GOTM80 - Spoiler #2

[civ_steve]

GOTM 80 - second spoiler, The Middle Ages

Reading Requirements:

1. Must have contact with All remaining Civs.
2. Must be able to research an Industrial Age Technology.

Posting restrictions

1. No maps showing Industrial or Modern resources.
2. No discussion of Industrial Age (or later).
3. Absolutely NO Discussion of any other active 'X'OTM contest!

How did your Middle Ages go? Have you done anything with the other landmasses? Any problems?

 

[TxCraig]

The Aztecs had a poor starting location didn't they?
The Iroquois had a nice capital city location. I put my FP there, 15 away from the palace.

I went for both Leonardo & JS Bach. That may have been a mistake, because
I lost JS Bach by 4 turns and Newton by 2 turns. So there goes my 20K.
Also the change to Democracy was ill-timed.


AD 90 Entered Middle Ages.
150 Golden Age ended.
320 Russia completed HG.
360 Peace treaty with Aztecs. They have a remaining city somewhere off-continent.
480 New government: Republic.
690 Sistine Chapel
730 Contact with the English. Learned Engr., Invention, Gunpowder from GL.
770 Declared war on Iroquois.
880 Peace treaty with Iroquois in return for one of their cities.
950 Leonardo
980 University in capital
1040 Traded Banking + 168 gp for Chemistry from Russia.
1110 Traded Democracy for Metallurgy, Astronomy, 48 gp, 68 gpt from England.
1140 Russia declared war on us. Germany declared war on Russia.
1200 Lost JS Bach by 4 turns.
1290 New government: Democracy.
1320 Researched Magnetism; entered Industrial Age.

Capital city build order in the MA: Cathedral - Marketplace - Sistine - Leonardo - University - Shakespeare

 

[PrinceMyshkin]

Entry class: Predator
Game status: Conquest Victory for Persia
Game date: 520 AD
Firaxis score: 7199
Jason score: 10723
Time played: 17:12:47

Entering the MA in 70BC, I still had 5 turns of GA left and had traded for all first-tier techs with Germany and Russia. I was in a war with Russia tied to a re-negotiated peace treaty with the Vikings and an ma with Germany. I was also in a war with the Iroquois with another re-negotiated peace the Aztecs.

Since I could get 4-turn research on theology, I did so. I thought the ai would go for chivalry in case I ever needed horses and that navigation would be useful for resources and luxuries from other continents. This was a mistake I may not have made if not for gifting up the ai's, since I really needed no other tech with the GLHouse. I don't know if I could have reached conquest any faster, but I certainly could have gained score by bumping the happiness slider. Chivalry would have been better if I researched at all as knights may have been useful to speed conquest.

I kept immortals advancing on the remaining Iroquois towns with workers following behind and sent new immortals through the Aztecs and more workers building a road to Egypt and its horse source. In 10AD, one turn before our alliance expired, the Aztecs signed peace with the Iroquois. I re-nogiated peace with the Egyptians for an ma against the Aztecs. Since I had immortals beside all 4 of their towns, both civs were eliminated in 30AD.

I cleared the trickle of troops that Egypt sent with immortals traveling down the roads quickly being built towards Egypt. During this time I was also building galleys for a ship chain to England and Egypt and another one NE to Russia with most new immortals heading for Russia. Egypt didn't last long once my ships arrived and they were eliminated after a short peace in 210AD. I got one leader in this war and jumped my palace to Thebes during this war getting a modest boost in production and gpt.

By then I had also started taking Russian towns. The Vikings honored our peace treaty, but I kept them allied versus Russia. By now I had almost 100 immortals and could barely afford the upkeep, so started making marketplaces in my core.

The English had the most troops and were the only civ with iron and horses connected. They also had built many units during a GA after the Colossus build in 290BC. I shipped the victorious Egyptian forces to England with an RoP and started the war in 310AD. I captured all but three of their towns in the first turn. After healing troops and slaughtering their counter-attack, they were eliminated in 390AD. The same turn the Russians were also eliminated.

I went ahead and declared war on Germany allying the Vikings with me, while my forces rushed in ship-chains to many Viking towns. Especially one city with the Great Wall. When the Germans were down to two cities, I raped the Vikings taking 5 of their 13 towns. The Germans were eliminated in 470AD just in time for the completion of the near useless navigation. In 510AD, I captured the last Viking town for conquest victory in 520AD.

