[GS] Governor Balance

[bengalryan9]

I'm curious what people's thoughts are on the current state of the governors are in terms of balance. I liked a lot of the changes they made not long ago, but I still don't think they're all on even ground.

The one that jumps out to me the most is Liang, who I personally hardly ever use these days. The extra build charge is very nice, obviously, but the rest of her kit seems awful weak to me. The environmental damage nullification is pretty dependent on luck, the extra housing doesn't seem all that necessary to me, and parks come too late in my experience to be of much use (though maybe you could do some fun things with them if you beeline them as certain civs?). Is there something I am missing here? What changes could be made to bring her towards the rest of the pack?

I personally think the rest of the governors are in a pretty good spot. Pingala and Magnus are both fantastic. I can almost always find a use for Reyna, and Victor can be a life saver at times in addition to being great at keeping captured cities in line. Moksha is probably my second least used governor, but that's because I rarely go all-in on religion... if you choose to go that route, I think he's pretty good as well.

If people want to talk about Ibrahim here, too, that'd be fine with me. I can see the appeal but I haven't necessarily been as impressed by him as some others have when I play the Ottomans. Serasker is nice when going on the offensive but the rest seems pretty mediocre to me. Grand Vizier probably has some uses but you'd have to basically anchor him in one civ's capital for the whole game to really take advantage of it IMO.

 

[Sostratus]

The one that jumps out to me the most is Liang, who I personally hardly ever use these days. The extra build charge is very nice, obviously, but the rest of her kit seems awful weak to me. The environmental damage nullification is pretty dependent on luck, the extra housing doesn't seem all that necessary to me, and parks come too late in my experience to be of much use (though maybe you could do some fun things with them if you beeline them as certain civs?). Is there something I am missing here? What changes could be made to bring her towards the rest of the pack?

Liang’s superpower is the fishery. It’s situational, but (especially if you get Mausoleum) fisheries can create truly powerful coastal cities quite early.
It’s just not front loaded quite like magnus or pushing early Pingala can be.
I think the balance that most governors need is to either commit to all having a strong innate ability, or having their power in the promotion tree. That’s the real disparity for the most part imo.

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

and parks come too late in my experience to be of much use (though maybe you could do some fun things with them if you beeline them as certain civs?). Is there something I am missing here? What changes could be made to bring her towards the rest of the pack?

City parks are great playing as the Mapuche. They give +2 appeal to surrounding tiles, so build them next to your Chemamulls so they generate even more culture and tourism. I've won a cultural victory with the Mapuche by taking advantage of this tactic.

Anyways, back to your original query, most of the time I will start off with either Pingala or Magnus. I guess governors are in a little better spot overall where in older versions of Civ 6, Magnus was king. Depending on the game, I might go with Pingala if I need science, culture, and great people or Magnus if I want to just go wide as possible and settle.

Moksha isn't all that great, even for RV. His most valuable ability is the extra promotion for apostles, but even then, Pingala or Magnus seem to be better for my needs, even if I'm going full out religious.

Victor is great for emergency invasions. Don't really have any use beyond that.

Governors are definitely improved, but still some balance issues could be ironed out.

 

[Sostratus]

Moksha isn't all that great, even for RV. His most valuable ability is the extra promotion for apostles, but even then, Pingala or Magnus seem to be better for my needs, even if I'm going full out religious.

Especially early, you need Prophet points to get a religion (production,) you need access to temples (culture) and missionaries (faith) Moksha really doesn't deliver any of that. It's a shame, because I did have fun with Piety openings in civ5. He'd need a rework though to make that happen- he's geared for religious victory and not really religion generally. I mean as an example, +20% to holy site buildings? The cheapest buildings in the game? Get out of here with that weak sauce. If it was all buildings (who said the architects can't build other stuff?) or Wonders, i could see that.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Mokhsa's full heal is great; but unless you're doing a religious victory, you won't see much of him.

All governors are useful, but Victor and Liang in particular require an all in strategy.

