GR8 - Phoenix Rising

Instead of fighting Aztecs, I would like to fight Hittites again. They are the strongest, they have paid cash for our lux :p , and they don't have rubber yet. If we keep peace with them, maybe they will get rubber somewhere (from Aztecs or trade), then it's much harder to beat them. After beating Hittites, Aztecs is a piece of cake.
And I heartfully don't want to disband any unit for now. We will become communism after finishing wonders, then unit support is not a problem.
 
oh, maybe it wasn't clear, but we stole corporation since it was a monopoly. Well, Ottomans didn't want to trade RP for it.

I would switch off research next turn (since we get sci methods during the IT) and then wait for ToE to be secure before trading it. Hopefully, it will still be a monopoly by then (I assume the AI now tries to get espionage and refining/steel). With AT being a monopoly as well, we can surely trade that for good value as well. I would then wait for electronics trade until we secure Hoover. It's 800s and with our capital now making 60spt, it will take another 12 turns, I think.

Heroes: I really think beating Hittites now is a bad option since they have quite some units running about and swallow the Aztecs. I rather we narrow the front by quickly fighting the Aztecs while building up more units and getting artillery/infantry. once we have that done, we can turn towards Hittites again.
 
ThERat said:
oh, maybe it wasn't clear, but we stole corporation since it was a monopoly. Well, Ottomans didn't want to trade RP for it.

I would switch off research next turn (since we get sci methods during the IT) and then wait for ToE to be secure before trading it. Hopefully, it will still be a monopoly by then (I assume the AI now tries to get espionage and refining/steel). With AT being a monopoly as well, we can surely trade that for good value as well. I would then wait for electronics trade until we secure Hoover. It's 800s and with our capital now making 60spt, it will take another 12 turns, I think.

Yeah, I understand that we stole corportation because it's monopoly. But I was also pretty sure that we couldn't get RP from it ... :) If we can't get RP from SM (very likely), then the total bonus looks smaller than what if we stole RP. But anyway, we could trade communism by SM, and self research RP.

I totally agree your points about shutting off research before ToE and holding electronics before Hoover. :)
 
I too think we should go after the Aztecs. We don't look like we have the resources yet to deal with the Hittites - we won't make any ground. Fighting the Aztecs though will give us maybe a dozen cities. The next war with the Hittites can be with us (hopefully) owning infantry and artillery. We will easily take the ex-aztec cities since the Hittites won't be able to reinforce them being cut in two. We then have a small choke to deal with and will be able to advance.
 
We've got some odd builds going, although I know Rat had more pressing matters to attend to. ;) Isin is about to complete a courthouse, which must have been a mis-click, so that should be corrected before we hit Enter. And we're building numerous temples, which is pointless when libraries are cheaper for us.

I agree that we should attack the Aztecs as soon as Heroes can get things set up to his liking. This whole "fight the strongest" thing strikes me as the logic of the Western Front in WWI, although I won't go into that rant. :D
 
We've got some odd builds going, although I know Rat had more pressing matters to attend to. Isin is about to complete a courthouse, which must have been a mis-click, so that should be corrected before we hit Enter. And we're building numerous temples, which is pointless when libraries are cheaper for us.
:crazyeye: I can't remember about Isin now, maybe I thought it needs it to hit a target spt? Could that be?
Also, since we go for Hoover, it might be better to switch all coal plants (can't remember how many are set to build them).
And the temples are my fault. I forgot about the costs for libraries. It's just my habit to put resisting towns on temples. My bad :(
 
ThERat said:
Also, since we go for Hoover, it might be better to switch all coal plants (can't remember how many are set to build them).

I think we have three coal plants building, and this occurred to me too. But in a situation this promising, I don't mind building a few coal plants as an insurance policy, just in case we don't get ToE.
 
Northern Pike said:
I agree that we should attack the Aztecs as soon as Heroes can get things set up to his liking. This whole "fight the strongest" thing strikes me as the logic of the Western Front in WWI, although I won't go into that rant. :D

Its only worthwhile when there is a run-away or potential run away civ. In this case, the hittites are not either. I don't even think they will get stronger if we wait. They may get some Aztec cities but that won't affect things - we should be able to take the cities before they become useful.
 
there is only one thing we have to look out for, that is rubber. We need to keep Hittites from getting that and some might be hidden in Aztec land. the problem is that we do not have RP yet, so we don't even know where rubber is on our land. Only one thing is for sure, Hittites do not have any.
In 6/7 turns we can trade and need to get RP, then we know where it is, hope that's not too late
 
