Grand Strategy Thread

[tomasjj]

The idea of a fallback plan, with domination being target one and 20k being the fallback, sounds sensible.

Exploration is a must imo. A strong core too, but these two need to be properly balanced. We need to get our hands on those early techs needed for defence unit building and the settler factory(pottery), at the same time as our own research goes towards the slingshot.

As for alliances, of course, this debate is slightly premature, but it gets us to start thinking actively. That is good.

I am not sure if the civs with a strong AA UU will be separated on the map. This would give them an advantage, as presenting them their neighbouring civs as their fixed targets. Maybe the mapmaker will place them in relative contact with eachother, so that they might fight each other?

The others will know that we can become a MA IA monster, so them letting us toddle along with our building without being involved in any wars might be overly optimistic.

 

[zyxy]

To survive the early stage of the game, we will need luck. The luck that nobody will attack us. Like everyone else, fortunately.

Celts and Iros will want to use their UU's and can be expected to team up. At least I would, if I were them. Fortunately for us, they will probably want to reach republic or monarchy before they pull the trigger (either together or separate). This gives us some time for diplomacy, and I think that is a very important tool, especially for a civ that shines late.

IMO games like this are decided by military, and I don't like the 20K option at all. Everyone will see this coming from miles away, and it eats up resources like nothing else. Besides, how many turns does it take to get to 20K? Probably about 400?

Exploration and contacts are very important IMO.

Zeus is a rather good idea, but I don't think we need to be very quick about it. 300 shields is a big investment for any team, and requires that you can put aside a strong city. (This doesn't combine well with the analysis that we will be weak early on, btw). The gain is nice, but modest - 1 AC per 4 turns is not a gamebreaker IMO.

I am not certain that we can ignore the military techs for too long. Spears are ok for scaring away barbs and early intruders, but human players tend to see a lack of horses and swords as exploitable weakness. At least it would be good to know the location of iron and horses fairly early on.

Btw, starting techs of our opponents:

BABE (Iro): Alpha + Pott
FREE (Sumer): BW + Pott
SABER(Ottom): BW + Mas
GONG (Celts): CB + Pott

We start with Alpha+BW. The first has a lot of trade value, the second hardly any.

 

[fe3333au]

Thanks for that ... unfortunately we do no have a unique technology

Ceremonial Burial (60) = 1
Masonry (120) = 1
Alphabet (150) = 2
Bronze Working (90) = 3
Pottery (60) = 3

However it seems we have an advantage in the value of trading options

EVERY team we meet we will have the advantage which is very good diplomatically.

1. GONG we get Ceremonial Burial AND Pottery for Alphabet AND still 30 gold of haggle/goodwill in our favour.
2. SABRE we get Masonry for Alphabet with a potential for 30 gold haggle in our favour.
3. BABE we get Pottery for Bronze Working with a 30 gold haggle/goodwill factor.
4. FREE we get Pottery for Alphabet AND a massive 90 gold worth of haggle.

I assume we all agree that Writing is our first Research project, as there will no doubt be a race for Philosophy with BABE.

 

[Niklas]

I'm not so sure about that race, I hope not, but I definitely don't think we should research anything but Writing first.

I've deliberately stayed out of this thread so far due to lack of time, expect me to have a lot more to say over the next few days though.

And why is everyone so afraid of Chamnix? He may be good, but I beat him to the Eptathlon...

 

[fe3333au]

well done ... I'm actually impressed with every team's makeup, look forward to starting.

I suspect it will be in the new year

 

[donsig]

And why is everyone so afraid of Chamnix? He may be good, but I beat him to the Eptathlon...

Speaking for myself, I'm a very poor player when compared to the likes of Chamnix. (Well, compared to most anyone actually.) It's kind of funny the rules discussion he's involved in. If I played against him and used all those exploits he'd still beat the tar out of me with one hand tied behind his back. I don't think there was anyone else of his ability heavily involved in the last MTDG. If that's true this game then we all have something to fear. Don't get me wrong, I look forward to the challenge and hope to learn things from this game. It's good to hear we have an Eptathalon winner on our team!

