Governor Rework: Reyna

[AntSou]

Intro

Presently it seems there's hardly ever any reason to pick anyone other than Marcus or Pingala as your first choice, unless you're role-playing. I believe that by just having a third choice of governor early game, the experience regarding governors would improve considerably.

The solution: tweak Reyna.


Part 1 - Governor Categories

I believe that governors' design, whether intentionally or not, fall into two categories: universal and circumstantial.

Universal governors have bonuses that make them crucial in every game. Currently that's Marcus, largely due to free Settlers, and Pingala, due to the huge early bonuses to culture and science.

Circumstantial governors are those who have abilities that make them potentially viable at specific points in the game. This includes Victor and Amani, but NOT Moksha (I'll explain in another thread).


Part 2 - Reyna

Reyna is the governor best positioned to compete with Marcus and Pingala, and if we want to improve early game choices, the solution is simple: make her powerful.

Her design should be similar to Marcus and Pingala: the powerful abilities are unlocked in the first row of promotions.

What I propose is a reordering and small tweak to some promotions:


Default Title

Land Acquisition - Acquire new tiles in the city faster. +2 Gold for each unimproved feature.

A useful but not too powerful base title is a good start. Particularly useful in areas with marshes and +2/+2 forests.


Level 1

Harbormaster - No changes

Foreign Exchange - +3 Gold to EVERY trade route TO AND FROM this City.

THIS should be her thing. Being capable to amass gold early on and allow the player to build buildings and units quickly. Designing her this way also enhances Hubs and Harbors as competitors to Campuses and Theatre Squares, forcing the player to make harder choices early game.

The importance of Gold early on is twofold:

- Skip production and save turns;
- Amass a larger army.

I don't need a lot of production if I can just buy what I need, and it doesn't matter if you can build Settlers faster if the Cities you settle will shortly be mine. It is this kind of opportunity costs that the player should be weighing in the beginning.


Level 2

Tax Collector - +2 Gold for each Citizen in the City.

A no nonsense boost, if not as useful as the previous two promotions.


Level 3

Contractor - Allows cities to purchase districts with Gold. (No changes)

Renewable Subsidizer - No changes.

---

Conclusion

The game currently offers two good governors as first choice, which represent two crucial aspects of the game: expansion and tech/culture growth. It needs a third choice.

The third essential aspect - production (and therefore gold) - is not properly represented. Faster production, by circumventing production, should be Reyna's thing.

Just like Pingala allows you to develop a proper cultural/science centre, so should Reyna allow you to develop a commercial/financial hub.

 

[Pure24]

This is an excellent suggestion. Except... 'acquire new tiles faster' is too vague. I'd say let it be specific. The ideal boost for me would be 50%, so "aquire new tiles 50% faster".

So a tile that would take 10 turns to be aquired would be acquired in 6-7 turns, and that makes so much sense for her. Also puts it clear, like the way Magnus has a concise boost.

I'd imagine Magnus wouldn't be so popular if it just read 'bonus to plot harvests and feature removals'

 

[Sykes179]

What would make things really interesting if there was a governor whose usefulness increased gradually over time with the first ability improving depending on how many turns deployed. Remember the cottage to town dynamic in Civ 4. You then have to weigh up the initial hit of magnus with the long term advantage of having a very useful goverbnor in the later game.

 

[Pure24]

What would make things really interesting if there was a governor whose usefulness increased gradually over time with the first ability improving depending on how many turns deployed. Remember the cottage to town dynamic in Civ 4. You then have to weigh up the initial hit of magnus with the long term advantage of having a very useful goverbnor in the later game.

That's an interesting idea. +% increase to the governor's bonus, just as an offhand example, for every x turns the governor is established in a city adds a great reason not to move a governor around.

I can imagine wanting to chop for something in the capital and you want to use Magnus for the boost, but Pingala has been there since the first governor title and is now providing +75% science and culture or something like that.

