GOTM71 - First Spoiler!

civ_steve

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GOTM 71- first spoiler, the Ancient Age




Reading Requirements:

  1. Must be able to research a Middle Ages Technology.
  2. Must have contact will at least 5 or 6 nearby civs.

Posting restrictions

  1. No maps showing resources from middle-ages (or later).
  2. No discussion of middle-ages (or later).
  3. Be discreet about locations of 'far-off' civs; limit screen shots to within 15 moves of start (or there-abouts).
  4. AS ALWAYS, do not post Spoiler information for ANY other 'X'OTM contest.


How's it going? You have a fairly good chunk of territory to claim and some space between you and the nearby civs; any problems establishing your initial empire? Tell us about things that went well, and things that didn't. And for any players using the Conquest save, how did starting with all those extra units work for you?
 
Consequences of predator choice:
The obvious tech choice WITH a bonus scout and Pottery would be Ceremonial Burial at 0%. The most important tech trade, Alphabet, would be a rather safe bet with just two starting techs and cash. The bonus scout would avoid popping the most useless tech, CB.

Without the starting scout, less popping is likely, and even trading for Pottery by the time we need it, is not a safe bet. The AI will demand lots of cash. If we research Pottery first, we will not have anything to offer for Alphabet while researching it. Possibly, we can buy Alphabet when we have researched Pottery, giving GPT and possibly the Pottery tech itself. (Everyone will have Warrior Code by then.) Giving GPT for Alphabet is not a problem because I want to do a 40 turn research on Writing afterwards, so that I can use the luxury slider freely.

We are left with a safe and a risky alternative. The downside of the safe choice is that it can take very long to get started on Writing. In the long run it can cost us monopoly on Literature. But with so many deity AI, such a monopoly is highly unlikely anyway.

[When I wrote the above I thought predator had no scout at all. I chose the “risky” alternative.]

Build order:
Scout
Scout
Worker
Warrior
Warrior/scout/Granary

Tech priority:
Pottery
Alphabet
The Wheel
Iron W
>Republic

4000 BC - Moved settler NW
3950 BC - Settled Karakorum. 0% on Ceremonial Burial.
3600 - Met Japan. Traded Pottery for WC, 2 gold.
3550 - Tough worker choice: roading game.
3450 - Worker 2 done.
3300 - Met England
3150 - First Warrior built. Starting granary.
2900 - Met Arabia.
2850 - Misclick will cost Arabian scout.
2800 - Another misclick interrupted chopping of Furs. Grrrr!!!!
2630 - Met Russia and Rome. Bought Alphabet from England. Traded Wheel, Masonry from Arabia. Traded Bronze, CB, 60 gold from Russia. Sold Masonry to England for cash. Sold Masonry to Rome for cash.
Researching Writing at 10%.
2590 - Settler done. Met China. Sold Alphabet to China.
2550 - Met Ottomans. Traded Iron Working, 20 gold for three techs.
2470 - Lost settler to barb, who killed warrior.
2310 - Know Spain, Korea. Bought Writing from Korea for Iron Working, 120 gold.
2270 - Traded contacts with Germany, Persia. Traded Mysticism, Horseback Rieding, German worker.
2190 - Founded Ta-Tu near horses, RCP7.
2070 - Founded Kazan by Northern cows, RCP3.
1950 - Gave Japan 1 gpt. (May be too late.)
1910 - Founded Almarikh on Furs, RCP3.
1790 - Founded Tabriz NNW, RCP3.
1700 - Traded Japanese worker and territory map for World map.
1675 – Founded Ulaanbaatar 2E
1650 – Bought contact with Greece from England. This paid off pretty well giving me a monopoly with Greece on contacts with the French. Net gain: tripled money, MapMaking, Philosophy, CoL, Math.
1550 – Founded Hovd. W,SW,SW.
1400 – Founded Darhan N,NE,NE.
1325 – Ottomans discover Construction.
1275 – Founded Dalandzadgad S,SW,SW,.
1150 – Founded Mandalgove, RCP 7 west.
1125 – Traded Construction from Japan for 15 gpt, horses, 1 gold, Territory map. (They have forces in our territory and they are haughty, proud, self-rightouos deity people, so this deal will not last long at all.) Traded Curreny from France. Traded Literature and Polytheism from Rome. Russia has Feudalism. Greeece has Feudalism. Russia has Monarchy. We enter the Middle ages. Our forces: 10 swords, 6 horse. The Japanese don’t seem to be building any spearmen.