So, is there a consensus that we go for writing and philosophy as our first two projects? If so I suggest we start a thread about this so we can get down to brass tacks.

 

[General_W]

Donsig hit the nail on the head.
Chamnix was one of the most skilled players in the last MTDG (although, there were several other heavyweights, they weren't as active or were stuck trying to revive a nearly doomed civ (Dnuts)… and did a pretty good job with what they had!)

Anyway – I'm thrilled to have you on our team Niklas… (or I'm thrilled to be on your team?) anyway – as long as you stay active, you can be our stealth Chamnix!!

 

[peter grimes]

Niklas - there are several of us Councilmen who served with Chamnix on MIA in the last MTDG. Simply put, there's no way the game would have gone the way it did without him. There were some very skilled players on MIA, but he really had a point of view that was so nuanced, so focussed, and so deliberate that it was obvious he was playing on a different level than many of us.

That is not to say that he was playing on a different level than everyone! Far from it. I learned more from being a part of MIA than I did playing on my own for 5 years (i never took it very seriously, obviously ).

But when some of us look at Saber with trepidation, please understand where we're coming from. We rode to Victory on his coattails (more or less), and now he's one of the more vocal members of a team we are competing against.

Yeah,... I guess some of us are a little worried

 

[Niklas]

I never said he wasn't good. He is, very good in fact. I just saying he's no monster, and we should not set our strategy differently because he is on one of the teams. We should assume that all teams have very talented players, and set our strategy accordingly (at least until they prove differently ).

Actually, going by GOTM results, the one player I would be really worried about is Kuningas (Team FREE). He's one of the best GOTM player there ever was, and would beat me and Chamnix both 9 times out of 10.

Luckily this is not GOTM, this is a multi-player game, and just because you are good at dealing with the AI doesn't really say all that much. Too bad for me though...

 

[tomasjj]

So, is there a consensus that we go for writing and philosophy as our first two projects? If so I suggest we start a thread about this so we can get down to brass tacks.

Well, usually slingshot would be the way to go. However, we might have to nick some military tech like the wheel or iron working to reveal resources if we start in a pressurised position. So thinking about a plan A and B and maybe even a C is useful, but making detailed ones are not necessary yet imo.

 

[zyxy]

Can we afford to research writing without any military techs? (well, except the fairly useless BW, that is.) Team Doughnut tried the Philo slingshot last game, and got nearly killed in the attempt. Having no military techs makes you look weak.
In any case we'll need potts quite early, so if the Iro head for Philo right away we probably cannot beat them. And can we postpone pottery until after writing? I think I need to see the start before deciding on this. A free tech is nice, but a big and well defended empire is nicer.

EDIT: in the empire management part it certainly helps if you're good at the single player game. In diplo it still helps a bit, but other skills come into play as well. So I am not too scared of Kuningas or Chamnix - other teams could be just as scared of us because we have the most active and skilled diplomat from the first MTDG on our team. And remember it is a team game, and the voice of one wise man can easily be drowned in the clamour of ten fools.
Btw, Kuningas was on my team in the previous MTDG (Doughnut). Unfortunately he was not very active in the initial stage, and mostly posted cryptic oneliners that often went unnoticed. Just to say: not everybody knows he's good, and he may not even help them much.

EDIT2: interesting link. A MP strategy overview by Friedrich Psitalon.

 

[peter grimes]

I never said he wasn't good. He is, very good in fact. I just saying he's no monster, and we should not set our strategy differently because he is on one of the teams. We should assume that all teams have very talented players, and set our strategy accordingly (at least until they prove differently ).

Actually, going by GOTM results, the one player I would be really worried about is Kuningas (Team FREE). He's one of the best GOTM player there ever was, and would beat me and Chamnix both 9 times out of 10.

Luckily this is not GOTM, this is a multi-player game, and just because you are good at dealing with the AI doesn't really say all that much. Too bad for me though...

I agree wholeheartedly. Every team is just as weak, and just as deadly, as every other. That's what makes MP so unnerving

When Kuningas took over as DNUTs turnplayer, MIA was worried. Very worried. That's when it seemed like their game turned around. However, their lack of diplomatic contact made their intentions clear. What was it that Winston Churchill was purported to say? "Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice dog' while reaching for a big stick". Diplomacy will make or break any well-managed civ here.

