Greed

[TractorBoy]

1 - My first attraction to CIV1 were the words "The hardest level could only be beaten by a game designer or "Sid".

2 - Unlike the mathematicians who work out exactly what they are going to do before they even start playing (fair play to them), and knowing exactly what they are going to do when the game is launched. I am a stupid old git and when I do achieve something of note (in my eyes), I don't even know how I did it!! When I attempt to beat said game, I have another challenge and although I might remember some of what I did, the new game is another course of common sense as always.

3 - CIV5 is launched, my grandchildren can beat it, it is farcical!

4 - Over time (2 years) imperfections are ironed out.

5 - Forum members have become very good players even on Deity and partly due to the realisation that courthouses are not working the way they should and giving three extra happiness per City, however this is finally put right, just at the point when G&K is launched leaving an expansive game on Vanilla extremely difficult.

6 - I have much unfinished business as regards the VANILLA version, but to beat whatever times I have previously set is a challenge beyond belief, however I didn't give up!

7 - Due to being antagonised by a guy called vexing, I joined, and competed in the HOF and stuffed him, finishing way top of the vanilla VVV HOF tables! How did I manage that? Because I never give up, and as a stupid old git (everyone on the HOF forum thinks I am) I have retired for good, but with a mild satisfaction of what I have done.

8 - G&K is launched and every body raved about it, how could anybody play Vanilla now? If they do, then they must be complete idiots! Well I obviously am. All of a sudden there is an influx of Deity players, and in no time whatsoever!

9 - BNW is launched (I don't even own it), finish times have come down dramatically even on Deity, and this is not the Civ challenge that I used to know! OK granted there are play through's, a tactics forum etc, etc, but this game is not supposed to be easy and that is why we love it so much. I look forward to CIV7 (as long as I am not a drunken old senile person by then) because the next one looks like a load of crap to me! I suppose I could go back to playing space invaders!! CHUM, you will never invade my space no matter how hard you try! Get the hint!!!!!!

EDIT - The whole point of this post is to emphasize my thoughts on the greed of game designers in general, make the game easier, make the victory conditions achievable much quicker and satisfy the lust of the younger gererations who need quick satisfaction and won't be passing on their genes in a hurry.

Moderator Action: Taunting of others is trolling, and unacceptable.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[DeletedSettler]

Blah, blah, old thing good, new thing bad, young generation is just oh so terrible compared to my supreme master decade, I am the superior gamer because I tolerated crappy games and understand that old thing good, new thing bad, so on, so forth, etc etc etc.

After some thought I decided to write a little more:

Unlike the mathematicians who work out exactly what they are going to do before they even start playing (fair play to them), and knowing exactly what they are going to do when the game is launched. I am a stupid old git and when I do achieve something of note (in my eyes), I don't even know how I did it!!

Generally, if you're playing a strategy game like Civilization, flailing around and not even being sure how you did something be called "being bad at strategy". Do you really achieve any satisfaction when you have no clue how you got to where you did?

The mathematicians are, in fact, the superior players, as they're working out and strategizing on the best way to beat the game, using the game's mechanics. How much planning and strategy do you consider "acceptable"? Shouldn't their ability to work out exactly what to do in most any situation be commendable as expert strategists, the people who have clearly bested and mastered the rules for this game of strategy? After all, their plan and strategy is obviously working out well for them. Or, on the other hand, isn't the fact you CAN mathematically work out the game so well a sign that it's a terrible strategy game that you shouldn't bother playing, because it lacks meaningful decisions that you can't boil down into an equation? I mean, even Chess and Go haven't been fully 'solved' yet. You want to play a game more easily broken than those? Why?

The entirety of point 9

So.... you don't even own BWN, but isn't letting that stop you from complaining about it and how it's ruined things. You don't own the next Civ game either, but aren't letting that stop you, so I guess you're at least consistent.

I'm not really sure how any of this has anything to do with game designer greed. Greedy game designers instead milk the gaming journalist press for all its worth for their game to become known as the Game Of The Decade 2010-2020 Millennium Edition Fifty Awards Before Launch and ride the hype train to profits (see: Titanfall, an astoundingly mediocre-to-bad game that was supposed to be The Greatest Thing Ever).

Or they make really bad kickstarters and walk away with the money.

 

[Chum]

CHUM, you will never invade my space no matter how hard you try! Get the hint!!!!!!

