GR2 - Sherman's War (C3C AW).

[T_McC]

Here's what we know of the Aztec lands. You can see they've been hard at work.

What exactly is this army supposed to be doing?

And here is the save:

Sherman in 50 AD

 

[handy900]

Nice work.

No wonder we have seen no Otto & Inca troops. They have no roads to travel on.

Nice of the Aztecs to put a city 2 tiles away from Augusta for us. Some serious wood has been chopped in Augusta.

 

[barbslinger]

Otto and Inca bound! Forward Ho!

 

[Greebley]

Ok, I have got it and will see what I can do.

Decided I was too tired last night to do this game justice. I hope to play tonight however.

 

[T_McC]

Good move to not play this one tired. I think my 10 turns took over 2 hours. Although I do write the report as I play.

Some stats from my turn:
We now have 35 slaves (+14), 25 spears (+15), 11 swords (+0), 6 horses (+0), 12 cats (+3), and 10 javs (+3, but really +0 due to 3 going into the army).

I guess I didn't set you up for immediate offensive action, but I do think you have the full range of options available to you. We have just about enough defense to allow our non-spear units to be used exclusively on offense. We'll probably want 5-6 more spears to free up all the swords and javs on the backline, but if you are hankering to hit the Aztecs again, those units could certainly wait. By the middle of your turn we will know essentially all of the southern lands, and can determine whether this continent has a natural choke point. I'm optimistic based on the way the land curves in the west where Dinky is exploring. I also have a sneaking suspicion that there is a real narrow point on this continent where the Americans (or Aztecs) have built a city, and all the Inca/Otto/Iro units are stuck north of there. We've been at war for >20 turns with each of them, and I think we have only seen 1 non-settler pair unit from the three combined.

If we capture Tenochtitlan, we will have to establish a 4-city front (if we want the cities connected by 3 tiles). And we do want to capture Tenochtitlan for the Pyramids. The new front would look like Tlatelolco, something SW of there, Tenoch.., and a replacement for the American city, and Paducah. Which is 5 cities. I don't know, need more information to make an intelligent assessment.

We are under no threat whatsoever. The Aztecs lack iron and horses, and are 3 techs from building longbows. The Americans are really backward in tech, so must have rather small cities. The only civ with money is the Ottos, who have 123 gold. The others have less than 70 gold combined, hence they are having to build their units from scratch. The Iro are the only ones who have resources for knights (and could be building MW's, hence my thought they are stuck at some choke point).

We built the Great Library, but I don't think any of these guys can do much research for us. I figure one possible plan is to let the tech pace go as slow as possible while we build up our infrastructure (I guess we do need libraries this early), and then race for Chivalry before going on the offensive. Having strong two-move units will make it less critical to build cities so tightly, and may allow us to do more conquering than razing. A working FP would make this a real blowout.

So you can build offensive units, to capture the Pyramids now and try to put Monte out of his misery. Or you can do an entirely infrastructure round, as our cities can't be seriously threatened. Or you could settle a couple of more cities to get our unit support costs more under control. Any of these will work, but I think your decision could impact the next couple of players, particularly if you decide on infrastructure. I (for one) am perfectly comfortable with waiting until knights to go on the offensive. I believe we need to give a lot of worker attention to our core, hence I was trying to send most of the slaves east at the end of my turn. We'll get plenty more at the front during your turns.

It may be that these civs are fighting each other, but the city lists show no evidence of this.

 

[Greebley]

It sounds like I have a good number of possibilities for my turn

I would really like to get the pyramids. It would be a big boon to our growth I think - and be at least as big as simply building infrastructure in terms of our ability to produce.

Are the pyramids in the capitol? I am at work right now and cannot check. If so I will at least consider probing forward to see.

 

[handy900]

Pyramids with our agricultural trait would be unfair. Let's raze the pyramids... on second thought let's keep it.

 

[Greebley]

Preturn: Things look pretty good. I do switch Chattanooga to an aquaduct (I do like the half price aquaducts).

IBT: Some enemy units advance

Lancaster: catapult->catapult

70 AD (1):
Bombard enemy units.

E Jav kills Archer
V Jav kills Archer
V Horse kills Archer
Army kills an Archer and steps on hill to view west. Sees unconnected iron
E Sword kills Spear

I miss part of the river so my attack on an archer fails because the unit runs our of movement. I may get attacked next round.

Science can be lowered to 80%

IBT:
Archer attacks V Sword and wins.
Aztec boat lands an archer

Moved a unit out of Shiloh as last move and forgot to check it after doing so. It riots.