While it was a fun game, I found it a little odd the Iroquois had no access to horses. Or that only one ai managed to hook-up iron. Things could have gone a little differently if all the ai's on the starting continent had gotten GA's.

 

[DWetzel]

Having entered the middle ages in 400 AD in pursuit of my 20k win, and getting Monotheism as my free tech, I gifted Russia into the middle ages (with currency) as well. Germany got Monotheism also as their free tech (boo); Russia got Engineering (yay?), which I didn't bother to trade for at that time. With 2300+ gold in the bank, researching Theology in 4 at 90% and -56 gpt was no hardship.

The Iroquois were the second civilization to fall to the Persian immortals, in 440 AD. Theology and my market in Perseopolis came in at the same time; I then rushed the Sistine Chapel with a leader I had handy. Feudalism in 4. Perseopolis got a slightly rushed cathedral after the Sistine as I finished Feudalism and started a build with Sun Tzu. I took a brief (and probably unnecessary) detour to Chivalry at this point (in 4, at profit) before plowing through the middle of the tech tree.

I had gotten a city on the north island from a previous peace with Egypt, and rushed a harbor and settler there to hook up horses in 530 AD, right after getting Chivalry.

I re-declared war on Egypt in 550 AD. Education came in 570 AD, with Astronomy in 7 following (as I raised cash for the war). When Astronomy came in Perseopolis switched Sun Tzu to Copernicus, buliding that in 670 AD and following with a university short-rushed via a courthouse. Meanwhile, progress against Egypt was steady but unspectatular, yielding no leaders. I actually made peace (again) with Egypt in 710 AD for three cities, including their horse town and two other nice-sized cities. Needless to say, this was to be a short-lived peace. Bismarck demanded Education in 720 AD and declared when I told him where he could stick it; he decided to give me 38g + WM for peace a few turns later.

Research after Education was Banking, Printing Press, Music Theory (to start a build), and then Free Artistry. As I got Free Artistry Germany and Russia proved semi-useful, coming up with Invention for me. I gave Russia Education and went for Gunpowder in 4. Shakespeare's was built in 870 AD; Bach's was set as next in line.

In 1000 AD I decided to build an embassy with Egypt for 41g. Then they agreed that 85 gold was a fair price for a right of passage with me. Not a smart move by them. I spent the next five turns lining everything up juuuuust right against Egypt, then ROP-raped them in 1050 AD. My second attack of that war yielded a leader; I switched Perseopolis to Newton's (built immediately) and ran the leader home to rush Bach's in 1100 AD.

I finished off all the mandatory techs in 1090 AD, drawing Medicine in the following age.; Egypt has 5 cities left and a lot of immortals and knights about to make them meet their doom.

Middle Ages culture in Perseopolis:

450_AD: Sistine Chapel
480_AD: Cathedral
670_AD: Copernicus' Observatory
680_AD: University
870_AD: Shakespeare's Theatre
1060AD: Newton's University
1100AD: JS Bach's Cathedral

I don't have a save at 1100 AD, but in 1060 AD I had 6,152 culture in Perseopolis (77 cpt, not counting Newton's) according to CA2, with the palace, temple, library, Colossus, Oracle, Hanging Gardens, and Great Library already in double-culture land.


To see how the game finished out, go to the Final Spoiler

 

[Più Freddo]

Predator class
Going for a Diplomatic victory

At the dawn of the Middle Ages, Persia destroyed the Aztecs
and continued the war into Iroquois lands. As their Golden
Age then came to a close, the Persians found it hard to keep
up the research rate. However, the eight turns needed for
Astronomy were offset by the possibility to buy Invention
from the overseas tribes. Hope lived on that a similar trick
could be played with Banking, but the alien tribes were
uncooperative and chose Chivalry and Navigation as their
research targets at the time. Towards the end of the Middle
Ages, a Great Leader emerged, who helped construct a new
Palace in former Iroquois land.

330 BC Destroy Aztecs
250 BC Capture Salamanca with The Pyramids
170 BC Exit Golden Age
070 AD Meet England
230 AD Connect Horses
270 AD Emerge Great Leader Darius
300 AD Build Copernicus's Observatory in Persepolis
310 AD Build Palace in Salamanca
410 AD Enter Industrial Ages​

Would there be time to build enough Libraries and
Universities in the new Core to keep up research in the
beginning of the Industrial Age?