 

[acluewithout]

Especially early, you need Prophet points to get a religion (production,) you need access to temples (culture) and missionaries (faith) Moksha really doesn't deliver any of that. It's a shame, because I did have fun with Piety openings in civ5. He'd need a rework though to make that happen- he's geared for religious victory and not really religion generally. I mean as an example, +20% to holy site buildings? The cheapest buildings in the game? Get out of here with that weak sauce. If it was all buildings (who said the architects can't build other stuff?) or Wonders, i could see that.

It’s stuff like this which is why I think different Governors should unlock throughout he game, rather than all being front loaded at the start, and as past of that you should be able to get more governors overall. Moshka

Moshka and Reyna both seem like later game choices. And they’re a bit limited given you can have only one of them. Liang also really only hits her stride mid game, and a few more Liang like governors would be nice.

Early game, Liang and her first promotion, Magnus, Amani and Pingala are good. Their late game bonuses are quite situational.

To me, it’s interesting how the governors broadly line up with Civ 5’s social policies at least thematically. Magnus and Liang are sort of a combination of Liberty and Tradition. Victor is Honour. Moshka is Piety. Reyna is Commerce. Amani is Patronage. Pingala is Rationalism and Aesthetics. And that lines up with their timings a bit too - Magnus, Liang and Victor lean more towards early choices, Amani a bit later, then sort of the rest (although early Pingala is good).

Again, I think the design would be stronger if some Governors unlocked later, and you could get some that had similar abilities. I often wish I could have an extra Amani - it’s so much fun zipping her around - and also more than one Pingala to justify more than one Super Tall city. Or multiple Reyna like Governors that I could stick in all my Colonial Cities.

I'm curious what people's thoughts are on the current state of the governors are in terms of balance.

Yes, they’re pretty balanced.

Picking up one point, Liang can be fun to move around to help get Districts up and buff Coastal Cities. The damage immunity is situationally good. She might not be the optimal choice but she’s fun for an awesome tall City.

 

[UWHabs]

They're not perfectly balanced, but they never will be. To me, they're close enough though that I don't feel they need a ton of changes.

I would agree that Liang is a little situational, although she is the only governor that you can use to basically turn useless tiles into useful ones. Although other than trying it out once, I don't think I've ever wanted to go all the way to city parks - too many promotions needed for not enough gain, especially when you factor in lost time to move to a new city and establish.

I'd also agree that Moksha lacks a useful T1 promotion. If you changed their opening bonus even to something as simple as +1 faith per citizen in the city, and then combine the default bonus with the theological combat bonus, to me that would be a nice bonus to make him useful if you're not going super-religious but using a faith economy.

 

[Victoria]

The one that jumps out to me the most is Liang,

As already said, fisheries is subtly strong and only 2 promos from parks. The thing with it is Pingala and Magnus get the attention but Moksha is super strong for RV and Liang is an alternative for Pin is science is not an issue because appeal is so strong for such things as public transport.
I have been playing a load of deity Kupe terra maps because they are so different and can be 100% peaceful and have tried many things. Using Liang for fisheries just works so well. It’s not stronger but using Liang for example means no requirement for provision but prepares a city for Pin later. And if there are not many culture CS then parks are an option.
For the flipping war strategy Amani and Victor make a great combo. Reyna need 4 promos for buying districts and her harbourmaster and money making make her strong for naval and MP play.
I think they have done a great job. Magnus inherent 50% rather than additional makes his so strong but not required as first governor unless seriously wanting an early chop.
Amani is a life saver for missing golden age points and double envoys later is not to be underestimated.

 

[KayAU]

I don't think the governors are quite on even ground, but I also don't think they need to be perfectly balanced. The most important thing is that they all have their uses, which generally, they do. That said, there are plenty of individual promotions which I don't find particularly useful.