90 AD:
Sword kills "behind the line" archer.
Boat spots American border across the water. Our continent may have a northern and western branch.

E Jav kills Archer
E Horse kills Archer
E Sword kills Archer
V Sword kills Archer
E Horse Kills Archer

Units advanced toward aztec cities.

IBT: Two Settler spear pairs from Ottomans and Iroquois
Tecumseh: Temple->Heroic Epic (for more pillaging goodness).
Sherman: Spear->Spear
Lincoln: Temple->Settler

110 AD:
Attack on Tlateloco:
Bombard both Spears to 1 hp.
E Sword kills an Archer (in city)
E Horse kills an 1hp spear.
V Jav kills last spear gaining a worker. City is taken and renamed. (Is Bedford Forrest a person or place?)
V Sword loses to a R Spear

Change Augusta to a sword.

IBT:
Resistance Quelled + Riots in Bedford Forest Adjust Bedford forest to starve - no improvements to sell.

130 AD:

Bombardment
V Horse kills Archer
V Horse kills Archer
E Sword kills Spear (settler->2 Workers)
E Horse kills Spear (settler->2 Workers)

Move units so I am not attacking Capitol cross river.

IBT: Iroquois & Ottoman units show up including mounted warriors.

Missionary ridge: Spear->Spear

150 AD:
Bombardment
R Sword kills Archer
E Horse kills Archer
V Sword kills Archer

IBT: We learn Feudalism. Science to 0. Set research to Engineering (50 turns).

170 AD:
Bombard
Kill 2 mounted warrior
Attack Tenochiltlan (soon to be Atlanta)
E Sword kills spear
E Sword kills spear
V Sword loses to spear
V Sword kills spear
V Jaf Wins (get slave) vs spear
E Horse wins vs spear and city taken. We have the pyramids. Renamed to Georgia
(Note I thought I lost 2 units... might have forgotten to record one?)

Army kills horse
Swordsman kills Archer.

IBT: Archer attacks spear in Georgia and spear red-lined.

Chattanooga: Aquaduct->Temple
Lancaster: Catapult->Catapult

190 AD: Hurry walls in Bedford forest
Bombardment
Kill Horseman outside of Georgia

Army spots more troops incoming - especially horse.

IBT: No attacks. Georgia's resistance is quelled and riots.
Bedford Forrest: Walls->Temple
Sherman: Pike->Horse

210 AD:
Rush Calix settler
Elite horse kills archer
Elite horse kills warrior

IBT: More troop movement. Lots of mounted units.
We master Republic through the GL.

Bull Run: Aquaduct->Market Place
Shiloh: Aquaduct->Market Place
Calix... abandoned
Resaca: Harbor->Temple

230 AD:
Use regular Sword to help protect an injured horse.

IBT: Archer attacks regular Sword and loses. Horsemen outside our cities now.
Augusta: MDI->Aquaduct

250 AD:
Paducah, Missionary Ridge switched to a temple.
Rush walls for Georgia.

V Horse kills an Archer
Bombard a spear/settler
E Horse kills spear/settler.

Notes:
The heavier warfare is underway now. I don't think we will want to advance much more before knights. Look at the troop situation and see if we need to switch any cities. The number of troops I had were plenty for my turns, but in the last turn or two the war has become more intense.

It is hard to remember to starve the cities every turn (to get to size 1 by the rules).

The Save

 

[T_McC]

Good to see we're making progress. Greebley.

However, in order to avoid major , I advise Handy in the strongest possible terms

SWITCH LSU FROM THE PALACE TO SUN TZU'S

we do kind of need that.

Also, when we are starving cities, the non-workers could be taxmen instead of clowns. We could make an additional 14 gold on the next turn that way. Handy should also do a quick look at the cities to make sure to maximize trade when all else is equal. With these two tricks I got our income to +49 per turn with just a cursory MM.

I agree with Greebley that offensive operations may have to cease until we have knights. I also note a settler being built, any suggestion where it should go Greebley?

Bedford Forrest is for Nathan Bedford Forrest, who I believe was a Confederate General who specialized in cavalry operations.

