Great Wonders Elimination Thread

[lotrmith]

It's a forgone conclusion but on principle, Forbidden City still offers more flexibility without any random factors compared to Kilwa. At best you get base 3 econ cards in T1 gov't. At best 4 in T2, which I spend the bulk of my games in (and more often than not, still 3 as I am most often in Theocracy). T3 Communism gives 4.... So, at almost all times excepting Future governments, the Wildcard from City, which may as well not even have a placement requirement, offers the greatest increase to the most powerful factor of the game (how many Econ policies you can run). Timing card swaps doesn't give you that same power .. you delay builders, you delay wonder chops, you lose turns of gold/faith/science bonuses. Not so with City.


Worth mentioning since so many people are decrying the single desert tile requirement of Pyramids on Shuffle maps... if you end up with a coastal/oceans type of map you're actually at a significant disadvantage with Kilwa. Not only is there more coast for the AI to place it, competing with you, but you're limited in exploration to Cartography to find your requisite city states, which is on the opposite side of the tech tree to Machinery for Kilwa. People either aren't mentioning or are significantly downplaying the likely scenario of your 2nd city state of X type (on average across all map sizes and city state types there will be exactly two of each type) being undiscovered for a significant portion of the game, and how difficult it may end up being to wrestle control away from another heavily invested Civ, or to liberate a conquered one on the opposite side of the map.

I have no objection to the premise that Kilwa offers the greatest potential, but it does suffer from being the least reliable.

Good game!

Forbidden City [3]
Kilwa Kisiwani [10]
Pyramids [24]

 

[bengalryan9]

Forbidden City [eliminated] (3-3) It's great, but it does lose effectiveness as the game progresses.
Kilwa Kisiwani [10]
Pyramids [25] (24+1) I can always, always, ALWAYS make use of extra builder charges. Always.

 

[JJOne]

Kilwa Kisiwani [11] (10+1)Unlike others here, I go after the bastards who dare to conquer MY city states... so I get the 30% culture or science in most games.
Pyramids [22] (25-3) second place is good enough.

 

[kaspergm]

Kind of shocked to see Oracle eliminated as #4, but as things stand, there's only one winner left for me.

Kilwa Kisiwani [8] (11-3) Just too situational to be #1.
Pyramids [23] (22+1) Not the best wonder in the game imo., but the best one remaining.

 

[Josephias]

+1) Pyramids (23 >> 24) Just end with this fast: was trying to build a case agaist pyramids by comparing it to Forbidden City - Big Ben auto-stacking serfdom/public-works in the extra slot, but Pyramid wins by large: earlier, cheaper, and comes at a point where all production you can save in extra workers is highly beneficial (not to say a potential combo with a monumentality GA)

-3) Kilwa Kisiwani (8 >> 5) Probably one of the most interesting habilities to get in game and to play with. I made the case in favour of it earlier, showing how it can make you rethink your city state strategy... but now, it cannot counter the simplicity and raw strenght of the Pyramids bonus.

Kilwa Kisiwani [5]
Pyramids [24]

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

Kilwa Kisiwani [2] (5-3)
Pyramids [25] (24+1)

I've been a vocal champion of KK all thread long, but the people have spoken. I don't want to prolong the inevitable, so let's end this. Still happy KK made #2, as it really is a fantastic wonder and I'm glad others appreciate it too. Good game, everyone!

 

[Archon_Wing]

Not that it matters anymore, but just a final word.

Mids-- +1 Indispensable in both science and culture victories. However, if we're going to ding Kilwa for RNG, then sometimes you can't build this wonder at all. That being said, you usually can find desert somewhere and it takes a while to go.

Kilwa-- -3 Suffers from high AI priority. However, I disagree you need science/culture CS's to make this work. That's just hitting the jackpot. Even a production/gold only boost Kilwa will probably outdo the grand majority of the list anyways. Plus 3 envoys is quite a few too, even for lone science/culture CS situations. But hey, at least it didn't lose to Oracle. (Though that wonder isn't RNG dependent at all)

Kilwa Kisiwani [0] Eliminated
Pyramids [26]

Also RIP Mausoleum. I felt like the instant burst of science/culture/faith makes it the best wonder in certain circumstances as well as its availability, but overall I can't really complain about the results. gg I guess.