I have not managed to pop a single hut. At one time a non-expansionist warrior beat me to a hut by the thinnest of margins. This is a big disappointment after reading the starting page. The map is fun and challenging although it is obvious that we have been given a rather gentle deity start, with the confused Japanese as the closest neighbours, plenty of land, a 4 turn settler factory (3.5-5.5.) As usual, I have been slow at the start with three rather unfortunate incidents - two misclicks, one early settler killed.
 
Predator

4000BC settle Karakorum
3750bc meet Japan
3650bc trade wc for cb and 7 gold to japan
3300bc meet arabia and trade wc for pottery and 10 gold
3250bc lose one of two scouts;build first settler
3100bc settle second town;decide on RCP 3
2670bc meet russia
2590bc buy alphabet from japan for 168 g;trade alpha for BW,masonry and 10g to russia;start research on writing at 100%sci, due in 40
2530bc connect furs
2470bc meet China;some civs research writing and contacts are traded around, now i also know of rome,greece,persia,spain;trade contact with russians for other 5 contacts with rome, now i know all civs;trade with china alpha,pot and cb for IW and 44g;trade germany IW for mysticism and 30 g;trade england myst+IW for the wheel and 80gold;trade japan 2 contacts+ 130g for writing;trade arabia 2 contacts+70g+1gpt for HBR;trade persia 2contacts for 50g;greece gets contact for 25g;russia gets wheel for 31g;korea gets wheel for 38 g;spain gets contact for 26g;germany gets some contact for 30g;get worker from arabia for 120g;now i'm at least at tech parity with everyone or ahead;start researching COL at max
2350bc karakorum builds granay->4turn settlers
2070bc found town 3,i also have 5 workers and a slave
2030bc greece has philo
1910bc 4th town
1870bc France have pyramids
1830bc 5th town;MM and mathematics researched by AI's;korea gets collosus
1725bc arabia gets oracle;poly,lit, also known in the world;6th town founded
1625bc 7th town
1575bc buy COL from spain for 28g (was 1 turn from researching myself);trade france COL+4gpt for maths and poly;poly+COL+WM for MM+lit+philo+tm to japan;ottomans get MM+col for his WM;trade few techs for gold;now i'm at parity with everyone again,have 361g;start republic at min
1475bc 8th town founded
1425bc korea has currency
1400bc 9th town
1325bc 10 town
1275bc buy currency for 410g from france;trade currency,108g+2gpt for construction with china and enter MA

At this date i have:
10towns
27citizens
12native workers
4slaves
2granaries
2barracks
1settler

Unfortunately i don't have horses.Plan is to build few warriors and upgrade to swords, get over Japan. Long time ago i noticed that in gotm something is wrong with Japan, they seem to build no spearmen, but instead quite a few catapults
 

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@ignas: is it me or is Dalandzadgad one tile (probably 1NW) off of your RCP 5?
 
We all make dumb ones, no shame there - if you knew the amount of settlers that got joined to random cities, in AW games, because they tried to bombard stuff around ;)
 
ignas said:
Long time ago i noticed that in gotm something is wrong with Japan, they seem to build no spearmen, but instead quite a few catapults
I think at one point the Japanese were set to build Land Artillery Units Often, or at least for that game. I've checked right now, and their settings are normal (for them), so if they DO build lots of Cats, that would be interesting.
 
I find this a very enjoyable game. Congratulations to the creator!

Moved NW and settled; scouts went west and south. Build order warrior, granary. No worker necessary, because I could buy 3 slaves from Japan; I thought them more important than a tech trade and proved correct.

Since PtW allows contact trading, I researched towards alphabet, writing. In both cases (actually in all cases) I was beaten, but could buy at affordable costs.

2310BC buy writing and trade for all contacts and tech; start literature.

1750BC trade for map making and most territory maps.

1525BC buy literature for wm, 3gpt; trade for all maps, techs, cash; start republic.