@acluewithout I found the comparison to Social Policies in Civ V very interesting. Personally, I would much rather have had a system like Social Policies, or the more evolved Virtues system from CivBE. The problem with governors, as far as I am concerned, is that their effects are often fairly small, only apply to a single city at a time, and moving them around introduces some (for me) annoying micro management. I would love if Firaxis changed their titles from Governors to Ministers, let them take up permanent residence at the Government Plaza, and gave them civilization wide effects instead. If they wanted to make things a bit more dynamic, they could allow the each of the Ministers to lead different ministries for different results, but I wouldn't mind much either way.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

For SV Moksha is the key. On SVs in some situations I don't acquire Reyna or Victor at all to make enough points for Moksha in time. The Faith purchase district ability is, the key-of-the-key for SV.

Maybe Reyna is the least used governor for me, I usually get her only for the era point of acquiring all governors, or when I have too many newly-conquered cities that Moksha, Victor and Liang are all too busy.

Yes not all governors are balanced. We have strong ones like Pingala, Magnus or Moksha, and useless ones like Victor or Reyna, but that's where the fun is, and that's also where a player's skill begin to take place, that he can choose the one who satisfies the current situations most.

If everything being the same things will be boring.

 

[darkace77450]

The one that jumps out to me the most is Liang, who I personally hardly ever use these days. The extra build charge is very nice, obviously, but the rest of her kit seems awful weak to me. The environmental damage nullification is pretty dependent on luck, the extra housing doesn't seem all that necessary to me, and parks come too late in my experience to be of much use (though maybe you could do some fun things with them if you beeline them as certain civs?). Is there something I am missing here? What changes could be made to bring her towards the rest of the pack?

I agree with you on Parks and Recreation. It's a big investment in governor titles for a decent local benefit, but if you want more mileage out of it you're looking at 5 turns for every city in which you want a City Park. Fisheries can be good in a coastal city, and to that end, Reinforced Materials can help protect against hurricanes. Alas, they're on different branches of the promotion tree. Zoning Commissioner can help get a city founded in the mid-game up and running quicker via chops. Water Works doesn't strike me as very useful, though, since the benefits of larger cities is marginal (and that's coming from someone who always builds the Audience Chamber, and builds a Neighborhood and Food Market in every city!).

If people want to talk about Ibrahim here, too, that'd be fine with me.

The only comment I have regarding Ibrahim is that Khass-Oda-Bashi and Capou Agha strike me as appropriate abilities (in functionality if not name) for Amani.

They're not perfectly balanced, but they never will be. To me, they're close enough though that I don't feel they need a ton of changes.

I would agree that Liang is a little situational, although she is the only governor that you can use to basically turn useless tiles into useful ones. Although other than trying it out once, I don't think I've ever wanted to go all the way to city parks - too many promotions needed for not enough gain, especially when you factor in lost time to move to a new city and establish.

I'd also agree that Moksha lacks a useful T1 promotion. If you changed their opening bonus even to something as simple as +1 faith per citizen in the city, and then combine the default bonus with the theological combat bonus, to me that would be a nice bonus to make him useful if you're not going super-religious but using a faith economy.

A nice early promotion for Moshka could be +1 faith for every unimproved feature. This feeds faith economy without tying someone to religion, it strengthens the parallels to Reyna, and it's a thematic fit.

 

[Basajaun]

Eh...I usually only grab Liang if Im with the Maori.
Otherwise my usual suspects from most used to least are;

Pingala>Reyna>Moksha

Pingala for a science or culture boost, depending on which I feel need to bump the most early game
Reyna to keep my economy up and start thinking about my first harbor to boost, later to buy Spaceports with gold
Moksha once I feel comfortable what governors and promotions I have, to start working him towards buying Spaceports with faith

The rest are situational for me. Magnus I rarely take, he doesnt really fit my playstile

 

[Leucarum]

It doesn't feel like it's always a straightforward answer of who to oick in the early game which is nice. It suggests a reasonable degree of balance you can vary your playstyle quite a bit. In some order Amani/Magnus/Pingala tend to be my early go-to governors more than anyone else which is stil a nice amount of variety!

Moksha/Reyna's district purchasing is a huge deal both for science victory (Aztecs don't feel as special any more) or just for getting late cities up and running.