 

[hhhhhh]

Now that it ended. I'd like to thank @CrabHelmet for posting and thank everyone for voting. (And can we get a summary in #3?)

I will post the natural wonder elimination thread tomorrow since it seems like people (including me) are busy judging the August update release notes.

 

[bbbt]

Not a huge shake up (with one exception) compared to the one from two years ago: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/world-wonder-elimination-thread.632513/page-24

Both Artemis and Coliseum placed a bit lower than prior, I wonder if the amenities changes in todays patch (removing the default +1 amenity per city) would have changed that? Likely not.

Big exception: Casa de Contratación was a top 10 wonder in the game 2 years ago, and didn't even make the top 30 this time!! What changed there? Anything or random subjectivity?

 

[Josephias]

Big exception: Casa de Contratación was a top 10 wonder in the game 2 years ago, and didn't even make the top 30 this time!! What changed there? Anything or random subjectivity?

You're saying that's the biggest exception!? SoL!

Now that I'm postings, thanks to all colleages promoting these threads

 

[lotrmith]

Not a huge shake up (with one exception) compared to the one from two years ago: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/world-wonder-elimination-thread.632513/page-24

Both Artemis and Coliseum placed a bit lower than prior, I wonder if the amenities changes in todays patch (removing the default +1 amenity per city) would have changed that? Likely not.

Big exception: Casa de Contratación was a top 10 wonder in the game 2 years ago, and didn't even make the top 30 this time!! What changed there? Anything or random subjectivity?

Artemis and Colo definitely move up based on the Amenities changes. Also Entertainment districts now provide major adjacency for theater districts, so the arguments against building an ED for Colosseum lose a lot of merit.

Casa was overrated based on governor excitement. Now that governors are well understood and clearly delineated, Casa gives you 3 promotions precisely when you no longer really need them.

 

[CrabHelmet]

Now that it ended. I'd like to thank @CrabHelmet for posting and thank everyone for voting. (And can we get a summary in #3?)

I will post the natural wonder elimination thread tomorrow since it seems like people (including me) are busy judging the August update release notes.

Yep, I'll update the summary in 3 for tomorrow morning.

 

[bbbt]

You're saying that's the biggest exception!? SoL!

I thought Casa moved up more than SoL moved down, but it was a very quick count tbh. At least SoL has an explanation as it completed changed with GS.

Speaking of GS, I don't think any gathering storm wonders even cracked the top 20! Orszaghaz came the closest.

Artemis and Colo definitely move up based on the Amenities changes. Also Entertainment districts now provide major adjacency for theater districts, so the arguments against building an ED for Colosseum lose a lot of merit.

Casa was overrated based on governor excitement. Now that governors are well understood and clearly delineated, Casa gives you 3 promotions precisely when you no longer really need them.

That makes sense with Casa.

I'm curious to play and see how much difference the amenities change makes. The Coloseum was also easier to build at launch because wonders didn't require a district in the same city. I.e. you used to be able to slap an entertainment district down in a secondary city, and then build the Colosseum in the tile next to it owned by say your capital. Now you have to burn the district slot and build the Colo in the same city. I don't remember when that change got patched in.

 

[TCBB]

. The Coloseum was also easier to build at launch because wonders didn't require a district in the same city. I.e. you used to be able to slap an entertainment district down in a secondary city, and then build the Colosseum in the tile next to it owned by say your capital. Now you have to burn the district slot and build the Colo in the same city. I don't remember when that change got patched in

I don’t dispute that this might be the case with Colosseum, but it’s definitely not a universal rule for every wonder. I know because today I built Oxford in my capital, thanks to being adjacent to a campus belonging to another city.

 

[Josephias]

I don’t dispute that this might be the case with Colosseum, but it’s definitely not a universal rule for every wonder. I know because today I built Oxford in my capital, thanks to being adjacent to a campus belonging to another city.

I think the rule is bent in the following way: as long as you have the district in the building city, you can build it adjacent to any district of the that type.

Or in other words, it is not a single requirement with two premises (i.e: you should have a *building* and be adjacent to it), but two separate requirements (i.e: you should have a *building* in the city + the wonder should be adjacent to (any) *building*)

Therefore, it's possible you could build Oxford in your capital, adjacent to other city campus, because your capital had also a campus somewere.