Gr10 - 5CC AWE

[M60A3TTS]

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR10_550_BC.SAV

IBT- Mongols come after us in Uskudar and we get a glorious victory from our Great Leader Orhan. Now to go find some cav.

Turn 1- Some tile improvements

IBT- worker stuff

Turn 2-4 like turn 1. Mongol archer and sword back at Uskudar. Rush a sword there.

IBT- Mongol sword and archer die. No losses. AC-1 out the gate.

Turn 5- Load AC-1 into the army. Osman’s Imperial Cavalry to Bursa. Kill French warrior and bump a sword to elite.

IBT- Quiet

Turn 6- Have to move the army out of Bursa. Can’t take a chance however small, that the one AC would lose. Once #2 fills the army, we have some flexibility.

IBT- French archer dies vs. spear. Pillages road tile. Lit in, science to zero.

Turn 7- Elite sword does no damage to Mongol reg sword. That was ugly. Merge the settler into Istanbul, that shaves two turns off Glib, now due in 12 at 20 spt. Lux to 40% Put the Edrine scientist back into the fields.

IBT- Ouch, trade another sword. Mongols land another by Uskudar.

Turn 8- Quiet

IBT- Mongols lose another sword, French another archer.

Turn 9- Kill a French archer at Bursa.

IBT- Mongols bring up more troops at Uskudar. Now a sword and 2 archers. AC#2 in.

Turn 10- Load AC#2 and kill a French archer at Bursa. That clears the area for the moment. And done.

Next up can use the 5 workers to get Bursa up to a decent production level from the current miserable 3 shields. Glib due in 9. Then we can spin off some workers in Istanbul, or keep it at 20spt and crank out MI every other turn once we hit the MA. Of course feudalism may still be a ways off. My little foray didn't pay off at Uskudar, so maybe we just keep to a hedgehog strategy. Temujin is sending a pretty steady stream there.

 

[Obormot]

AC army and TGL in 9 turns is great news, but why did we build a temple in Iznik? And Edrine is wasting food, why not build a worker there from time to time, even if we don't improve anything workers are still very usefull because we can merge them. We should also build a road to connect the incense. Bursa and Uskudar should build a library to expand borders now that we are more or less secure. Other cities should build libs too they are cheap for us and we should prepair to do self-research once TGL is obsolete (and even better to start self-research earlier). I don't want to see any rifles once we get sipahis, that would be a terrible waste of such an awesome UU . I think i wrote too much stuff in my previous post and nobody actually read it because it was too long

 

[M60A3TTS]

AC army and TGL in 9 turns is great news, but why did we build a temple in Iznik? And Edrine is wasting food, why not build a worker there from time to time, even if we don't improve anything workers are still very usefull because we can merge them.

I think i wrote too much stuff in my previous post and nobody actually read it because it was too long

When I got the game from you, the temple was already under construction.

Edrine is wasting food, but it's at 10 spt. We have to build troops somewhere,esp with Istanbul busy with the GLib. A worker from time to time isn't a bad idea, but we need to get these bad guys off our backs too.

And I did read your post all the way through, and appreciated the detail and screenies. We should be able to make some headway once the AC army is up to strength and the GLib is in. Then we can kick more workers loose to improve the terrain.

 

[Obormot]

The temple was a library prebuild, i think i said it somewhere. Maybe we got literature too late and could waste several shields by switching, but then wasting 60 shields on a temple to save those few shields is not a great idea too

Edrine is wasting food, but it's at 10 spt. We have to build troops somewhere,esp with Istanbul busy with the GLib. A worker from time to time isn't a bad idea, but we need to get these bad guys off our backs too.

If we build a worker there when the box is full or just one turn from growth we'll only have to spend one turn at size=5 and we'll still get the shields from growth thus staying at 10spt 2 swords + 1 worker cycles will work nicely there, though we'll still loose a little bit of food. An MDI + worker will work perfectly. After several such cycles we can start an aqueduct there (assuming we get construction from TGL). We really need to limit the number of units we build in this game or unit support will kill us.

BTW it looks like now we need workers and libraries more then troops now. We all know that we need to constantly grow stronger economicaly to win and since we can't expand here we can only get stronger by building infra and increasing the size of our cities. I think the best we can do is defend with a relatively small number of good units, propably knigths and ACs and use the army for pillaging. I think we should not build cats - they are only effective in big numbers and we can't afford that. We should also replace our swords with horse units as soon as we can. This is of course if we have horses.

 

[M60A3TTS]

I simply don't agree that a temple is a waste. Yes, we need the library for research. But we're not researching at the moment. We won't be researching for a while yet. At least I believe that's the strategy. We have time to get a library in Iznik in time when we start researching.

As far as the Edrine worker idea goes, that's a very good idea. But the go-go growth strategy is going to come up against the reality of our present one-lux situation. We can't run 30-40% lux rate indefinitely either which hurts as much as unit support costs. I think we do need temples. And cathedrals at some point if we're going to have the big cities being discussed.