 

[barbslinger]

When feudal came in I kept waiting to read switched palace to Sun Tzu. I thought I had read in an earlier post that it would be due when we got feudal. I heartily agree with doing the switch. Avoid this weed at all costs.
Great rejoicing on the Pyramids!
The clowns to tax men works great too. I use this in all my games when capturing larger pops, also in totally corrupt cities I build all growth, no mines, and then set a balance on city pop to be zero growth and a few taxmen depending on growth tiles available. You can get a lot of cash out of corrupt cities. 8-10 corrupt, do nothing, cities can generate 30 gpt or so.
Looks like bedford forest is just that! Both that city and Georgia have forests that have to be trimmed. Have worker crew ready to cut in one turn and then protect with an army if available. Those forests have to go with more units coming.
BTW, what is the army doing? It looks like it is heading N from the clear spots on map. We need to find the iron and horses and disconnect.
Good luck generating leaders next turn. When is Heroic Epic due?
Should be a pleasure to look at when I get home. Still at work until late. Damn JSF and tomahawk parts.

 

[T_McC]

Originally posted by barbslinger
I thought I had read in an earlier post that it would be due when we got feudal.

Yeah ... that was an original erroneous conjecture.

Sun Tzu will be due in 9 turns after the first thing Handy does when he gets the save is to

SWITCH LSU FROM PALACE TO SUN TZU'S

 

[barbslinger]

Thank you Civ gods. That will be a most required wonder if we are to quickly conquer our continent. Also on holding off until Knights. Isn't the Aztecs plain out of gas? We can at the least destroy him with an SOD. If we have the extra 5-6 units it looks like we can come around the left flank while defending the right side that looks to be getting the most action. We can raze Aztec cities at least. Leaving open land will get the AI producing settlers and not military. Just a thought.
If we get another army or can somehow uncover more map we can hopefully find a better choke to move to. The wide front we have is huge. [Edit] Just saw the minimap. Looks like a choke further N right before Otto lands.

 

[barbslinger]

“The general's reputation as a contemporary commander stems from his belief in total war”. From the site I found these new city names at.

Ft Sumter
Raleigh
Kennesaw Mountain
Pine Mountain
Nashville
Jonesboro
Hood
Johnston
Polk
Grant
Halleck
Dalton
Davis
Bushwacker Valley
Cobb
Milledgeville
Fort McAllister
Beauregard
Cameron
Griswoldville
Macon
Briar Creek
Buck Head Creek
Waynesborough

Army names -

McDowells 1st Div
Shermans 5th Div
Army of the Cumberland

 

[barbslinger]

The Teno city looks like it might be a good place to move the palace someday. 2 flood plains and 4 oasis, it could be a producer. Any thoughts? Still would like to maybe try the FP too.

 

[barbslinger]

3 things I noticed.

1. Otto horses are on the west coast of their area. Lets get 'em.

2. Lots of workers mining in corrupt land. I feel I would try to consolidate the slaves into a group to clear forest around our new front line. As an ulterior plan, leave 2 in a group just hanging around in an area that 3-4 cities can reach on one turn as bait. They will send their guys trying to free their slaves and we nail em' in a triangulation.

3. If we can clear the forest in Georgia 1st and then have a larger stack in Bedford, it will cause the AI to bypass Bedford to get after Geogia where we can get them on open ground. I read this tonight in Betazed Deity AWD. A bait city. I don't know exactly how this works because what do you knock the enemy out with once they get there? I suppose you could park units just behind the city. Would that work? Looking forward to using a bait city someday.

Well off to GOTM26. I finally read how to use treasure so I can get started in earnest. Good luck Handy, hello SunTzu!

 

[T_McC]

Originally posted by barbslinger

2. Lots of workers mining in corrupt land. I feel I would try to consolidate the slaves into a group to clear forest around our new front line. As an ulterior plan, leave 2 in a group just hanging around in an area that 3-4 cities can reach on one turn as bait. They will send their guys trying to free their slaves and we nail em' in a triangulation.

I second (part of) that. It seems anything beyond Lancaster will be hopelessly corrupt, so after chopping forests those cities may be worth more to us with lots of irrigation/specialists than with mines. Being agricultural and having the Pyramids, we have some margin for error to at least see if we can get a 2nd (or 3rd) shield in these cities, and can probably wait until we build some courthouses before consigning these settlements to the ash-heap of "only good for specialists". But I would say anything we found/capture farther forward of our lines is hopeless to get production out of.

I also agree that we should look to "stack" workers and slaves so tasks complete in 1 or 2 turns. It gives us access to the improved tiles earlier, and makes it more likely we will complete tasks before we have to run. If I counted correctly on Greebley's turn, we have 43 slaves. Handy may want to look into merging our 5(?) native workers back into any of our cities that can add them happily. We'll have enough slave labor to accomplish anything, and would save 5 gpt in upkeep.