900BC buy republic from Russia for 36gpt, trade for rest of AA techs, enter Middle Ages, trade for all 1st tier techs, start chivalry for keshiks, revolt getting 5 turns of anarchy.

The AA was peaceful expansion. With 2 granaries I was pumping settlers and workers. Expansion started west towards my first contact and I was able to grab both gems and horses. I built some libraries to grab e.g. iron, strengthen research and culture. 15 workers plus 11 slaves improve our territory.

Mongols are 1st in production, 2nd in GNP, and 3rd in population (before anarchy). But 5th last in world ranking and our military is weak compared to everyone.

As this is deity, the AIs kept the barabarians under control and they were no problem at all for the Mongols.

Japanese Osaka will be the first victim to rid Japan of iron and horses.
 

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First Deity game ever, and I'm still alive after the Acient Age!!

As in the previous GOTMs the first question was again: move the settler or settle on the spot? A lot has been said about that in the pre-game discussion. In the end I settled on the spot for the following reasons:
  • Against lots of deity opponents, the extra defensive bonus of the hill may be handy. (Even good players -like Piú Freddo in GOTM69 or megistatos in GOTM70- have lost the game in an early attack.... Didn't want to share that fate.)
  • Obviously this is going to be a war-mongering game. So we can hope for a great leader which can complete the FP. Therefore there will be no need for a Palace jump, which means the capital should be turned into a production powerhouse. And for that the river is essential, as we don't need an Aquaeduct.

4000BC Found Karakorum, start the Wheel at 10%. (The Wheel turned out to take the full 40 turns! Even when I had two towns and set the science slider to 100%! I guess on Deity the tech costs are much much higher?)
3750BC Warrior
3600BC Meet Japan, trade one of my starting techs against their Ceremonial Burrial.
3450BC Meet Arabia
3250BC Meet England, trade Bronze Working, finish first Settler
3150BC Found 2nd town (Ta-Tu)
3000BC Warrior
2850BC Meet Korea
2800BC Archer
2710BC Worker
2470BC Meet Spain, trade Masonry
2430BC Ta-Tu finishes Granary --> 4turn settler factory (though for quite a while it took 5 turns per settler, as Ta-Tu's production was one shield short... Bad planning on my side! Only after my borders expanded and Ta-Tu got another bonus grassland inside it's boundaries, it became a true 4-turn factory.)
2270BC Meet Persia, buy contact with the Chinese
2230BC Buy Iron Working from China, Persia builds an embassy in Karakorum. From here on my relations with Persia are very friendly! I also notice that my F4 screen now shows Germany and Russia, but I never met them. Probably one of the other civs sold them contact with me?! Finish another settler.
2150BC Discover the Wheel, trade it against Mysticism (I think with Persia).
1910BC Found 3rd town.

I stopped taking notes here, as everything was developing in such a slow motion and I wanted to make some fast progress. So I recollect the rest from memory.

When I decided to go for the Wheel first, my plan was to try an early horse rush, do some conquering and then use those horsemen to upgrade them to Keshik later. But that plan didn't quite work out, as the Japanese beat me to the horse resource in the west and the Arabs to the one in the south...

So I switched the plan to an early swords rush either against Japan or against Arabia, depending on circumstances. Fortunately I was able to trade Iron Working and secure an Iron resource quite under the nose of a Japanese settler... That was a close shave!

But first I needed to setup a few more towns to get a solid production base. This initial expansion phase took much longer than expected -- on Deity everything is really slow motion! Feels like a different game!
Oh, by the way, some time around 1000BC I switched to Monarchy. Had only 4 turns of anarchy.

So by the time I finished a couple of Granaries and Barracks and a stack of 20 swords, the rest of the world had already reached the middle ages. I had already built roads to both possible fronts, the Japanese front and the Arabic front, and had positioned my forces in such a way that they could quickly attack both targets within two turns. I noticed that Japan had already protected everything with pikes, but Arabia had not yet connected a source of Iron to the capital; only to one minor town, which had built one or two pikes so far. In addition I had some good deals going on with Japan, so my choice was easy :lol:

I declared on Arabia and quickly took the planned objectives: their horse source (so I will be able to build Keshiks in the future), their iron source (to weaken them for the next war...), one unimportant mountain city (which obstructed my road into their core) and one of their size 8 core cities. Then my forces were a bit shattered around, so I decided to make peace. (They were willing to give me the Republic for peace.) While this war was still going on, I had also reached the MA and bought Feudalism. Then my first Med Inf units were able to play an important role in the final stages of that war. It's really fun to kick spearmen butts with Med Inf...! Never thought I would be able to do this against a Deity opponent! And the good news is: now that I've taken their iron, I can do it again in the next war :D

What has happened in the rest of the world? I noticed at some point, that the remaining 4 civs had also bought contact with me. But even with 13 contacts my attempts at tech trading were quite unsuccessful: only two or three times I was able to buy a tech that one other nation did not yet have, so I could sell it to someone else. Not like in lower difficulty levels, where you can buy a tech and then sell it to five others and get more than you had payed...

There had been quite a few wars going on, and Spain has already been eliminated. Fortunately it was conquered by a coalition of five civs, and each of them got one or two cities, so no one has yet turned into a super power. Same with the Japanese: they have lost about two thirds of their empire, but also to a coalition, so no one got too strong here. And of course I have taken a good chunk out of Arabia (4 towns out of 14), and after some regrouping and consolidating I will hopefully take over the rest of their core. (And I hope, this will finally produce my first MGL, so I can immediately plant a FP in Mekka...!) Just need to make sure to get ready for the second war, before they discover Gunpowder and hook up Saltpeter.

To sum it up, I'm doing better than expected and keeping up with the average AI. There's a handful of civs which are more powerful, but there're also a few who are much weaker. In the beginning I had to pay a lot of tribute to almost everyone, but that has stopped lately. And I was fortunate that no one picked an early quarrel with me. I guess being on the edge of the map (and paying all those tributes) really helped in this regard. Thanks a lot to civ_steve for creating this wonderful starting position. So far it has been a lot of fun! Not sure whether I will be able to win this in the end, as I'm quite behind in tech, culture and World Wonders, but I feel quite confident that my aggressive military strategy has a good chance of succeeding.

Cheers, Lanzelot
 
PS: I forgot: no trouble with Barbarians either, except for once, when a stack of 24 horsemen appeared at one of my RCP3 towns. The first three died fighting my spearman, the next one got into the town and stole 2 gold, and the other 20 destroyed the accumulated shields twenty time :). But whether the shield bin is emptied once or twenty times is no difference: it's already empty after the first time, so there was no real harm done here... And I had just started a new project the previous round, so I only lost the shields of one turn. I was much delighted that the stack of 20 didn't continue to the next city (the capital), where they could have done some real damage!
 
Spoiler 1
Settle on spot. Research Wheel at min. Send scouts south and west.
Meet Japan. They don’t want to trade wheel. Set research at max.
Meet Arabs. Nothing good to trade. At 3500 BC met English, Romans and Spain. They know Masonry and Alpha. Trade Whell to Japan for starting techs and other stuff from England and Co. Trade CB from Arabs. Research Writing on min.
Buildup was: warrior –Settler – Granary. To grab horses near Japan settle at distance 7. Choose RCP 3-7 with 5 Cities at ring 3.
Continue scouting and meet Persia, Greeks at West and Ottomans and China at South.
At 2310 BC trade writing from English and Germany-Korea contacts. Somebody knows Russians. Philosophy at max. At 1725BC trade Phylo, and start Literature at Max. England knew MM this time. Finally found France and Russia. Arabia declare around 1600 BC. Bring Rome at MA for Tech +14 gpt. Later, in a hope of WH, bring Otto, Korea with renegotiation of Peace to Arab’s war. To avoid aggression from Japan link them to war as well (Poly +5gpt).
At 1500 BC trade around WM and bought MM. Gain that much cash that bought CoL.
England have beaten me on Literature as well. Trade and start Republic at min.
At 1400 BC Ottomans quit from Alliance and more WH come.
At 1300 managed to destroy first Arab’s City that was at distance 8(!!) from my capital…
At 1200 few AIs learned currency and construction.
At 1125 Russia learned Republic. In CIVassist II price of Republic was reasonable, at least less then Currency + Construction. Trade Construction from Korea for gpt and Currency for construction from Rome. However, Russia did not want to sell Republic “no matter what”. Enter to MA in despotism, with negative gpt income, and 2 “happy wars”. Korea and Ottomans know Feudalism and Monotheism. Grrr…
 
I.L., Your start was similar to mine, entering the MA the same year. Good trade hustles seem to have got us through. I agree that the prices of techs escalate, but this is because of the deity level and the great number of civs. The AI have some sense of the worth of a monopoly tech. I would guess that it won't be long before more civs have Republic in your game. But by then I'm afraid your Russians will have Construction and Currency.