If the last game is any guide, we'll see screencaps of our start in the next week or so

 

[donsig]

Can we afford to research writing without any military techs? (well, except the fairly useless BW, that is.) Team Doughnut tried the Philo slingshot last game, and got nearly killed in the attempt.

I don't think they were ever near death (until MIA started bombing them anyway). We attacked them because we stumbled on one of their workers and decided to take it. We did and ended next to an undefended city which they then razed. There was a jungle seperating us and by the time we got a small invasion force ready they had mounted warriors. Their biggest mistake was being so afraid of us after we took that worker!

You make a good point about having military techs. If we are near the Iroquis then we will want horses.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I dunno - maybe all we need is archers. A force of MW, on it's own, as an invasion force, has problems with defense. We'll be able to make 3 archers for every 2 MW they can make - granted, they will be in a GA for the beginning of their invasion. Horsemen are better, of course - MW can't retreat - but they are more expensive.

The big problem will be Gallics - we really need swords to beat them off. Fortunately, gallics are expensive and celts won't have as productive a core as we will.

 

[zyxy]

I dunno - maybe all we need is archers. A force of MW, on it's own, as an invasion force, has problems with defense. We'll be able to make 3 archers for every 2 MW they can make - granted, they will be in a GA for the beginning of their invasion. Horsemen are better, of course - MW can't retreat - but they are more expensive.

The big problem will be Gallics - we really need swords to beat them off. Fortunately, gallics are expensive and celts won't have as productive a core as we will.

How can you defend with archers against MW? Humans play different than AI's, our archers would never get in striking range of fast units until it is too late. And they are always exposed after an attack.
I think fast units are a must, even on defense.

Speaking for myself, I'm a very poor player when compared to the likes of Chamnix. (Well, compared to most anyone actually.)

Hm, is this our first turnplayer speaking?
(no worries, you'll be fine.)

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Archers on roads are faster than MW, not on roads. We aren't worried, at first, about taking land - we are worried about keeping land.

Archers won't help us defending or outlying towns, because they can't get through enemy territory, but they can help in the core, where we have cultural expansions and MW get stuck.

 

[donsig]

I agree that defense should be our prime focus militarily but I'm not sure yet which defense will be best. We will be able to tailor our defence to the neighbors we have. I would like to point out that we won't have much cultural expansion till we get literature (unless we research ceremonial burial and build expensive temples).

Here's a chart I made up concerning each team's initial research prospects. I'm interested in figuring out what a race to philosophy would look like and this is a first step in that direction. Next step is to try to figure out how city growth and road building would affect the speed of research. Going straight for writing would take alot of terms and would require us to explore a bit fast so we can find trading partners.

Technology         (nn/nn/nn)*   Korea   Celts   Iroquois   Sumeria   Ottomans
 
Alphabet           (50/38/30)     has               has
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Writing            (50/50/48)             XXX                 XXX       XXX
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bronze working     (30/23/18)     has                         has       has
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iron working       (50/45/36)             XXX       XXX
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ceremonial Burial  (20/15/12)             has
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mysticism          (40/30/24)     XXX               XXX       XXX       XXX
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Masonry            (40/30/24)                                           has
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wheel              (40/30/24)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Warrior code       (30/23/18)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pottery            (20/15/12)             has       has       has

*= Raw turns to research at 3 beakers per turn (bpt) / 4 bpt / 5 bpt.
By raw I mean not adjusted for subsequent increases in bpt due to city growth and or road building.
I used a standard (random) map on emperor level with these five civs to compile this information.

XXX = can't research at start

 

[fe3333au]

Just so everyone knows ... in addition to a settler, we also start with a worker.

 

[peter grimes]

The goodnews from the chart is that we have a very good chance of running into someone with pottery!

But I supposed we won't be able to wait forever if we don't run into somone fairly early.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

We can easily get philo if we go for it if the Iroquois do not. If the Iroquois go for philo, we probably won't get it, since they grow faster than we do.

Iroquois is the only civ who can beat us to philo. The question is - will they go philo? or will they go for MW?