This is inflammatory trolling sir.

Well, this whole post is. But especially this line. Uncalled for.

Moderator Action: If you have a problem with someone's post, please report it, rather than responding in thread .

 

[Socratatus]

I understand tractor boy`s anger at the way things have gone with gaming these days and much of it is true, for example, i hate how we are all forced onto Steam with no way to play without it. I don`t need Steam and don`t want it, but Firaxis as many other publishers just don`t seem to care. But does he really need to post this in such a harsh manner and what does he really think he`s going to achieve? If he wanted to change young minds, that attitude won`t make it happen and if he wanted to change Firaxis, that won`t do it either.

 

[DeletedSettler]

I understand tractor boy`s anger at the way things have gone with gaming these days and much of it is true, for example, i hate how we are all forced onto Steam with no way to play without it. I don`t need Steam and don`t want it, but Firaxis as many other publishers just don`t seem to care.

You should probably be more upset at 2K Games, the publisher and distributor, than Firaxis, the developer. 2K likely made the push for Steamworks, which makes sense, since in today's PC gaming world not putting your game on Steam in some fashion is straight-up a bad business move. Not making a DRM version is probably an effort thing since Steam is the PC gamer pie, they're just out a slice. I suppose there's always GOG if you want DRM-free, but they don't have quite as many games. Or stick to indie/freeware games, they might be accommodating.

Steam does have an offline mode, for what it's worth. Although if you have an opposition to using the client itself, that's a different problem, and you just have to take it or leave it. And if you decide to take it, why not embrace it? There's great sales, stuff like the workshop makes mods easy to check out. Steam's pretty cool.

 

[Socratatus]

You should probably be more upset at 2K Games, the publisher and distributor, than Firaxis, the developer. 2K likely made the push for Steamworks, which makes sense, since in today's PC gaming world not putting your game on Steam in some fashion is straight-up a bad business move. Not making a DRM version is probably an effort thing since Steam is the PC gamer pie, they're just out a slice. I suppose there's always GOG if you want DRM-free, but they don't have quite as many games. Or stick to indie/freeware games, they might be accommodating.

Steam does have an offline mode, for what it's worth. Although if you have an opposition to using the client itself, that's a different problem, and you just have to take it or leave it. And if you decide to take it, why not embrace it? There's great sales, stuff like the workshop makes mods easy to check out. Steam's pretty cool.

Oooh. Another Steam Acolyte! They`re never far away from any criticism of their god, even if it`s not actually part of the OP`s subject.

p.s. Quite a few games don`t use Steam or have an alternative. So that blows your assertions into mist.

 

[BlackWizard]

Yeah Deity is way too easy because even I can beat it even when drinking massive amounts of alcohol.

 

[DeletedSettler]

Oooh. Another Steam Acolyte! They`re never far away from any criticism of their god, even if it`s not actually part of the OP`s subject.

p.s. Quite a few games don`t use Steam or have an alternative. So that blows your assertions into mist.

So it's only okay for you to whine about Steam, and anyone who calls you out just fell for your gotcha? I mean, you're strawmanning me as a steam acolyte and that it's apparently my god, so I shouldn't even bother replying to you, but humor me on why your railing on Steam was cool and good and on-subject (the OP subject being how games are too easy nowadays or whatever) but mine wasn't.

 

[Chum]

So it's only okay for you to whine about Steam, and anyone who calls you out just fell for your gotcha? I mean, you're strawmanning me as a steam acolyte and that it's apparently my god, so I shouldn't even bother replying to you, but humor me on why your railing on Steam was cool and good and on-subject (the OP subject being how games are too easy nowadays or whatever) but mine wasn't.

Yeah, I almost explained why Steam is the preferred platform for publishers these days to save costs and allow ease of patching, but then I realized the people with irrational hatred for an online store and games management system aren't the type of system that are receptive to it in the first place.

Boxed games are out and gone. Long gone are the days of wondering where my Warcraft II disc is so I can play. Now I can play whatever game I want, whenever I want, on whatever PC I want. Multiplayer doesn't involve configuring IP's or opening ports or any of that nonsense. Remember those days? Ah yeah, the good ol' days. Back when you spent more time looking for, installing, and setting up the game than playing the game.

No thanks.

 

[Uzael36]

I'm not 100% convinced that BNW's easier game play was intentional. They added new features, and didn't fully consider how we'd take advantage of them.