If I'm way off here, someone please say so, as I haven't done a lot of limited city warfare.

 

[Obormot]

Well, a temple is not really a waste, it gives us one hapy face and takes one coin. After we build a library we'll be able to convert 1 gold into 1.5 beakers thus the temple will be generating 0.5 gold per turn, 1 gold per turn after uni. And it also gives culture. But that is pretty much all it does.

The lux rate is indeed a big problem that makes growth less valuable, but still growth will never harm our research as long as we work roaded tiles and keep all cities at the same happiness level and it will only help if we work roaded tiles along the river. And it increases production which we can use to build stuff like markets and unis faster.

I have never done a 5CC conquest too, but i suspect that we might have some problems once TGL is obsolete. Lets say we manage to clear our starting continent with knights and ACs, but then TGL stops working and we cannot research, we still have knights and the guys on other continents have rifles - that will be ugly. So i want us to start thinking about infrastructure and research in advance. At least when there is no real emergency on the front.

 

[Greebley]

Our UU with Cannon support will be able to make progress against Rifles - or even infantry although that requires a lot of cannon.

I think we want to clear our home continent as quickly. We need Mil Tradition and astronomy, maybe Nav, or Mag. It would be nice to have everyone off our continent by then so we can start the invasion.

 

[Obormot]

Clearing the continent is nice, but we don't get real benefit from it like in a normal game because we cannot settle the land, so i think we should not push too hard on military at the cost of infrastructure, with limited cities infra is much more important. I think we need libraries soon in all cities because they are cheap and we may want to start research as soon as we hit MA to get sipahis earlier (i know we can kill rifles with sips using arty support, but it'll be so much more fun to cut through AI muskets). the 2 cities without culture should propably build them immidiately to expand borders, others should also build libs (except the one that doesn't have fresh water) but a bit later. We don't know if we need Astronomy or not, maybe the other continent is reachable by galleys.

 

[M60A3TTS]

I think we need libraries soon in all cities because they are cheap and we may want to start research as soon as we hit MA to get sipahis earlier (i know we can kill rifles with sips using arty support, but it'll be so much more fun to cut through AI muskets).

I think on a pangea you may have a point, but not in this case. The issue is that we aren't going to out-tech the AI on the other continent as long as they are isolated from us. Those civs aren't yet locked in an AW environment, and will almost certainly be more advanced than ourselves as they're peacefully trading with one another. That's not a problem as the GLib should give us one last burst of techs, but if our cash is depleted through self-research, the strength of what we send over will be smaller. Don't forget the extra cost of the UU will kick in as we upgrade the knights.

Now if another civ shows up in a galley, then the picture may change. But if there's no more contacts in the next couple turn sets, it's likely just us and the French and Mongols for the time being. And I agree with Greebley that we should take the fight to them. Their potential for growth is likely higher than our own due to the terrain. If we stay defensive for too long, the two AIs will be getting to their own UUs which doesn't help our cause.

 

[Obormot]

The level is only emperor, i don't think they will be too far ahead. And they'll research both branches of the tech tree, while we beeline straight to MT. It is definitely possible to get to MT before rifles. But even if you are right and they'll outtech us and we'll have to fight rifles with sips that's certainly better then fighting infantries with knights which very well may be the case if we don't grow and don't build infra . And i don't say we have to stay in defense and build everything, but libraries in southern towns definitely have a higher priority then troops, and so is building workers and later an aqueduct in Edrine. We don't need markets because we have only 1 and potentially 2 luxes and we only need 1 aqueduct and our libs cost 40 shields, so there will still be plenty of time to build troops.

 

[Greebley]

I think how we play tactically is more important than the troops we lose by building infra. One can stay behind walls entirely or one can risk some pillaging, but take the attack to the AI. For example, is our army going to be offensive or defensive? I say it should be offensive and start going for the enemy as soon as it has 3 units. We can survive without it. Defense is a bit harder, but in the long run we gain.

So ya, we do want some infra, but I still want to go on the offensive. Even it is only with the army.

 

[ThERat]

I would use our free units we get until metal for offense and raze, pillage the enemy. At the same time we can nicely build up our core, getting them up to size. Libraries should be fast and no issue at all, we want markets now that we do not need to research for a while.

If we take out our foes on the continent, chances are that we will get a huge surge in techs once the enemy shows up. That is provided they can't reach us before they have magnetism. Someone surely built the Lighthouse, that nation should be able to get to us though.

 

[ThERat]

Roster:
ThERat
Northern Pike
Obormot
M60A3TTS
Greebley - up

since there was no 'got it' message I am posting this

 

[Northern Pike]

For example, is our army going to be offensive or defensive? I say it should be offensive and start going for the enemy as soon as it has 3 units.