Quite interesting

 

[hr_oskar]

I feel like you're underestimating Amani here. I don't think she's circumstantial at all. Getting an early suzerainty on top of whatever else you're doing means an extra +1 diplo favor per turn, plus all the other benefits, which can then be sold to the AI for 14-15 gold each or even 1 gpt for 30 turns. That's a really quick way to secure gold early, to fund whatever strategy you're pursuing. Even with your changes to Reyna, Amani currently earns much more early gold to you through sales of diplo favor. Since she can be moved, in most games picking her essentially means one extra suzerainty throughout your game. It's arguably the best bang for buck of your early governor titles.

That said, most of the time I wouldn't want to promote Amani further at all, while Pingala and Magnus are indeed worth promoting regardless of what victory you're pursuing. I agree that Reyna is weak. Magnus' baseline chop boost is overpowered and has a very annoying effect on gameplay - either you organize his grand tour of environmental devastation or you're left with a nagging feeling of not playing efficiently.

 

[King Phaedron]

Reyna is good for the most part, but I would agree with changes to Forestry Management and Renewable Subsidizer. Also with boosting the effect of her "gaining new land faster." As it doesn't seem to help.

1) Why burden everyone with unnecessary choices in the early game? Pingala or Magnus are the best. Llang is sometimes a better choice for the extra builders (unless you are China) Ottomans should choose Ibrahim first, esp if they need to contend with a close neighbor. It's not so much about "Your first governor" as it is about planning your early titles. You get 2 almost together, and an easy 2 more once you build the first government buildings, so it's more like starting with 4.

2) Reyna is actually pretty good. Harbor Master, Tax Collector, and Contractor are quite powerful in the right circumstances. Any map or navy focused game where +100% Harbor adjacency is going to be on all the time, Reyna is a must have. Reyna's ideal city will have a Harbor and Commercial hub next to it. The Harbor adjacency applies to the Shipyard. It's pretty nice having a Shipyard with +15 production, and getting 2 gold per citizen is also nice. Contractor comes a bit late to be super useful, but when playing on Emperor or lower, the AI is so pathetic that you might find yourself building a few cities for them and using the ability to buy them a district. (Which is actually a decent strategy for religious victory if you convert the cities before giving them away.)

During a Scientific Golden Age, the Harbor Adjacency also gives Science. Boosting Science, Gold, and Production for every city with one Card is very good, and the City Reyna controls will the be strongest.

Magnus is actually more of a middle to late game governor. You still need to have constructed builders and researched the right technologies to remove features. Not losing a population from a settler isn't as great as it seems in the early game. It won't be hard to regain the population, and your cities will hit their Housing Cap quickly enough. Magnus is most useful in a game where you intend Religious Victory, and build the Ancestral Hall, to pump out lots of Settlers to make cities in the middle of nowhere, convert them to your religion, and eventually give them to the AI so that the majority of their cities are following your Religion. Otherwise, you have to go to war with them and use inquisitors, or become Suzerain of Yerevan so that you can give all your Apostles the "Proselytizer" promotion. Magnus is super useful in that situation. He's also Super Useful for trading with the Black Market. "Black Marketeer" is very helpful when you reach the late game, and find you can't make any good units anymore except those costing Oil every turn, and there is never enough Oil to go around. That's why you build an army of Courasiers and avoid researching Combustion as much as possible. Same with Privateers. Build em while you can.

Pingala is useful, but not critical. 15% science and culture from your 4 population capital is not even 1 point. You need a good high food city, and both of his promotions to be useful.

A lot of times I start with Llang, for the extra builder points. She's quite useful in the early game when you will likely find a free builder or two from tribes. Getting your districts up faster isn't bad either.

My first 4 governor titles are usually Llang, Pingala, Pingala's Culture promotion, and then Magnus, Reyna, or Pingala's Science promotion. They only get better as your population improves, there is no need to start with Pingala.

In my recent Ottoman game I started with Ibrahim, though I'm now in the Renaissance and haven't found much of a reason to give him any promotions. Ibrahim could be more useful, IMO.