Liang and Victor seem the most situational but there are frequent enough cases where they feel like the right choice...

 

[kaspergm]

I think most of the governor promotions are boring bordering on trash. Most of the governors are marginally useful for their primary ability, but give me little incentive to power up.

• Pingala obviously is the exception. The early science, culture and great person points are imo. ridiculously powerful and dwarfs all the other imo.

• The two first promotions on Magnus are also very good early, although I find I can get by without them without too much hassle.

• Putting a title into Armani is obviously useful, but her promotions are extremely bland until you reach the last one, which I will get once the unused titles start to pile up and I need to kick some AI out of a city state.

• Liang is useful, and the fishery and disaster promotions are very situational but can be good. The others are just trash.

• Victor cam be helpful when targeted by a an unexpected invasion, but is rarely a matter of life and death.

• Reyna and Moksha seem the worst to me, but admittedly I use a mod that makes districts cheaper to build.

 

[Tarry]

Moska is pretty awesome. New city. 5 turns later, Moska is established and for less than 1000 faith here's your 1st district, way cheaper than buying them with gold. Spend your gold buying 1-2 buildings in that district and suddenly you have a productive city for <district supporting your win condition>.
Then move him to your next city needing a district (or one about to grow) rinse and repeat.
All while spending cities production time on builders or whatever.

 

[bengalryan9]

Moska is pretty awesome. New city. 5 turns later, Moska is established and for less than 1000 faith here's your 1st district, way cheaper than buying them with gold. Spend your gold buying 1-2 buildings in that district and suddenly you have a productive city for <district supporting your win condition>.
Then move him to your next city needing a district (or one about to grow) rinse and repeat.
All while spending cities production time on builders or whatever.

I'd rather not build all the Holy Sites I'd need to have that kind of faith income in the first place, though. And even if I *did* have enough incoming faith, I'd still need to waste promotions on buffs I won't get anything out of unless I'm playing a religious game.

Admittedly your strategy probably works a lot better on larger maps (I usually play on small with a couple of extra AIs), but by the time I've gotten 4 promotions I personally have probably settled most of my cities already.

I think it would be more interesting mechanically if governors were suited to more than one particular purpose, similar to Pingala. Pingala is useful for both science and culture, but all of the others are pretty much geared towards one job in particular. It would be nice if the different promotion paths could help push them towards different roles depending on what you need.

Take Moksha, for example. His specialty is buffing religion and faith. In my opinion it'd be pretty cool if he had a couple of promotions that buffed your chances at a culture victory as well. Maybe something that buffs tourism from relics and religious art, or something that converts holy site adjacency faith into tourism in the city he is located in (just two random quick ideas). That would give him two unique purposes - buffing religious victory and/or cultural victory - and would give me a reason to consider taking him even if I'm not going heavy on religion. And there's nothing stopping you from taking all promotions either if you were playing someone like the Khmer.

I would think this could be done with all of them easily enough. Amani could have a diplomacy pathway and an espionage pathway (she already has one espionage promotion but a lot more could be done there). Victor could have a domination pathway and a science pathway (military research?). Reyna could buff gold and diplomatic favor, maybe. I think this would be a lot more interesting and lead to some more engaging choices.

 

[acluewithout]

I agree with you on Parks and Recreation. It's a big investment in governor titles for a decent local benefit, but if you want more mileage out of it you're looking at 5 turns for every city in which you want a City Park.

Governors are a bit more fun if you’re willing to play around more with the “move the, or keep them established” mechanics. Moving Liang in a Monumental Golden age is pretty fun - you move her in, faith buy a builder, use the builder to chop in districts with the district discount and then replace those tiles with a park, put in some fisheries etc. Then later you can drop her into your cool Volcano and or Coastal City, and spawn all your Builders from that City.

I think most of the governor promotions are boring bordering on trash.

I struggle to care after about title 5. There’s lots of different starting strategies with Governors, but after about 5 titles I find I’ve usually ended up with the same Governors and promotions and then it just gets more samey the more titles I get.

