Great People to Shake Up Civ VII

[Zaarin]

Sam Houston(Early Modern)
Fredrick Douglass (late industrial)

These two could both do double duty as Great Revolutionaries and Great Ministers, much like Ben Franklin.

 

[Phrozen]

These two could both do double duty as Great Revolutionaries and Great Ministers, much like Ben Franklin.

Saigo Takamori as well.

 

[Saxo Grammaticus]

Here are some more ideas, some of which may be branching out too much. We shall see!

Ministers:
Cao Cao (classical)
Catherine de' Medici (early modern)
Margaret of Parma (early modern)

Revolutionaries:
Akhenaten (ancient)
Alcibiades (classical)
Aristophanes (classical)
Francis of Assisi (medieval)
Savonarola (early modern)
Teresa of Ávila (early modern)
Tomás de Torquemada (early modern)
Ignaz Semmelweis (industrial)
Harriet Tubman (industrial)
Aimé Césaire (atomic)
Joseph McCarthy (atomic)

Religious reformers rather than founders fit the second category from my understanding. Is the cut-off modern? A Red Scare could be an interesting end to a game...

 

[Saxo Grammaticus]

I also dislike the randomness and tortured distribution mechanism of the current Great Person implementation both of which are a consequence of their variety. I'd prefer them having a predictable component or perhaps being able to chose from a small selection (3-5) to alleviate the randomness.

On a side note, I personally prefer mods that greatly expand the number of great people to tackle the distribution issue. It helps with pace and tempers even the science bias--especially for games with 12+ civilizations. As for the random abilities, I like the unevenness. Adding more great people takes the "What if my opponent gets Rajendra Chola?" risk and magnifies it.

 

[Zaarin]

Cao Cao (classical)

He seems more like a revolutionary to me...

Akhenaten (ancient)

No, because I want him to lead Egypt.

Teresa of Ávila (early modern)

If you'd said Bridgette of Sweden, I'd see where you're coming from, and maybe even Catherine of Sienna (despite being sainted her mystical works definitely leave a lot of orthodox Christians of any sect feeling just a little uncomfortable), but in what sense is Teresa of Ávila a revolutionary? Despite being a mystic, her teachings were entirely orthodox; her practices weren't terribly radical--charity has been a staple of the Christian faith since day one. Same point for St. Francis of Assisi, to be honest.

Joseph McCarthy (atomic)

Isn't he literally the exact opposite of a revolutionary, i.e., a counter-revolutionary?

 

[Saxo Grammaticus]

Fair points all around.

I'm not all that familiar with Cao Cao, and after another look, seems like it would be overly narrow to categorize him as a Minister. Probably he would best be described as a Great General.

You can have him as an Egyptian leader! Some of the proposed names are already alternate leaders for presently available mods, so I don't mind the overlap. The main reason why Akhenaten strikes me as a superb choice is due to the old Civ IV Buddhist block. What a great revolutionary to pick up for the foremost early religion!

There's definitely some wiggle room with representatives of Christian religious tradition. Teresa of Ávila and Francis of Assisi came to mind as proponents of radical monasticism (though not so much for Francis), poverty, and mysticism--all of which would seem to run contrary to the material development of Europe. I think both were viewed as problematic by authorities even if ultimately they could be endorsed. For Teresa of Ávila, her followers were subject to persecution and imprisonment prior to official acceptance. Both their legacies also left religious authority vulnerable to wider resistance. That said, they are among a pool of candidates that fit or exceed that role.

McCarthy's destabilizing tactics of purging the administration and instilling a culture of paranoia are more what come to mind for why he would be a late-game challenge. I'm also open to his just being a bad minister.

 

[Zaarin]

eresa of Ávila and Francis of Assisi came to mind as proponents of radical monasticism (though not so much for Francis), poverty, and mysticism--all of which would seem to run contrary to the material development of Europe. I think both were viewed as problematic by authorities even if ultimately they could be endorsed. For Teresa of Ávila, her followers were subject to persecution and imprisonment prior to official acceptance. Both their legacies also left religious authority vulnerable to wider resistance. That said, they are among a pool of candidates that fit or exceed that role.

This is fair, though in the case of Teresa of Ávila and John of the Cross it's a matter of where they were: Spanish Catholicism was hyper-orthodox and hyper-regulated; I don't think anyone would have batted an eye at them in France or Italy. In the case of Francis, I don't recall him facing serious opposition. While the Franciscans became a significant part of the Church establishment that fell under criticism both by Protestants and reforming Catholics, St. Francis himself is remarkably uncontroversial; even many Protestants admire him (e.g., modern day Protestant mystic and singer Rich Mullens called himself "a kid brother of St. Frank").