The lore masters of Persia kept the following description
of the scientific progress of their people:

330 BC Discover Monotheism
250 BC Discover Theology
170 BC Discover Education
010 BC Discover Astronomy
010 BC Learn Invention
070 AD Discover Gunpowder
150 AD Discover Chemistry
230 AD Discover Physics End of War Happiness(?)
290 AD Discover Theory of Gravity
330 AD Discover Magnetism
370 AD Discover Metallurgy
410 AD Discover Banking
410 AD Discover Medicine
410 AD Learn Chivalry
410 AD Learn Navigation
410 AD Learn Steam Power​

 

[Scratcher]

Open, going for a (hopefully) quick tech finish, so Diplo or Space depending on time constraints.

I entered the MA in 330bc getting Engineering as my free tech. Eventually, a suicide galley was successful and contact was made with a Russian settler and warrior pair. Contacts with Germany and Scandinavia were traded. I traded and gifted both Germany and Russia into the MA but was only able to obtain Monotheism. England was also eventually discovered but they were quite backward. The Russians and Germans did not assist with any techs in the whole era and research was self made. The Iroquois and were reduced to one city state and Egypt severely depleted. Nearly the entire continent and some outlying islands were occupied by the Persian Empire. The Persians entered the Industrial age in 540ad. I received Steam Power as my free tech. I gifted both Germany and Russia into the IA. They both received Nationalism which was traded. I haven’t really got the hang of this tech trade scam when entering a new age. I always seem to get my free tech awarded before I get chance to trade. If someone can explain how this works that would be great.

Anyway, some important dates

330bc Entered the MA and received Engineering as the free tech.
230bc Contact made with Russia, Germany and Scandinavia.
210bc War declared on the Iroquois. Darius the 1st MGL is obtained and used for a Forbidden Palace in the old Iroquois core.
110bc I enter an Immortal triggered GA.
50bc Peace agreed with the Iroquois for contacts with the English.
50ad Declare war on the Egyptians
250ad Copernicus’ Observatory completed in Persepolis.
280ad GA finishes (and I lose one research turn on Gunpowder)
310ad Peace agreed with Egypt.
480ad Commence trading with Russia and Germany for luxuries.
540ad Declare war on Egypt and enter the Industrial Age.

Research
330bc Engineering (free tech)
230bc Monotheism (trade Germany)
170bc Feudalism discovered
50bc Theology discovered
30ad Education discovered (90%, 4 turns).
130ad Astronomy discovered (80%, 5 turns)
210ad Invention discovered (60%, 4 turns)
280ad Gunpowder discovered (70%, 5 turns – lost 1 turn due to GA ending)
330ad Chemistry discovered (80%, 5 turns)
380ad Physics discovered (70%, 5 turns)
420ad Theory of Gravity (90%, 4 turns)
450ad Chivalry (trade Germany)
460ad Magnetism discovered ((80%, 4 turns)
500ad Metallurgy discovered (80%, 4 turns)
540ad Music theory (trade Germany)
540ad Banking discovered (50%, 4 turns) Enter IA
540ad Steam Power (free tech)
540ad Nationalism (trade Russia)

 

[Più Freddo]

I always seem to get my free tech awarded before I get chance to trade. If someone can explain how this works that would be great.

Before the bug was fixed, you could enter the diplomacy screen via The Big Picture button on the splash screen when you entered the new age.

 

[Scratcher]

@ Piu Freddo. Ah, that would explain it. I didn't know it was a bug, or fixed. I was sure this trick still worked. It wouldn't have helped in this game anyway as there were only two other scientific civs and therefore not possible to get a second tier tech.

Thanks for the reply. By the way I used to work for a company in Wien and loved my time there.

Scratcher

 

[Andronicus]

20k

Entered middle ages in 230BC drawing free feudalism, still in GA (started 350BC)
At war with rapidly deminishing Aztecs - looking for a leader
Iroquois have been my research buddies (not for much longer)
Hadnt met the other continents


10AD galley sinks in sight of purple to west of Egypt
30AD peace with Aztecs - leave then with 1 town - troops shifted to NE to attack Iro
150AD English build GLH - I was starting to consider if I could build all wonders!
260AD dow Iroquois, MA Egypt tied to PT - unfortunately they never broke it
280AD contact England, buy full contacts and maps. Gift up Russians (get Engineering) and Germans (get Feud)
500AD re dow Aztecs - destroyed 530AD
520AD PT with Iro- left with one town on island to north
540AD provoke Egypt dow -> long war leader fishing unsuccessfully
670AD Susa completes Sun Tzu's to help break wonder cascades (Russia and Germany switch to Leos, embassy had shown Leo's will go to Germany shortly)
770AD Berlin completes Leo's all wonder builds are now killed off so trading of techs for gpt rescues my cash strapped economy.