Nice to see such a similar game on this wonderfully challenging map!
 
Good trade hustles seem to have got us through. I agree that the prices of techs escalate, but this is because of the deity level and the great number of civs. The AI have some sense of the worth of a monopoly tech.
The question is: What Civassist II Tech price actually mean? And how to get exact number of how much Republic will costs?

I.L., Your start was similar to mine, entering the MA the same year.
Nice to see such a similar game on this wonderfully challenging map!

I finished MA and wonder if it is also similar?
 
I think at one point the Japanese were set to build Land Artillery Units Often, or at least for that game. I've checked right now, and their settings are normal (for them), so if they DO build lots of Cats, that would be interesting.

It looks that spears for Japan is "forbiden" (at least for this game) They have warriors "pop ups", when normal AIs have spear.
 
The question is: What Civassist II Tech price actually mean? And how to get exact number of how much Republic will costs?

That's beyond me. I rarely check the tech cost in Civassist II at all because it's one of the few features of the program (the only one?) that doesn't work right. It tells us that we have 1 turn left on a tech and in the game it still says 2. Sometimes I check the tech cost when I need cash and have 3 or 4 turns left on a tech, to get a rough idea of whether there is any point in maintaining 100% research to try to shave off a turn.

I finished MA and wonder if it is also similar?
I have not finished the MA.
 
That's beyond me. I rarely check the tech cost in Civassist II at all because it's one of the few features of the program (the only one?) that doesn't work right. It tells us that we have 1 turn left on a tech and in the game it still says 2. Sometimes I check the tech cost when I need cash and have 3 or 4 turns left on a tech, to get a rough idea of whether there is any point in maintaining 100% research to try to shave off a turn.

I am familiar with the discrepancy to which you refer, but I am confident that the tech cost shown is accurate, i.e. the beakers gathered and beakers outstanding figures are reliable. I think the problem is with the corruption calculation in CA2, which never seems to match up with what is observed on the game. And if the beakers per turn figure shown on the CA2 tech page is derived from CA2's calculation of commerce on a per-town basis, it will be incorrect also, and may lead to that error in number of turns remaining.
 
The question is: What Civassist II Tech price actually mean? And how to get exact number of how much Republic will costs?
AFAIK the price shown by CivAssist II is the one defined by the game designers. And it is the number of beakers needed to research them.

In trading, the AI values certain techs by other factors. Government techs (republic and to a much larger extent nationalism) are regarded higher than other techs and thus you cannot buy e.g. nationalism for steam, despite the equivalent tech costs. IIRC techs enabling Wonder builds are also "more expensive", and techs for Wonders already built are valued less (e.g. music theory).
 
Playing predator, probably won't have time to finish the game.

I played a non-research game, buying and trading my way into the MA in 1250 BC. I noted the iron and horses to the west very early, and sent my second settler to found Kazan between them and claim them before Japan. Like Megalou I had a few very annoying misclicks, moving the worker off the deer tile when I was going to chop for instance.

QSC stats (1000 BC):
14 towns, 38 citizens
1 settler, 10 workers, 12 slaves, 1 scout
3 warriors, 1 archer, 11 horsemen
2 granaries, 1 harbor, 6 barracks
All contacts, 3 embassies
All AA techs except the governments (Persia has Monarchy), Engineering

Re CAII and the numbers, PaperBeetle is right on the mark. The numbers in the technology tab are the correct costs of researching a tech, but corruption calculations are off for maps not of normal size. Buying a monopoly tech is roughly twice the price of researching it, and the value of all techs decreases depending on how many others know it, so buying a monopoly Republic (2x cost) with two non-monopoly techs that several others know (say 2/3 value) will never work.
 
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