In place of St. Francis of Assisi, I'd suggest one of the founders of the Spirituali movement, a Catholic movement in Italy devoted to reforming the Catholic Church around the same time as Martin Luther. Though it stayed within the confines of Catholic orthodoxy and opposed the Protestant Reformation, it was eventually condemned as heretical. However, it contained some very influential people among its numbers, including several cardinals, poet Vittoria Colonna, and Michelangelo; Pope Paul III may have sympathized with the movement. Someone like Cardinal Jacopo Sadoleto would fit the bill. Alternately, the Jesuits were extremely controversial in their day, and I don't think you could find a more radical religious revolutionary than Ignatius of Loyola.

Replacing Teresa of Ávila, I'd recommend Bridget of Sweden. Like Teresa of Ávila and Catherine of Sienna, she was part of a spur of female visionary mystics that appeared in the Late Middle Ages (see also: Joan of Arc and Julian of Norwich). However, she also got involved in politics, condemning the king and queen of Sweden. She was also the founder of a monastic order, the Bridgettines or Order of the Most Holy Savior. She might better fit the bill as a revolutionary.

Speaking of Julian of Norwich, I want her as a Great Writer in Civ7.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Okay, have updated the OP with all the suggestions so far, and added some 'commentary'. Many of the proposed Great Ministers have, in the past, also been used or proposed as Leaders for Civs, and I've noted that. Many others could have two or more alternative Great People characteristics, and I've noted that also.

Finally, there are several that I do not agree belong as Great Ministers/Revolutionaries at all, and I've suggested alternative positions for them.

Everything, of course, is open for discussion.

One thing that I suspected would happen, and it has, is that people have suggested over twice as many Great Revolutionaries as Great Ministers - everybody loves a Rebel! This is also good in game terms, because a Great Minister would normally be a much more 'permanent' addition to your Civ, changing only when you (voluntarily or involuntarily) change Governments, lose your Capital, go into a Dark Age, or otherwise make whoever is currently in charge and blamable become very expendable. Great Revolutionaries, by contrast, would show up, mess up your plans, and disappear pretty quickly.

A general observation, is that a lot of the names presented are either anti-colonial 'revolutionaries' or religious reformers, both of which, I think, will require some serious re-thinking of Civ VI's colonial game (it really doesn't have any) and Religions. JFD in his Mods suggested a Great Theologian, for example, to make use of all the Great Prophet points that become useless after your first Great Prophet, and I have adopted that in my overall lists of potential Great People, and made note of some examples here. I think much more has to be done to 'reform' Religion in Civ VII, and that will affect even more of the names presented here.

 

[Phrozen]

Would Witold Pilecki be too recent? Technically, the people he was rebelling against were invaders and then a puppet government.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Would Witold Pilecki be too recent? Technically, the people he was rebelling against were invaders and then a puppet government.

Many Great People in Civilization. lived during Pilecki's time, so no. In fact, Thomas Sankara is on the list already, and he was born after Pilecki died.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Would Witold Pilecki be too recent? Technically, the people he was rebelling against were invaders and then a puppet government.

He's not too late. I want to keep Revolutionaries out of the last Era (Information), but anything earlier is, I think, appropriate, and Pilecki falls firmly into the Atomic Era.

I've added him to the OP.

 

[Saxo Grammaticus]

Here are some early Chinese suggestions, mostly selecting for agricultural/tax/political reforms.

Ministers:
Guan Zhong (classical)
Zichan (classical)
Mozi (classical)
Li Kui (classical)
Li Si (classical)
Shang Yang (classical)
Wu Qi (classical)

And...are assassins up for great felon status? They seem to fit the bill for a temporary disruptor.

If so...
Yao Li (classical)
Zhuan Zhu (classical)
Jing Ke (classical)

I'm not 100% confident in the ancient-classical split for the non-Mediterranean world. Probably all of these individuals could fit under a classical designation for convenience as none of them rose to prominence before the Spring and Autumn period.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Here are some early Chinese suggestions, mostly selecting for agricultural/tax/political reforms.

Ministers:
Guan Zhong (classical)
Zichan (classical)
Mozi (classical)
Li Kui (classical)
Li Si (classical)
Shang Yang (classical)
Wu Qi (classical)

And...are assassins up for great felon status? They seem to fit the bill for a temporary disruptor.

If so...
Yao Li (classical)
Zhuan Zhu (classical)
Jing Ke (classical)

I'm not 100% confident in the ancient-classical split for the non-Mediterranean world. Probably all of these individuals could fit under a classical designation for convenience as none of them rose to prominence before the Spring and Autumn period.

Since I detest the hard and fast Era dates and don't like having them in the game at all, I'm using the approximate Civ VI dates for reference purposes in this Thread:

Ancient: - 4000 - 1000 BCE
Classical: - 1000 BCE - 500 CE
Medieval: 500 - 1400 CE
Early Modern/Renaissance: 1400 - 1700 CE
Industrial: 1700 - 1900 CE
Modern: 1900 - 1940 CE
Atomic: 1940 - 1980 CE
Information: 1980 - 2020 CE

So that's the "Era" reference you'll see in the lists when I add your suggestions - I've already changed some of them.
I could use the specific birth-to-death dates for the individuals named, but in many cases, especially for birthdates, those are very approximate in the eras before Early Modern or Medieval.