Ibrahim's "Alliance points" is just meh. He's "Head Falconer" is just an identical rip off of Victor's first promotion, and his "decay 1 extra grievance per turn" is hardly enough to be useful for the warmongering Ottomans. Because it isn't about the rate at which grievances decay. Most Civilizations are going to denounce, demand, and hate you long after Grievances have completely decayed, and when your intent on Warmongering that's going to be the cast for the whole game anyway. Finally, his ability to make your cities immune from enemy loyalty is nice, but it's not really worth the bother of promoting him for, when he is better suited for producing units.

I'm trying to think of a situation where Ibrahim's immunity from enemy loyalty would come in handy. Say you capture a city, surrounded by enemy cities, to use as a base while continuing your assault. But then you can't use him for the +5 unit defense, or his "Serasker" ability for helping you defeat enemy encampments. It would be useful, if he simply made the city he is governing immune to enemy loyalty, as then it would stack with those abilities, but as it stands, I don't use Ibrahim for anything other then being a governor and producing units. I even built the Audience Hall instead of the Warlord's Throne in my current Ottoman's domination game, and Case de Contraction, so I am using all 8 governors for a nice boost of housing and amenities.

I would say, make his "Head Falconer" promotion not just a rip off of Victor's, and change his third tier to affecting the city he controls, instead of all cities.

But even then, why bother keeping a city that's going to have a loyalty problem, other then the capital? Just raze it and move on. Better yet, time your actions accordingly, and on the turn you capture the city, transfer your general and/or admiral to the city, upgrade your units, except for the one capturing the city, and then raze it. If you can't do all that in one turn, and you just researched Cavalry, then just capture and raze another city, until all of your coursers are upgraded. Or whatever.

Such extremely circumstantial abilities would be well boosted with something small, yet permanent...

 

[Pure24]

Reyna is good for the most part, but I would agree with changes to Forestry Management and Renewable Subsidizer. Also with boosting the effect of her "gaining new land faster." As it doesn't seem to help.

1) Why burden everyone with unnecessary choices in the early game? Pingala or Magnus are the best. Llang is sometimes a better choice for the extra builders (unless you are China) Ottomans should choose Ibrahim first, esp if they need to contend with a close neighbor. It's not so much about "Your first governor" as it is about planning your early titles. You get 2 almost together, and an easy 2 more once you build the first government buildings, so it's more like starting with 4.

2) Reyna is actually pretty good. Harbor Master, Tax Collector, and Contractor are quite powerful in the right circumstances. Any map or navy focused game where +100% Harbor adjacency is going to be on all the time, Reyna is a must have. Reyna's ideal city will have a Harbor and Commercial hub next to it. The Harbor adjacency applies to the Shipyard. It's pretty nice having a Shipyard with +15 production, and getting 2 gold per citizen is also nice. Contractor comes a bit late to be super useful, but when playing on Emperor or lower, the AI is so pathetic that you might find yourself building a few cities for them and using the ability to buy them a district. (Which is actually a decent strategy for religious victory if you convert the cities before giving them away.)

During a Scientific Golden Age, the Harbor Adjacency also gives Science. Boosting Science, Gold, and Production for every city with one Card is very good, and the City Reyna controls will the be strongest.

Magnus is actually more of a middle to late game governor. You still need to have constructed builders and researched the right technologies to remove features. Not losing a population from a settler isn't as great as it seems in the early game. It won't be hard to regain the population, and your cities will hit their Housing Cap quickly enough. Magnus is most useful in a game where you intend Religious Victory, and build the Ancestral Hall, to pump out lots of Settlers to make cities in the middle of nowhere, convert them to your religion, and eventually give them to the AI so that the majority of their cities are following your Religion. Otherwise, you have to go to war with them and use inquisitors, or become Suzerain of Yerevan so that you can give all your Apostles the "Proselytizer" promotion. Magnus is super useful in that situation. He's also Super Useful for trading with the Black Market. "Black Marketeer" is very helpful when you reach the late game, and find you can't make any good units anymore except those costing Oil every turn, and there is never enough Oil to go around. That's why you build an army of Courasiers and avoid researching Combustion as much as possible. Same with Privateers. Build em while you can.