Again, I think what’s missing is that you start with all of the Governors instead of having different sorts unlock as the game goes on, and there aren’t any Governors that overlap so you can’t meaningfully specialise.

As it is, if I want to specialise in City States then I pick Patronage... er, Sorry, I mean “Amani”. I can then place Amani in a City State and get two envoys etc. But the guy next to me also has Amani, not because he’s specialising, but because it’s mid game, we’re all Swimming in titles, and there are only so many Governors so may as well pick Amani.

If there were more Govenors that overlapped - eg Amani, but also er “Bob”, who can also be put in City States and gives two envoys but maybe his promotions focus more on spies or great people or levying - then you could have games where you dabble in envoys by just taking Amani, and games where you really lean in taking Amani, Bob, Carl and er Douglas.

I think it would be more interesting mechanically if governors were suited to more than one particular purpose...

I think it’s only really Moshka that’s Super specialised. All the others are generalists in that they mostly focus on general economy.

Personally, other than Moshka, I think all the Governors are well balanced. Yeah, some are better than others, and it gets hard to get excited about later promotions, but they’re broadly okay. Civ VI tends to avoid OP bonuses / units except in the very late game (eg Rockbands), I assume because FXS are always worried to avoid Super strong “four City Tradition” type Meta.

Again, I think the issue is that the way Governors currently work You’re just not able to meaningfully specialise and it’s really only with the very early 3 to 5 titles that you’re making hard choices.

 

[Pietato]

Liang is bad now because of the Shipyard buff.

 

[The Highwayman]

Pingala and Magnus are great in all games. Moksha is amazing at religious and science (buying spaceports with faith is much better than gold in my experience). Liang's builder charge is great, but the rest is mediocre to terrible. Amani and Reyna are pretty good with situational abilities. The only very situational one is Victor when I need an extra copy of a resource per improved tile. Overall not bad balance beyond the OP Pingala and Magnus chops.

 

[UWHabs]

I'd rather not build all the Holy Sites I'd need to have that kind of faith income in the first place, though. And even if I *did* have enough incoming faith, I'd still need to waste promotions on buffs I won't get anything out of unless I'm playing a religious game.

Admittedly your strategy probably works a lot better on larger maps (I usually play on small with a couple of extra AIs), but by the time I've gotten 4 promotions I personally have probably settled most of my cities already.

I think it would be more interesting mechanically if governors were suited to more than one particular purpose, similar to Pingala. Pingala is useful for both science and culture, but all of the others are pretty much geared towards one job in particular. It would be nice if the different promotion paths could help push them towards different roles depending on what you need.

Take Moksha, for example. His specialty is buffing religion and faith. In my opinion it'd be pretty cool if he had a couple of promotions that buffed your chances at a culture victory as well. Maybe something that buffs tourism from relics and religious art, or something that converts holy site adjacency faith into tourism in the city he is located in (just two random quick ideas). That would give him two unique purposes - buffing religious victory and/or cultural victory - and would give me a reason to consider taking him even if I'm not going heavy on religion. And there's nothing stopping you from taking all promotions either if you were playing someone like the Khmer.

I would think this could be done with all of them easily enough. Amani could have a diplomacy pathway and an espionage pathway (she already has one espionage promotion but a lot more could be done there). Victor could have a domination pathway and a science pathway (military research?). Reyna could buff gold and diplomatic favor, maybe. I think this would be a lot more interesting and lead to some more engaging choices.

I do think holy sites still have a negative reputation - faith is very powerful even outside of the religious game. But I also understand that they have trouble competing with other districts - generally speaking, good holy site spots are either good campus locations (mountains) or good tile (natural wonders) - other than the handful of natural wonders which don't boost adjacent tiles. Or, in terms of using them for "economy", you don't get a trade route like you do with commerce hubs or harbors. So yeah, once you're talking about your 3rd or 4th district now, it's hard to get enough holy sites to reach that critical mass where the faith is rolling in fast enough to use it.