Preflight, 1300 AD (250):
We have 46 cities, 345 citizens, 13% world area and 20% world pop. Our 147 units consist of 47 workers (and 35 slaves), 4 longbows, 14 rifles, 15 calvaries, 28 cannons (and 2 captured ones), 3 armies, 36 brave Enkidus. Allowed units are 104, so we pay 86 gpt.
International situation:
Hittites: Peace = Peace + Incense, 17 turns left. Owning 22% land and 26% pop, 52 cities, and 6757 gold, they are our strongest rival. Their government is communism, and our military is weak. They are fighting Aztecs. I try to propose MA against Aztecs, but it's "getting close to a deal", damn, Mursilis, what are you thinking? They are up democracy, communism, fascism, and replaceable parts.
Aztecs: No deal except peace. Fascism, weak, 25 cities, no cash nor free gpt. Up the 3 government techs, down corporation and electricity.
Celts: At war, and they don't want to talk. CivAssist tells me they have 32 known cities. Democracy, weak.
Ottomans: Wines + Dyes = 53 gpt, 11 turns left; they pay 90 gpt (for corporation), 17 turns left. Monarchy, weak, 23 gold, > 100 free gpt. Peace with everyone. Up the same techs as Hittites.
Persia: We buy spices, 3 turns left; wines + 20 gpt = ivory, 10 turns left. Democracy, weak, 22 cities, 16 gold, no free gpt. Build embassy for 106 gold, Persepolis has 2 coals, 1 salt, 1 iron, 1 horse, 8 (!) lux, pyramids and Newton's university, 12 citizens, 21 spt, 24 fpt, 103 gpt, building hospital , 60% treasure and 40% science. They are at peace with everyone. Up the 3 governments, down corporation.
I change some buildings, according to the general order of courthouse -> factory -> market -> units. The city Kisurra is so hilarious: I founded it for misunderstanding of FP criterion, and we talked a lot about disbanding it, now it has 11 citizens, harbor, lib, uni, and is building market! The number of tiles that can only be worked by Kisurra is ... 1! So let's make sure to disband it after becoming communism ... I switch the holy market to settler. Nothing is wrong with Isin's courthouse, since it's useful under communism. Hire specialists if they lead to WLTKD. Shuffle units to defend border cities.
My strong feeling is that our production is still quite low, despite having so many cities. Communism is the way to go.

IT: Celt frigates bombard our Enkidu, wow, who cares ...
Pollution hits Sumer. Scientific method -> atomic theory.
Erech coal plant (reaching 40 spt) -> cavalry, Isin courthouse -> cavalry, WLTKD in several cities.

1305 AD (251):
Switch off research, Lagash to ToE, due in 6 turns. We have 37 gold, and will get 556 gpt.
I don't want our units sitting there and eating upkeep. Mursilis, remove or declare! They declare! Their units look so similar to ours, I have to turn on "team color disc".
After bombardment, we kill 2 cavalries near Stockholm, 1 rifle near Akshak. And when our elite cav finishes off a longbow, we meet Lugalzaggesi! He forms our 4th army. Kill 1 cav near Stockholm and capture 2 workers, what were they doing there? Kill another cav near Stockholm, then begin to bomb a stack of 8 cavs just outside our territory. We quickly run out of cannons, but our cav army kills 4 cavs for only 2 HP. Our cavs kill the other 4 and one is promoted. The new army (filled with 2 cavs for now) goes outside
our border and kills 2 cavs, getting redlined. Our last cav kills another cav. Longbow kills longbow. Then prepare defense.
Diplomacy time to buy MA against Hittites:
Ottomans: MA + incense + 1 gpt = MA + 3 gold. I don't want to see they are bought in by Hittites and we lose the large gpt income from them.
Aztecs: gift all our 40 gold, then MA + RoP + electricity + corporation = MA + RoP + communism + WM + all their 43 gold.
Persia: buy in them using corporation.
Since we don't need scientist now, hire a lot of policemen and taxmen.
IT: One rifles in Stockholm sacrifies.
11 cavs enter a jungle tile near Saltsteal, 5 cavs on a hill near Saltsteal, 4 cavs land near Ur.

1310 AD (252):
We are short of cannons ...
Clear 3 cavs and 1 rifle near Stockholm. Bomb and clear the stack of 5 cavs.
The healthy cav army kills the 4 landed cavs.
Talk with Celts, get RoP, all their 3 gold, and WM for peace. Give them wines, and they declare to Hittites.
Upgrade 3 EW to rifles for 630 gold.
IT: Our rifles in Stockholm kill 2 cavs and retreat 6, but 1 regular one dies.
8 cavs march to empty Lagash, rather than attacking Erech guarded by an army.
Madrid lib -> court, Akshak cav -> cav, Erech cav -> cav.
Ottomans begins ToE.

