASAP, then use Monarchy/Republic as a transitional phase and move to Democracy quickly. I think changing the government early on doesn't do much harm to your empire. In the current game I went to Monarchy too late and this had the side effect that my Democracy came to late, too. But the benefits of Democracy really pay off in the later stages of the game, when you have a big empire! The income is simply incredible, and don't forget about the fact that Democracy significantly reduces corruption and increases the Worker effectiveness!
  5. Finally I have a question about culture. Obviously a big mistake of mine in the current game was to neglect culture. But I still don't quite understand it, because I had lots of Libraries (for a scientific nation like Russia they are so cheap...!) In some other threads I read about the "1000 year effect for Temples" and that one or two early Temples help with not falling too far behind in culture. What did they mean by this? How exactly does this work?

Ok, thanks again to all and have fun starting GOTM70!
Lanzelot
 
Finally I have a question about culture. Obviously a big mistake of mine in the current game was to neglect culture. But I still don't quite understand it, because I had lots of Libraries (for a scientific nation like Russia they are so cheap...!) In some other threads I read about the "1000 year effect for Temples" and that one or two early Temples help with not falling too far behind in culture. What did they mean by this? How exactly does this work?

1000 years after any building or wonder is built, it's culture output doubles. Generally temples are the only culture builings around early on, and if you can get them quickly, their culture doubles within a short space of time(I think the first 1000 years takes only 20 turns, but this steadily increases). Two temples plus the palace will eventually give 10 culture per turn, which should be enough to keep level in culture or even take a lead(depending on difficulty). I would guess that Egypt built a few early temples and continued to produce culture(Egypt beat me in a GOTM this way once), and your libraries came too late to make much difference.

60 shields can be quite a lot early on though, but it's definitely a good idea for religious civs.

Note that the culture only doubles once for each building.
 
Thanks a lot, megistatos!

Spain happens to be religious, so I'll certainly try this out in GOTM70... :)
Good that I didn't have time to start it, yet. (That has been postponed until the weekend.)

I think, inbetween two settlers we always need to build something else in order to let the town grow. Perhaps that's the best occasion for getting in an occasional Temple!?

Up to now I did not build early Temples, because early on I usually don't have a problem with happiness. So looks like I need to adjust in this regard as well...

Lanzelot
 
What I didn't understand was your advice to not build both, Banks and Universities! In all of my games so far I have made the experience that I couldn't afford Libraries without Marketplaces (and Universities without Banks). And a similar "dualism" seems to exist between Labs and Stockmarkets. Let me explain what I mean: let's assume I want to achieve the optimum tech output. If I would build only a couple of Granaries, Temples, Aquaeducts and then lots of Libraries (in all cities with more than 6 beakers per round), then my expenses are so high that I can move the science slider to at most 20%.

To me, that sounds like you must be paying way too much in unit support costs (and maintenance costs for Temples :)), or you don't have enough roads producing income. I don't know for certain without looking at a game, but I can't remember having to turn science down that low to stay solvent. Where is all your money going?

But if I add Marketplaces to those productive towns, it has two benefits: first it increases happiness, so I can set my luxury slider down to 0%, which means I can increase the tech slider by 10-20%. And secondly the extra cash pays for all my expenses, so I can increase the tech slider by another 20%. Now the tech slider is at 50-60% and my Libraries are really effective!

Marketplaces are a special exception - I usually build them also even when I am going for a science game because of the extra happiness.

Later in the game, when University and Banks are available, I usally have a similar effect: without Banks I'm never able to set the tech slider high enough for the Universities to be effective! So even if it may sound paradoxical: I use Banks (and StockMarkets) to increase my science output! Without them I've never been able to achieve a science rate of "4 turns per tech". Perhaps you should try this in one of your games and see how you fare with it? I always thought it was a good strategy.

Interesting - I've never been able to achieve 4 turn research unless my science slider was cranked up to at least 80-90% (often 100%), unless it is late enough in the game to have tons of scientist farms in which case you can pretty much win however you choose.

My typical approach is to have the AI finance my science. I'll keep the science slider at close to 100% and run a deficit - when I discover a tech, I'll sell it for all the cash in the world (and sometimes gpt) to finance deficit research on my next tech.

I understand the concept of building Banks to increase your science percentage to increase your science, but I'm surprised you can reach 4-turn research without cranking your science slider so high that your banks are useless.

However, I always like Democracy best because compared to Monarchism it approximately doubles your income, and compared to Republic it's still 50% more. Combined with the University+Bank strategy this really rocks! In some of my more successful games I was able to keep up a 4 turn per tech rate and still get like 600-700 gpt, which could be used for investment in city improvements or for unit upgrade... So perhaps the best strategy is: get out of Despotism ASAP, then use Monarchy/Republic as a transitional phase and move to Democracy quickly. I think changing the government early on doesn't do much harm to your empire. In the current game I went to Monarchy too late and this had the side effect that my Democracy came to late, too. But the benefits of Democracy really pay off in the later stages of the game, when you have a big empire! The income is simply incredible, and don't forget about the fact that Democracy significantly reduces corruption and increases the Worker effectiveness!

