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Great People Tech Prefences

Discussion in 'Civ4 Strategy Articles' started by DaveMcW, Nov 15, 2005.

  1. namliaM

    namliaM Chieftain

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    I just thought I would leave my mark on this thread as well and make "public" my techtree which I made from these lists.

    I think looking at the techtree and finding the numbers is easier than using a list.

    See my sig or if it ever disappears from my sig find it here on imageshack
     
  2. Wodan

    Wodan Chieftain

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    Very nice. You're right, it is easier.

    However, you should fix the spelling on "Prophet" and "Engineer". :)

    Wodan
     
  3. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    I don't think it's easier.
    I copied the whole thing into a simple text file, I search for the tech I want to beeline to and check who can lightbulb it and what there is on his list before my target tech.
    Of course I need the tech tree too, to see the prereqs and such, but since you can't do a search on a picture, I don't understand how you would use your image version.
     
  4. Wodan

    Wodan Chieftain

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    Why would you have to do a text search for a tech that you already know where it is in the tree? That's the whole point... you don't have to do a search in the first place, thus it's easier.

    Wodan
     
  5. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    except when the tech you want to lightbulb is number 22, and you don't know where the other 21 are :p
     
  6. namliaM

    namliaM Chieftain

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    The point of the tree is that you "simply" must not be able to research/bulb a lower tech, who cares if you are about to bulb tech #22 where #21 is??
    When #21 is ... Mass Media while #22 is ... CS and #10 Masonry is blocking you from bulbing CS.

    I think the tech tree is nicer cause I can picture where I am on the techtree much easier than find where I am in a list (which is all over the place in the techtree). Then find the tech I want to bulb or can bulb right now. And see what I have to do (or not do) in order to get where I want to go.

    Some people are visual, others are conceptual (lists) to each his own.
     
  7. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    that must be so, i'm a conceptual guy (it's linked to "auditive" kind of people, AFAIK)
     
  8. DaviddesJ

    DaviddesJ Chieftain

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    I don't find the tree at all useful, but to each his own.

    If we are fixing spelling errors, it sure would be nice to change the title of this thread from "Prefences" to "Preferences".
     
  9. UNeverNo

    UNeverNo Chieftain

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    Which Tag in Civ4TechInfos.xml determines the order? Could you explain that please or somebody else?
     
  10. EmperorFool

    EmperorFool Chieftain

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    From this post by DaviddesJ and looking at the XML file, here's what I understand.

    For any particular great person type, first sort the techs by their flavor value and then sort ties by the order the techs appear in the file.

    For example, the religion flavor values for a few techs (in file order):

    • Mysticism: 9
    • Meditation: 10
    • Polytheism: 10
    • Priesthood: 10
    • Monotheism: 10
    • Monarchy: 4
    • Literature: 4
    • Code of Laws: 7
    Sorting by value, file-order gives

    1. Meditation
    2. Polytheism
    3. Priesthood
    4. Monotheism
    5. Mysticism
    6. Code of Laws
    7. Monarchy
    8. Literature
    Yay, they are in the correct order. Note that some intervening techs are missing, like Theology, Divine Right, Masony, and Civil Service, but this is because I left them out of the file list. They have flavor values that would place them among the techs I have listed, even though they appear later in the file.

    The above techs are the only ones I tested by looking at the file.

    One mod idea I'd like to pursue is to put this information into Sevopedia, but I'm wrestling with how.

    The easier way is to list the previous and next techs prefered by each great person type.

    For example, when looking at Civil Service, you'd see

    • Scientist: Music / Democracy
    • Prophet: Code of Laws / Monarchy
    • Artist: Metal Casting / Guilds
    • Merchant: Monarchy / Guilds
    • Engineer: Optics / Nationalism
    If you were expecting a Great Scientist and wanted to pop for Civil Service, you'd need to know that you either have every higher-valued tech or that you couldn't research them presently (lacking prerequisites).

    The above mod would help you backtrack along the path, but would require a bit of busy-work for the player.

    A better solution would drive at answering the key question: what must I research and/or avoid researching so that I can pop for this tech?

    Can anyone explain what information to display to answer this question?

    Continuing the example using a GS and Civil Service, assume you have every tech higher in the list except Music. To avoid popping for Music, you must avoid having Music's prerequisites. Both require Mathematics, but Music also requires Literature or Drama. Thus you must avoid researching Literature or Drama as either would open up Music.

    Figuring this out is a PITA using the first method I described. It would be better to list this information on both Literature and Drama using your current known technologies.

    • It knows Civil Service is the next tech in line for a GS because you cannot research or have researched all techs prefered by the GS.
    • It knows Music is higher in the list.
    • It knows that Literature is a prerequisite.
    • It would say on Literature: "This tech will allow GS to help research Music rather than Civil Service."
    It would need to say the same thing for Drama, and in the case where a tech had two required prerequisites say so. (If you had to have both Drama and Literature it would say, "This tech along with Drama will allow GS to help research Music rather than Civil Service.")

    For bonus points, on Civil Service it would say, "Drama or Literature would allow GS to help research Music." I think this is less important, and it would be complicated if there were many missing techs higher in the list.

    Is there a better way to represent this information in-game? I'm up for a challenge! I think I could bang this out in Python without too much difficulty if we can think of a way to accurately and clearly present the information. It's all there in the XML and TechInfo objects.
     