1315 AD (253):
The now healthy cav army kills 4 cavs. Kill the 8 cavs near Lagash, 4 redlined cavs near Stockholm, and 1 cav near Erech.
Time to sell scientific method:
Aztecs gives us democracy, 4 workers, WM, and 3 gold.
Persia gives us free artistry, spices, all their 45 gpt and 76 gold, and WM.
Celts gives us furs and WM. We get 7 lux.
Upgrade 3 EW.
IT: We unluckily lose 3 rifles. Another stack of 13 cavs near Saltsteal. A pair of cav and rifle land near Ur.
Sumer police station -> cavalry, Kisurra settler -> worker.
Celts starts ToE.

1320 AD (254):
We have only 4 healthy cavs. Clear the landed pair. Kill 1 rifle and 3 cavs near Stockholm, and capture a cannon. Kill 3 redlined cavs. Bomb the 13 cav stack.
Upgrade 3 EW.
IT: Our rifles in Incensecity kill 3 cavs. Lose a rifle in Isin. Hittites and Aztecs beat each other near Alesund. Pollution hits Ur.
Umma police -> rax, Erech cav -> cav.

1325 AD (255):
Kill 1 cav near Stockholm, 2 rifles near Incensecity and destroy an artillery, 2 rifles and 1 guerilla near Saltsteal, 1 cav near Lagash, 5 cavs near Isin, 1 rifle and 1 crusader near Erech, 1 crusader near Saltsteal, 2 wounded cav near Erech.
Ottomans and Persia know espionage.
Ottomans: saltpeter + RoP = WM + all their 67 gpt + RoP.
Aztecs: wines = 41 gold + 18 gpt.
Upgrade 4 EW.
IT: No attack, Hittites cavs get frightened by an elite rifle.
Der factory -> settler, Lagash Theory of Evolution -> cav, Kish factory -> cav, Umma cannon -> cannon, Akshak cav -> cav, Marad court -> factory.
We get atomic theory and electronics. People expand our palace.
Ottoman city Edrine completes Universal Suffrage.

1330 AD (256):
Atomic theory is amazingly expensive, it trades to us everything of Persia:
espionage + replaceable parts + fascism + 119 gpt + 165 gold + world map.
We don't have rubber. All the 3 rubbers in our continent are in Aztec territory, 2 of them are connected.
Upgrade 14 cannons. Found New Lagash to catch fish.
Kill cavs near Erech, and an elite cav generates Etana!
For the 1st time some of our cannons go outside our border to bomb.
Ur changes to Hoover, due in 7 turns after MM.
Hire civil engineers and scientists. Research steel, because Hittites already knows refining, science at 0%.
IT: Hittites wants peace, no way!
Der settler -> settler, Valencia court -> factory, Pyongsong market -> factory, Suwon factory -> police, Erech cav -> cav, Isin cav -> cav.

1335 AD (257):
Upgrade 7 cannons.
Elite cav gives us Meskiaggasher when killing cav near Erech! Form another cav army.
Artilleries bomb Hareid, revealing 3 rifles and 2 cavs. We almost run out of attackers, but barely raze it and capture an artillery. Found New Kish on its ruin.
IT: Hittites tries a bit to attack New Kish and Saltsteal but fails, then 6 cavs enter the old kill zone jungle tile near Saltsteal.
Der settler -> cav, Sumer cav -> cav, Lagash cav -> cav, Umma arti -> arti, Kua court -> market, Zabalam market -> factory.

1340 AD (258):
Upgrade 8 cannons. Redline all the 4 rifles in Alesund, capture it and liberate 53 gold. The last attack generates Enmerkar! Sell the only improvement rax, abanbon, and use our settler to found New Umma. There is a coal under the city tile.
Redline 2 rifles in New Ugarit, capture it and literate 54 gold. There are 3 resistors and no improvement. It's flip probability is 1.238% and needs 41 garrisons to reduce that to zero. Upgrade another cannon.
Reveal 3 rifles in Bodo but run out of artillery, throw in army, kill 1 more cav, capture it and liberate 81 gold. Full HP cav army captures Dabrum and liberate 55 gold. Its lone citizen is Celt.
IT: Persia declares war to Celts!
We kill 1 cavs in defense. A new stack of 8 cavs near Saltsteal.
Aztecs cavs kill some enemy cavs, and they get back Xochicalco.
Sumer settler -> settler, Akshak but cav -> settler, Erech cav -> cav, Anshan court -> market.