I admit it has been quite a while since I used Democracy, but I don't recall the income increasing by 50% over Republic. They both have the same trade bonus, Democracy has lower corruption, and they have different unit support (sometimes one will cost more, sometimes the other will - I usually find my unit costs are lower under Republic than they would be under Democracy).

The reduced corruption and increased worker speed are definite perks, the main problem is the second period of anarchy. By the time you reach Democracy, you are probably looking at 7+ turns of anarchy. When you consider all the shields and gold (and even food because the Despotism penalty returns for anarchy, and you often have to hire specialists since the luxury slider doesn't work) you lose during those 7 turns, even though Democracy may increase your output, it takes an awfully long time before you reach the "break-even" point in most games.

Finally I have a question about culture. Obviously a big mistake of mine in the current game was to neglect culture. But I still don't quite understand it, because I had lots of Libraries (for a scientific nation like Russia they are so cheap...!) In some other threads I read about the "1000 year effect for Temples" and that one or two early Temples help with not falling too far behind in culture. What did they mean by this? How exactly does this work?

Megistatos is absolutely correct about the doubling effect, but it still doesn't usually make it productive to build early temples. If you need to build something while waiting for your city to grow, a warrior for MP/barb fighting/exploration/making contacts, or a galley (if possible) for exploration/making contacts, or even a granary in a town that wouldn't normally need one are better choices than a temple.

It was unfortunate that you lost this game via culture, but other builds help your empire much more in the early stages, and early temples will not generally improve your game.
 
Chamnix said:
sometimes one will cost more, sometimes the other will - I usually find my unit costs are lower under Republic than they would be under Democracy
Simply, you would need to have over double the allowed number of Republican units for Democracy to have lower upkeep. This certainly can happen, but not I think in the situations in which you would have the option of switching to Democracy...
(a) when you recently switched to Republic and have a bunch of workers scurrying around, some explorers, a small standing army for barb control and invasion watch, and most or all of your towns are still < pop 6. But of course Democracy is not available at that time.
(b) late in a military game, when you have used disconnect/reconnect/upgrade to create far more offensive units than you could ever possibly need. :D But in that case, even if someone did research as far as Democracy, you wouldn't want to switch to it because it is so weak in the face of military casualties.

Lanzelot said:
In some other threads I read about the "1000 year effect for Temples" and that one or two early Temples help with not falling too far behind in culture. What did they mean by this? How exactly does this work?
Ah, you noticed that over in the strat / general discussion forums, any thread that goes over one page in length inevitably degenerates into an argument over whether temples are worth building? ;)
Over there, they just talk about these things, but in the lands of GOTM and HOF, we actually have to sail our theories on the treacherous seas of competition!
 
Hi all,
I guess I have to clear up a terrible stupid glitch of mine...:wallbash:
For some reason I have been under the impression that Republic generates one extra commerce per square, while Democracy generates two extra commerce!! (I guess this explains to you, why I esteemed Democracy so high...) But you are right: this is not the case, neither in Vanilla nor in C3C!

Where did I get this idea from? Has it perhaps been that way in Civ2? Then that would mean I've been playing Civ3 for ~5 years without ever noticing that they changed the rules for Democracy :wallbash:
I rarely play Republic, my evolution is usually Despotism -> Monarchy -> Democracy. Perhaps that's the reason why I never noticed that Republic and Democracy are basically the same in terms of gross income...

Anyway, now the advice "go to Republic ASAP and stick with it for the rest of the game" makes more sense to me. The only significant advantage of Democracy may then be: if you get to it some time before Steam Power, you can build your railroad network very fast and this way boost your production!
That may still be an option worth considering.

To answer a few of Chamnix questions:
To me, that sounds like you must be paying way too much in unit support costs (and maintenance costs for Temples :)), or you don't have enough roads producing income. I don't know for certain without looking at a game, but I can't remember having to turn science down that low to stay solvent. Where is all your money going?
I can assure you that my first priority early on is to get roads on any square my citizens are working on... :) I also had only a small army and no Temples.
The only explanation I have: this was the effect of staying in Despotism too long and then using Monarchy instead of Republic?!

But once I got to Democracy, I was solvent again. Yes, I usually achieve a 4-turn science rate with my tech slider at 50-60%. And still have 100-200 gpt left for trading, rushing city improvements and upgrading. Even in my misplayed GOTM69 after the successful war against Japan, when I was able to catch up a bit and get my second core productive, I managed the 4-turns per tech for most of the Industrial Age. In the beginning at 40-50%, later on for the more expensive ones and for the first Modern Age techs at 60-70%. (At the end going 3 turns at 70% with a slight deficit and then in the 4th turn lowering the tech slider to 10 or 20%, which is still sufficient to finish that tech and gives me a 300-500 gold reserve that can be used to finance the 3 deficit turns of the next tech.) At the beginning of the Modern Age I had to lower the rate to 6-turns per tech, but I'm sure in the next couple of turns enough Research Labs would have been ready to get that up to 4 turns again. (I had already a decent number of Stock Exchanges and Commercial Docks in place.)

Lanzelot
 
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