  11. EmperorFool

    EmperorFool Chieftain

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    Sorry, I didn't clearly answer your question. The tags in particular in Civ4TechInfos.xml are within the <Flavors> element

    Code:
    <Flavors>
    	<Flavor>
    		<FlavorType>FLAVOR_MILITARY</FlavorType>
    		<iFlavor>3</iFlavor>
    	</Flavor>
    	<Flavor>
    		<FlavorType>FLAVOR_RELIGION</FlavorType>
    		<iFlavor>6</iFlavor>
    	</Flavor>
    	<Flavor>
    		<FlavorType>FLAVOR_PRODUCTION</FlavorType>
    		<iFlavor>2</iFlavor>
    	</Flavor>
    	<Flavor>
    		<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GOLD</FlavorType>
    		<iFlavor>2</iFlavor>
    	</Flavor>
    	<Flavor>
    		<FlavorType>FLAVOR_SCIENCE</FlavorType>
    		<iFlavor>2</iFlavor>
    	</Flavor>
    	<Flavor>
    		<FlavorType>FLAVOR_CULTURE</FlavorType>
    		<iFlavor>1</iFlavor>
    	</Flavor>
    	<Flavor>
    		<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GROWTH</FlavorType>
    		<iFlavor>4</iFlavor>
    	</Flavor>
    </Flavors>
    
    I assume it maps them intelligently, for example Great Merchant uses FLAVOR_GOLD.

    For techs with the same value, it uses the order in which they appear in the file.
     
  12. namliaM

    namliaM Chieftain

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    how about using my techtree numbering to enter the information directly into the techtree itself?

    Determaining what is bulbed by whom next is hard as you have to determain what someone is going to research in the meantime, while displaying the bulb order would allow someone to manipulate the techtree in such a way he can bulb what he wants.
     
  13. EmperorFool

    EmperorFool Chieftain

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    The main thing I see being useful is when you have a particular expected type of great person on the way (or one lying around) and want them to lightbulb a particular tech.

    You may need to acquire some other techs first:

    • Prerequisites for the given tech
    • Cheaper techs higher in the preference list
    On top of that, you may acquire other techs while waiting to pop the great person:

    • Unrelated research
    • Trading opportunities
    In all these cases you need to know which techs to acquire (to make your desired lightbulb possible) and which techs to avoid (to keep from enabling a tech that's more highly valued by the great person).

    Given that the game knows what you have already researched and the preference orders for all the techs and great people, it should be able to tell you this without knowing your intented lightbulb tech. For each great person, the game already chooses which tech to lightbulb using this information. I'd like to present this to the user, along with the effect of researching each possible tech individually.

    "If I research Literature, which great people will change the tech they will lightbulb?"

    Once I get that presented, I figure we can extend it to consider multiple techs at once.

    "If I research Literature, what other techs that I can research right now must I research to get each great person to change the tech they will lightbulb?"

    The latter is important because if a tech has two prerequisites that I haven't researched, I can safely research one of them without changing the tech to be lightbulbed.

    I haven't looked at your mod code yet, but can you quickly answer one question: did you type in the list data yourself, or are you inspecting the TechInfos to generate the numbers in the tech tree?
     
  14. ruff_hi

    ruff_hi Live 4ever! Or die trying

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    I am actually thinking along the lines of a tech bulbing screen. The top would contain your current research options (what techs are available to research) with the first column being blank while the left side would show the 5 Great People. The body of the screen would show the tech that the GP would bulb.

    Thus, if you looked along the GA line, it would show the current tech that a GA would bulb, the next column would show the tech the GA would bulb if you knew the tech at the top of that column (it might be the same, it might be different).

    This would help you work out what type of GP you wanted but it would also warn you off researching a certain tech.
     
  15. UNeverNo

    UNeverNo Chieftain

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    Aaaah! I took a look into Civ4TechInfo.xml before and saw only 4 Entries. Seems as if Firaxis does not use empty tags.
    Thanks :goodjob:
     
  16. namliaM

    namliaM Chieftain

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    The problem with such a screen is this bulbing list is not exactly liniar.... Researching a certain tech may just block you from bulbing the exact thing you are trying to bulb...

    I.e. I want to bulb Education ASAP with a Scientist...
    The strangest thing happens if I dont research Meditation... Philo is blocked and Education is the first tech on the list after researching paper.

    How are you going to fit this into a liniar thing? You dont... I dont think so... Cause it is all over the techtree....
     
  17. Jeff1787

    Jeff1787 Sarge

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    Here are two charts that might help. One has all of the BtS technologies listed in alphabetical order and the preference of each GP to research. The other has the research order of each GP on one page.

    Next week when I get BtS I will double check all of my figures and post again.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Jeff1787

    Jeff1787 Sarge

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    Here is the other one...
     

    Attached Files:

  19. levyavi

    levyavi Chieftain

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    I have a question regarding the light bulbing.
    Sometimes the GP is able to discover the technology from scratch. On other times it only adds beakers to research. Does anyone know how does it work? is there a cap to the # of beakers that a GP can contribute?
     
  20. DaviddesJ

    DaviddesJ Chieftain

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    Great Scientist gives up to (1500 + 3*pop) beakers
    Other Great People give up to (1000 + 2*pop) beakers
     

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