Originally posted by barbslinger
3. If we can clear the forest in Georgia 1st and then have a larger stack in Bedford, ... A bait city. I don't know exactly how this works.

The idea of a bait city is to leave one city (behind the front lines) either empty or very vulnerable. Enemy units should then try to pass through your front lines rather than attacking your cities. As they pass, you use all the units (especially artillery) you have accumulated on the front lines to attack enemy stacks. You are taking advantage of the AI targeting algorithm to effectively allow them no offense, as they will wait to attack until they reach their "target".

 

[T_McC]

Originally posted by barbslinger
The Teno city looks like it might be a good place to move the palace someday. 2 flood plains and 4 oasis, it could be a producer. Any thoughts? Still would like to maybe try the FP too.

I think the FP would be a waste of time, as would jumping the Palace to anyplace other than LSU. If the FP worked in Conquests, the former Tenochtitlan would be an ideal placement. What having all that food does mean for Georgia is that it can produce a lot of income as taxmen.

 

[Greebley]

Theres sort of a bit of a story behind the Sun Tzu that I didn't get recorded in my notes.
I did switch to Sun Tzu. However, after I did that my, 1 1/2 year old son got to the computer and did some extremely inadvisable moves, So I went back to an autotave. This meant that my switch to Sun Tzu got negated. When I redid the moves, the Switch got skipped. But since I remembered switching it, I didn't worrry about it or check again.
I am really glad I didn't accidentally build the palace. That would have been very embarrassing. Though technically, even by the RBCiv rules, you are legally allowed to take back moves like this and correct them, though a purist wouldn't. Fortunately, the palace didn't finish so I don't have to have the moral debate on whether to fix it or not.
One thing to note. The forest outside of Bedford Forrest is both a blessing and a curse. Now that the enemy has speed 2 unitis, without the forest they could attack the town from a distance of 1. The forest slows them down so they have to stop and get bombarded by catapults. Now that we have walls though, the forest will be more of a hinderance and will want to probably clear it.

Barbslinger,
If you are playing GOTM, I would play the Open class. I think only the conquest class gets treasure?? The conquest class is for ppl who are not as good. I would judge your skills good enough to play open and the satisfaction of winning is much higher - and you don't get the conquest score reduction. (If I got it wrong and there is treasure in open? Then ignore this comment!)

For the settler, I saw a place on the S coast that still could be useful (a fishing village near the iron would also work). The other spot I thought might be useful is between the two new cities.

And ya, change the clowns to taxmen. You have to readjust every turn. Previous turns I did exactly that. For the last turn I forgot that final step. I was getting a little tired at that point, and didn't do the thorough once over that the game needed.

[edit: Building the FP is not entirely useless. You can get some gain in gold and shields by building it. It improves distance corruption while keeping rank corruption the same.

Some of that unmined territiory is not entirely corrupt. With courthouses, we may be able to get to 50% corruption or so I am guessing. Also as I mentioned above, the forest is currently useful. Once we get pikes up there behind walls (I didn't have a lot of money for upgrades yet), then the forest should come down. When surrounded by forest, I would just leave the last unit of every stack without attacking it which then retreats as I have bombarded it. I think I do have a pike heading toward bedford forest which will guard the town. I would wait for one to also guard the forest choppers and then send up the workers to start clearing.

 

[barbslinger]

Originally posted by Greebley
I would judge your skills good enough to play open and the satisfaction of winning is much higher - and you don't get the conquest score reduction. (If I got it wrong and there is treasure in open? Then ignore this comment!)

Thank you for the kind words Greebley. I am finally feeling more confident with my game and the pieces are coming together. The open has treasure and I just posted.

 

[T_McC]

The situation in the west, with two potential sites for the new city. I prefer the eastern dot, as it doesn't involve river crossings, even though it does generate 1st ring overlap with Augusta.

The potential site in the east:

Would be a low-corruption fishing village. We don't know whether it would get bonus food from the sea or not. Might be worth wandering the spear to the coast to find out before the settler is built. A double-food bonus site would be real nice. One without can probably wait.

On the subject of pillaging, the Iro horses are visible on the map. Cut that and we won't see any more Mounted Warriors. Another potential use for the army up in that area is to cut down every Ancient Cavalry that the Ottos produce. The AC have to pass the army, might as well kill them before they get to our cities.

Also note there is a settler (ours, but Aztec nationality) active in the SW. It is standing on the spot where I would found a new city, to allow full use of the cow.