Pingala is useful, but not critical. 15% science and culture from your 4 population capital is not even 1 point. You need a good high food city, and both of his promotions to be useful.

A lot of times I start with Llang, for the extra builder points. She's quite useful in the early game when you will likely find a free builder or two from tribes. Getting your districts up faster isn't bad either.

My first 4 governor titles are usually Llang, Pingala, Pingala's Culture promotion, and then Magnus, Reyna, or Pingala's Science promotion. They only get better as your population improves, there is no need to start with Pingala.

In my recent Ottoman game I started with Ibrahim, though I'm now in the Renaissance and haven't found much of a reason to give him any promotions. Ibrahim could be more useful, IMO.

Ibrahim's "Alliance points" is just meh. He's "Head Falconer" is just an identical rip off of Victor's first promotion, and his "decay 1 extra grievance per turn" is hardly enough to be useful for the warmongering Ottomans. Because it isn't about the rate at which grievances decay. Most Civilizations are going to denounce, demand, and hate you long after Grievances have completely decayed, and when your intent on Warmongering that's going to be the cast for the whole game anyway. Finally, his ability to make your cities immune from enemy loyalty is nice, but it's not really worth the bother of promoting him for, when he is better suited for producing units.

I'm trying to think of a situation where Ibrahim's immunity from enemy loyalty would come in handy. Say you capture a city, surrounded by enemy cities, to use as a base while continuing your assault. But then you can't use him for the +5 unit defense, or his "Serasker" ability for helping you defeat enemy encampments. It would be useful, if he simply made the city he is governing immune to enemy loyalty, as then it would stack with those abilities, but as it stands, I don't use Ibrahim for anything other then being a governor and producing units. I even built the Audience Hall instead of the Warlord's Throne in my current Ottoman's domination game, and Case de Contraction, so I am using all 8 governors for a nice boost of housing and amenities.

I would say, make his "Head Falconer" promotion not just a rip off of Victor's, and change his third tier to affecting the city he controls, instead of all cities.

But even then, why bother keeping a city that's going to have a loyalty problem, other then the capital? Just raze it and move on. Better yet, time your actions accordingly, and on the turn you capture the city, transfer your general and/or admiral to the city, upgrade your units, except for the one capturing the city, and then raze it. If you can't do all that in one turn, and you just researched Cavalry, then just capture and raze another city, until all of your coursers are upgraded. Or whatever.

Such extremely circumstantial abilities would be well boosted with something small, yet permanent...

While your points are not wrong, most people don't play civ the optimal way all the time. I'm a deity player, but even then I prefer to role play over min-maxing as much as I can.

So I find myself not chopping anything, or otherwise building lumber mills over mines. And so on. Maori also exist. Whenever I play this way, I find that my governor choices vary wildly.

However, whenever I want to beat a challenge (turn 150 culture or whatever), I find that I'm restricted. You need a specific set of governor choices - and that's where the Pingala thing comes in. Shame there aren't different ways of getting to the same outcome

 

[steveg700]

Reyna lets you buy districts with gold, and that's about all I know she's good for.

Her base ability is far too situational because it depends on the AI sending trade routes to your cities, which is not something a person can game. Even with benefits that reward trade routes like Great Zimbabwe or University of Sankore, the AI will often not send routes to a well-developed city. I guess that's because only player cities tend to be well-developed, and it would unbalancing for the AI to be sending all of its cities to the player.

Best design Reyna should account for the fact that players can be hard up for currency in the early game, and flush with cash in the later game. Make it easier to buy things with early promotions, give us things to spend money on with the later promotions.

I'd like it some governors could build a "capital" building that provides a nice multiplier for their respective yields that is at its maximum when the governor is in that city. That's too encourage building those tall, quality cities.