I agree. The 5CC condition doesn't change the basic rule of AW: if we aren't advancing, we're losing.

 

[ThERat]

Also, we need to capture 3 cities in one go at a certain time to grab a second army. This would be possible with a nice offense. That army should be kept empty for sipahis. Maybe we could even grab later on a total of 7 cities for 3 armies.
Those 2 armies should not be filled with too many units so that we could transport it overseas and pillage and raze hell there.

I think clearing our home continent won't be possible until RR, we will face too many new towns in the meantime. But, we can raze the core and make sure that Mongols and French aren't a threat at all.

By the way, are we allowed to check the status of the AI? Examples, the techs they have or the amount of gold (would be very important for cash rushes). I think that restriction makes the game too tough.

 

[Obormot]

I agree. The 5CC condition doesn't change the basic rule of AW: if we aren't advancing, we're losing.

That is true to some extent, but not completely. In a normal game advancing makes us stronger and the AI weaker, but in this game only the second part of it works.

Certainly send the army to raze their cores and pillage their iron after the third AC is added. Certainly build enough units to be able to defend and some more if we can secure some luxuries by razing a couple of towns and protecting the area. If we get an MGL we can try a multiple capture operation. But don't devote everything to the offensive push like we did in previous games.

I think that libraries to expand borders in 2 southern towns are a must. Some workers in the northern town are also a must, we have lots of land to improve. Later we'll replace native workers with slaves and merge the natives. After that we should start an aqueduct there. The southernmost town should also build a corthouse after the library because it is almost 50% corrupt and in our case with low rank corruption and high distanbce corruption it will help much more then usual.

Other infra builds are not urgent because of temporarily stopped research, but i would also build a library in Istanbul and a library and harbour in the western town if we can spare some more time for building infra.

 

[Greebley]

To advance more quickly we want to fill a second army right away. I would rather fill it and then keep the last 3 towns to all fall on a single turn. At that point we disband oldest army and build the new. Alternatively when we are "in control" of clearing the continent we disband both and use an existing leader for an army. We then do as above after we get a new leade via leader fishing.

This is one example of where "how we play" is as important than "what we build".

 

[Obormot]

Yes, i agree with you here. I think there was some misunderstanding. I do agree we should try to advance forward and cripple the AIs as usual. What i meant is we need to build more infra then in a normal game. BTW do you know that you are up now?

 

[Greebley]

hmm... Not sure what happened to my "I got it". Ya I did know and thought I had posted.

 

[Greebley]

I keep forgetting to say this. Since there wasn't unanamous vote in favor of the hidden diplomacy (a no vote by Obormot) we will play without hidden diplomacy. We CAN look to see where our opponents are at. Later on we may choose the hidden variant if we want 'greater challenge'. Sorry on being slow on responding on that issue.

Early: I am not sending the army out quite yet as it only has 2 unit in it.
Uskadar seems to be the target of choice for the Mongols who are sending most of the units. We get some bad RNG losing an Elite Spear and Elite sword. We kill a number of archers and a few swords (about 1 a turn).

The following picture is pretty interesting. It shows that someone just built a town near us who we haven't met. It also lists the opponents. The Vikings are on the list. We need to be careful with coastal cities.

Mid: Edrine was at max size so I slipped in a worker build.
More swords are coming at us. Another Spear is lost. Many of the battle are "near things" with us having 1 hp. Slightly worse luck on a few battles and we would have been really hurting.


Late:
410 BC: Kazan is destroyed by the army which now has all 3 units.
Clearing a jungle nets us a BG
Another spear is lost to an Archer.


Find Iron. It is close to the first place we look.

Here is a picture:

370BC: We get the Great Library

IBT: We get all ancient techs except Polytheism, Republic, and Currency. Mongols don't have currency.

350 BC: Raze Tabriz.

Notes:
Built several workers during the turn.

We need more catapults. I would put a second town on it as soon as something finishes.

Uskadar was the focus off all the Mongol attacks.

I checked if the Mongols still have Iron. They do.

I did not meet the purple civ (India I bet) yet.

The most swords we saw in one turn was 3. There is a lull at the moment.

Connecting the incense and putting 2 spear on it would make sense when we have the units.

Almost all the units sent at us were Mongol. France may very well be at war with someone else.

As you can see from the picture I went for the Aquaduct right away. I agree on Obormot that there are some essentials to get immediately. The Library in Bursa also is rated high for the border expansion ASAP.

Uskadar needed a Spear so it just started going for its border expansion. A temple is actually better for this town. It is not going to be a happy camper. Note that some of the unhappiness (it has a tax man) is due to cruel oppression.

The army very obviously should be razing Mongol cities. We are close to the capitol I suspect looking at the boundaries. I would heal and then go after it. Weakening the mongols seems top priority to me (before we meet purple). Note that noone sailed by our coast so they must have come via galley or our continent is much bigger in the west than we expected.