Techs
110BC Research Mono
30AD Research Theol - turn down science temporarily to save money for uni rush and to finance negative gpt rush to Shakes whilst giving time for my galleys to find more friends and hopefully get a tech or 2 from GLib - didnt happen.
310AD Research Education (a mistake - I should have researched PP first)
360AD Research PP
410AD Research Banking
420AD trade engineering (Rus)
460AD Research Demo
500AD Research Free Artistry
540AD Research Astronomy
540AD trade Invention (Ger)
580AD Research Gunpowder
620AD Research Chemistry
660AD Research Physics
700AD Research Metal
740AD Research ToG
780AD Research Magnetism -> free Medicine
- dont gift up Rus and Germans as risk of wonder cascade

Culture builds in middle ages
110BC Hanging Gardens
10AD Great Wall
90AD Cathedral
430AD Sistine
440AD uni
610AD Shakes
780AD Newton's

No leaders despite many many elite victories, so no early heroic epic and no rushed wonders

 

[Lanzelot]

@ Piu Freddo. Ah, that would explain it. I didn't know it was a bug, or fixed.

And neither did I...! In the last few scientific games I kept scratching my head how to get to the F4 screen without the F6 screen already showing my free tech... Perhaps the War Academy should be updated here.

Thanks for clearing that up, Piú Freddo!

 

[Lanzelot]

Here my build order in Pasargadae during the Middle Ages:

_320AD Cathedral
_420AD Heroic Epic
_460AD Sistine Chapel
_730AD Sun Tzu's Art of War
_740AD JS Bach's Cathedral
_750AD University
_930AD Copernicus' Observatory
1110AD Magellan's Voyage
1270AD Shakespeare's Theatre
1275AD Smith's Trading Company
1355AD Newton's University

Entered the IA around that time and got Steam Power. Quite handy again: I had already moved stacks of workers to Pasargadae and immediately railroaded it. Production went from 23spt to to 34spt...

I also was quite successful with leader farming during this period, after not getting any for such a long time. The first one formed an Immortal Army to enable the Herioc Epic and three more were used to rush Sistine, JS Bach's and Adam Smith's. I kept my leaders for the right occasions, like when it was possible to break a wonder cascade at the same time. This allowed me to get all wonders of the MA except Leonardo's, which went to Germany, like in your game, Andronicus! BTW: despite not having any leaders, you still seem to be ahead of me around 780AD! How many spt does your 20K city crank out? Should I have gone for Library/Great Library earlier? Or has my mishap with loosing the Hanging Gardens to a cascade been so serious?!
From your time table in the first spoiler I calculated your cpt output at 250BC to be something like 38 cpt, while mine was 25 cpt. Now at 780AD you are at 83 cpt, while I'm at 71 cpt.

DWetzel: I also calculated your culture output at the two dates 250BC and 780AD. Interestingly in 250BC we two were tied at 25cpt, while in 780AD you had fallen back a bit with 65cpt. Can it be that between Hanging Gardens and Sistine Chapel you didn't have useful things to build? Neither Herioc Epic nor Colosseum should take that many turns to build.

I think, more important than whether to use the capital or the second town is the right research order so that the "correct" things can be built first?! Andronicus' early Library at 1250BC seems to be an important factor for the lead he established.

TxCraig: can you also supply time tables like ours?

Regards, Lanzelot

 

[DWetzel]

I think I did find the unfortunate time to build a few non-cultural items in Perseopolis. But more importantly, I think the biggest issue was in tech: I got to all those later techs less quickly than either of you--which naturally slowed things down. I think that's a function of expecting the AI to have researched a little more efficiently than they did (as alluded to in my first spoiler).

I do think it's vitally important to get the Great Library as soon as possible, not so much for the techs, but to get that 12 cpt after the 1000 year bonus as soon as possible. Each turn you can save early on is more like 2 or 3 turns later, given how the turn timing works.

 

[PaperBeetle]

In the last few scientific games I kept scratching my head how to get to the F4 screen without the F6 screen already showing my free tech...

It can be done in C3C, just not in PtW.