1345 AD (259):
Upgrade the last 2 cannons. Clear the cavs in our territory.
Reveal 3 rifles in Alalah, kill 1 more cav, capture the city and 2 artilleries, liberate 81 gold, 9 resistors. Bomb Tlalmanalco, find 1 rifle and 1 guerilla, army captures it and liberate 55 gold, all the 5 buddies resist. The remaing big guns enter border of Kultepe.
Found New Bad-Tibira to use 3 tundras and some waters.
Upgrade 4 EW.
IT: Kill 4 cavs in defense, but lose 2 rifles.
Sumer settler -> cav, Stockholm lib -> court, Lagash cav -> cav, Kish cav -> cav, Pamplona court -> market, Umma arti -> arti.

1350 AD (260):
Bomb Kultepe, see 3 rifles and 1 cav, cav army captures it and liberate 81 gold, 8 guys resist. Longbows clean 3 landed cavs near Kish.
Reveal 3 rifles and 1 cav in Karhuyuk. Send in an elite cav, and we see Lugalbanda! A healthy army takes out the other 3 defenders, captures it, gains 1 artillery, and liberates 82 gold, 10 out of 11 dudes are resistors. Kill a cav and enslave 2 workers.
A healthy army kills 2 regular rifles in Yalburt, the new cav army spends 10 HP to finish off the last regular rifle, anyway we capture it and liberate 83 gold, all the 11 people are resisting. Elite cav kill stray cav in open. Found New Agade to make Alca Huyuk inside bomb range for next turn. Send 3 cavs and 1 rifle on a mountain near Hadrumetum, which can be bombed next turn.
Upgrade 4 EW. Put healing armies into Kultepe for safety, and rifles into Yalburt to protect the 2 HP army.
Our lux deal with Persia will expire. I hold for next leader.

Some thoughts:

1. Let's keep fighting Hittites for at least 12 turns (MA with Celts). Although our military is still weak comparing to everyone, we are actually strong enough to occupy 2-3 cities per turn. Maybe we will be close to eliminate Hittites by then.

2. After beating Hittites, go to extinct Aztecs. They are backwards techwise, so we don't have need to do "pointy stick" or buy allys. Simply rob their rubbers, hopefully before they know RP.

3. Our culture is not bad (11107), even more than Aztecs' (10253), and not far from Hittites' (17657). So it makes sense to keep cities. But please make sure to move lots of units to quell resistors in the same turn of capture (when it cannot flip), and move most of them (especially armies) out from the next turn.

4. One of the benefit of allying everybody against Hittites is to slow down tech pace. Hittites' refining didn't spread.

5. The biggest reason why I decided to fight Hittites first is to prevent them from getting rubber. We don't really need rubber until tanks, but infantries do help AI a lot.

6. We don't need to do heartful research. I am just waiting for somebody (preferably Ottomans or Celts) to learn refining, then trade it for atomic theory, and sell refining to Persia. Probably we can even get combustion from atomic theory. From electronics? For sure.

7. Communism or not? I don't have definite opinion now. If we do want to revolt, let's do it right after building Hoover in 3 turns (war weariness just happens recently). But we can win no matter what.

8. I like the C3C new specialists civil engineer and police officer. Even maximally corrupt cities can build infra reasonably fast, but not units. It seems to me that the optimal build order is court -> market -> factory -> police -> then whatever. But we need to keep building settlers from somewhere to help artilleries. Also, please make WLTKD by using specialists if possible and sensible.

9. If we have multiple lux to sell to a civ (like our current situation with Persia), it's best to sell them one by one. That's because the more lux a civ has, the more expensive the next lux.

10. Build only settler or worker from Kisurra, it must go eventually.

11. The unit wall near Ur is to prevent landing, so that Ur can finish Hoover in 3 turns. After that they can go for more valuable tasks, like supressing resistors.

Roster:
Greebley
ThERat
Heroes - just played
Northern Pike - up
Obormot - on deck

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/gr8_ad1350.zip
 
The nearest 2 rubbers in Aztecs:
 

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And our front with Hittites:
 

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nice war, though you decided to take on Hittites...brave decision. Good thing we can get both ToE and Hoover, there is nothing much that can stop us now.
I suggest to not fill armies with 4 units until we can build transports. <aybe we can still use another leader to rush the pentagon and the Mil Academy to strengthen our armies.
 