As for assassins, since I've got Guy Fawkes on my original list of Great Revolutionaries (because they don't have to be Great Successful Revolutionaries!) and I have Hassan-i-Sabbah on my list of Great Felons, assassins are definitely in.
Hassan is a Great Felon (IMHO) instead of a Great Revolutionary because he operated outside of normal State systems, had his own physical power base (Alamut), and applied his "Hashashin" against several different State opponents at once, both Christian and Moslim

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Mine (Asian)
Minister
Industrial Era
- Itou Hirobumi
- Li Hongzhang
- Chuang Bunnag (ช่วง บุนนาค)
Modern
- Generallismo Plaek Phibunsongkram (จอมพลแปลก พิบูลสงคราม)
Atomic
- Kukrit Pramos (มรว. คึกฤทธิ์ ปราโมช)

Revolutionary
Industrial-Modern
- Dr. Sun Yat Sen
- Ryoma
Modern
- Pridi Banomyong (ปรีดี พนมยง)
Atomic
- Ho Chi Minh

 

[Saxo Grammaticus]

Thanks for clarifying eras!

Glad that assassins fit the vision. In my experience, Firaxis seems to have focused on offering a narrow base but ample room for modded content when it came to Great People and City States for Civ VI. I definitely agree with at least starting out with a hearty list of names.

To that end I offer three more ministers as a show of good faith:
Thomas Wolsey (early modern)
Sir Thomas More (early modern)
Sir Francis Walsingham (early modern)

 

[Zaarin]

Thomas Wolsey (early modern)

"Religious buildings cost double upkeep and religious pressure from your cities is halved but changing state religion and reforming your religion cost half price; can be dismissed for free."

 

[Saxo Grammaticus]

Some general thoughts so far...

I like where Great Ministers are. Would extend their range to include cabinet members, advisors, regents, possibly social reformers that don't fit another category. Something that might work well for the new type of great person would also be consorts who wielded significant power but did not necessarily lead a country in their own right. This is where a figure like Catherine de' Medici makes more sense to me.

As for Great Revolutionaries, it's still a bit of a mystery where to draw the line. Someone like Yuan Shikai, for instance... Is he a bad Great Minister? a Great General? a civilization leader? a Great Revolutionary? That's probably more related to the flexibility of interpreting historical figures. One plus would be a built-in conflict/secession component. William the Silent and Lautaro could initiate protracted peripheral unrest, whereas An Lushan and Garibaldi would jeopardize core provinces. This seems like a major strength in terms of contesting both the builder and conquest styles of play. I have definitely enjoyed Historical Spawn Dates, where it's possible to have a true golden age as Phoenicia and then explosive conflict when Spain, Mali, and France come into play.

The lack of a colonial dimension to Civ VI is its own issue. It seems questionable whether colonization/colonialism (let alone decolonization) would constitute inevitable parts of any strategy game. To that end, Négritude figures shouldn't be ignored, but rather probably need to be conceptualized independent of a colonial mechanism.

Likewise, religion has that issue, too. It reminds me of the old trope of westerners waiting for an Islamic reformation to take place. Does each religion follow the same course of development? In this way, Great Theologians are a great interpretation of game mechanics to recognize historical individuals' contributions.

Probably both religion and colonization/colonialism need their own threads!

 

[Saxo Grammaticus]

"Religious buildings cost double upkeep and religious pressure from your cities is halved but changing state religion and reforming your religion cost half price; can be dismissed for free."

Fair but could be more benevolent too.

"Double relationship modifiers (fewer grievances for declaring war; allies more likely to join war), -25% revenue, and +10% culture."

Of course, who knows about grievances--and as I recall there is quite some resistance to percentage modifiers--but a mid-game minister who could ease the consequences of war would probably be a welcome addition.

 

[Zaarin]

Something that might work well for the new type of great person would also be consorts who wielded significant power but did not necessarily lead a country in their own right. This is where a figure like Catherine de' Medici makes more sense to me.

I don't mind regents or particularly influential consorts as leaders where they can be justified (and I definitely think CdM falls in this category: she basically ran the country during her sons' reigns, and France has no queens-regent to choose from), but I agree that there are a lot of influential queens-consort who would make perfect candidates for Great Ministers:

Nefertari
Nefertiti
Naqi'a
Serua-Eterat
Theodora
Eleanor of Aquitaine
Marguerite d'Angoulême (queen-regent of Navarre, not a queen-consort, but sister of King Francis I and highly influential in his court, also a proto-Protestant and a talented poet)
Catherine I of Russia (ruled briefly as regent but not significant enough to be considered as a leader; her daughter Elizabeth, on the other hand, would make an interesting alternative to Catherine the Great Yet Again)
Hurrem Sultan

 

[jsciv69]

Great Writer-Mario Puzo. Known works: The Godfather,The Sicilian
Great General- Douglas MacArthur-
Great Musician- Eddie Van Halen
Great Admiral-Chester Nimitz