ThERat said:
nice war, though you decided to take on Hittites...brave decision. Good thing we can get both ToE and Hoover, there is nothing much that can stop us now.
I suggest to not fill armies with 4 units until we can build transports. <aybe we can still use another leader to rush the pentagon and the Mil Academy to strengthen our armies.

It's sort of scary to see tens of Hittites units swarming into our territory in the first turns. :D But we have so many tricks to deal with them, -- good lesson from our experience before 10 AD! :lol: After their cavs run out, we can go ahead quickly.

I agree your points about leader. But we only have 8 armies, and can support 15 (soon). I would rather just form 3-cav armies until we reach support limit or run out cav.
 
The criterion of healing of a unit after fortifying is NOT that it doesn't move in this turn, but that it doesn't spend movement. Therefore, we can move a unit from anywhere into a city with barracks via railroad, then it will gain full HP next turn. I don't know whether this is well known, but anyway it's indeed useful. :)
 
The criterion of healing of a unit after fortifying is NOT that it doesn't move in this turn, but that it doesn't spend movement. Therefore, we can move a unit from anywhere into a city with barracks via railroad, then it will gain full HP next turn. I don't know whether this is well known, but anyway it's indeed useful.
hope everyone knows that basic of the game.
 
Fine round, Heroes. :goodjob: As long as you can generate that many leaders we won't quibble about your choice of opponent. :lol:

Got it.
 
Good turn Heroes. Your reasoning on keeping the Hittites from rubber is certainly a good one. I personly would have gone for the easier war, but either choice is good I think. We won't have Infantry for our Hittite attack, but it looks like we are doing fine without.

We may be also able to build Pentagon/Mil Acad from scratch once we are comfortable with the number of units we have.

I think we have enough time to go for completely conquering our continent first before we need to consider the other one. Last I checked the Ottomans had over 1/2 the Celts culture. We should keep an eye on it though.
 
Accoring to Alexman, Nopt = OCN * (L/100 + c + Gr + Gp*Nwe + 0.25*Ni).

Now OCN=28 (large map), L=60 (deity), c=0 (not commercial), Gr=0.1(nuisance corruption as republic), Gp=3/8 (not communism), Nwe=1 (FP), Ni=0,1,2 depending on cities.
Therefore, for a city without courthouse nor police station, Ni=0,
Nopt=28*(0.6+0.1+0.375)=28*1.075=30.1.
A court or police will increase it by 7, so the biggest Nopt is 44.1.
OTOH, if switch to communism now, Gr=2, Gp=3, smallest Nopt=28*(0.6+2+3)=28*5.6=156.8, biggest Nopt=170.8. After building SPHQ for 200 shields, this will be increased by 3*OCN=84, so 240.8 to 254.8.

Under communism, even court and police don't effect much in Nopt, they influence distance corruption a lot: a city without either one suffers 1/4 distance corruption, 1 improvement drops it to 1/8, 2 to 1/16.

Our current income under republic is: 1249 raw gpt from cities, -466corruption, -48 unit upkeep, -217 maintenance, +392 from other civs, -21 to other civs, net gain 889.
CivAssistant says that under communism it would be: 764 raw gpt from cities, -192 corruption, 0 unit upkeep, net gain 726. The difference is -163 gpt.

There are only several corruption levels under communism: 0% for capital Ur, 16% for FP city Der, 19% if having both anti-corruption improvements (only Umma for now), 26% if having 1, 39% if having neither.
Now under republic, we have a variety levels of corruption: 0% for Ur, 5-10% for 4 cities, 12-20% for 8 cities, 24-30% for 5 cities, 41-50% for 5 cities, 53-59% for 6 cities.

In terms of cav or artillery (80 shields) factory, except Ur, under communism we have: 2-turn, 1 (Erech); 3-turn, 4 (Umma gets 39 spt without MM); 4-turn, 7; 5-turn, 7. All these cities will produce 1/2+4/3+7/4+7/5=0.5+1.333+1.75+1.4=4.983 cavs per turn.
Republic: 2-turn, 3; 3-turn, 3; 4-turn, 4; 5-turn, 2. The sum is 3/2+3/3+4/4+2/5=1.5+1+1+0.4=3.9 cavs per turn. The advantage of communism in production is roughly a cav per turn, which seems offseting the -163 gpt drawback in commerce.

Interestingly, we can say that the difference of ~ 1 cav comes entirely from the 5-turn factories. That's just the power of communism: turn many otherwise futile cities into productive ones.

With turns go by, we will have more and more cities, war weariness will be more and moretroublesome, so communism will be better and better.
Conclusion: I suggest we revolt when we feel having enough units to proceed.
 
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