And as you noted, with the age of the internet in full force, people learn much faster than in the past. You are no longer alone in learning how to play. You now have an internet full of people willing to teach you or show you how it is done.

I do, however, agree with the sentiment, that the modern gamer tends to not want a challenge anymore, and dev's have made games easier and more automated than ever before. Games in the past, were often made with the idea that no one could beat it, or at least, very few would and as a gamer, we were ok with it. Today's gamers are not ok with a game they can't beat. If they can't beat it, it is poorly coded. I do have a problem with that, even though I've slowly become less tolerant of challenges in games (far more tolerant than anyone else I know, none the less). Our youth no longer bears down to overcome obstacles as those before us had. They expect things handed to them, and for those who want a challenge, it hard to find.

Anyways, I understand how you feel, but this is what we have, and I doubt it'll go back to the way it was.

 

[Socratatus]

I'm not 100% convinced that BNW's easier game play was intentional. They added new features, and didn't fully consider how we'd take advantage of them.

And as you noted, with the age of the internet in full force, people learn much faster than in the past. You are no longer alone in learning how to play. You now have an internet full of people willing to teach you or show you how it is done.

I do, however, agree with the sentiment, that the modern gamer tends to not want a challenge anymore, and dev's have made games easier and more automated than ever before. Games in the past, were often made with the idea that no one could beat it, or at least, very few would and as a gamer, we were ok with it. Today's gamers are not ok with a game they can't beat. If they can't beat it, it is poorly coded. I do have a problem with that, even though I've slowly become less tolerant of challenges in games (far more tolerant than anyone else I know, none the less). Our youth no longer bears down to overcome obstacles as those before us had. They expect things handed to them, and for those who want a challenge, it hard to find.

Anyways, I understand how you feel, but this is what we have, and I doubt it'll go back to the way it was.

The dumbing down of games has gotten me quite sad. It`s not because we have more net information- Games really have been dumbed down.

 

[Chum]

The dumbing down of games has gotten me quite sad. It`s not because we have more net information- Games really have been dumbed down.

SOME games have been dumbed down. Other games are still complex, but the "secrets" of it's complexity get figured out and shared earlier. Still other games just decided "Is this fun? If the answer is no, why are we doing this?"

Obviously things like the cover system in FPS's are terrible. What? Took a shot to the skull? No problem, just duck down for 5 seconds and you're back to full health. Obviously that's a straight up dumbing down of the fact that games like Wolfenstein and Doom and Quake all used health systems that you had to manage. But other things like World of Warcraft and Everquest function at a very similar level of complexity, the problem is that youtube and spoiler sites and advanced log parsers have all combined to remove the mystery from MMO's by showing exactly how stats work means that you no longer have to bother using suboptimal items. It doesn't mean the game is less complex, it's just easier to disseminate the information. Along the same lines, waiting in line for dungeon spots and sitting around waiting for rare spawns fell into the last category -- "This is dumb, why are we doing this?" You weren't hardcore just because you camped the Ancient Cyclops for 47 hours straight, you were just an unemployed college kid. It didn't make you better at video games, it just meant you had a lot of free time.

Conversely, I never see anyone looking back on a game like Battletoads as the pinnacle of gaming, and if you played it in the 90's, you know what I'm talking about. That game was hard. Stupidly so. I don't know anyone that beat it. So why are you looking back on this as some kind of golden age of gaming? If you don't like big budget, cater to Johnny casual-type games, don't play them. There's enough "hardcore" games about that you don't have to.

 

[DeletedSettler]

SOME games have been dumbed down. Other games are still complex, but the "secrets" of it's complexity get figured out and shared earlier.

I'm going to reply to your whole post but I'll quote only this bit.

My favorite story of this is Dark Souls and, sort of related, Don't Starve. Both games had reputations of being "IT'S REALLY HARD!! TOTALLY UNCOMPROMISING!!! NO MORE HAND-HOLDING!!! YOU FIGURE IT ALL OUT YOURSELF!!!"

Wikis explaining every single game mechanic were created in record time. The pitch got completely thrown out the window and left to die, the only thing left being execution. Roguelikes also are doomed to be wiki-fied.

I'm not necessarily sure I agree with the cover FPS thing. Regenerating health serves its own design purposes and leads to a specific style of game, it's not really fair to compare it directly to the arcade-y style of Doom/Quake/Wolfenstein/etc because both styles of resource management demand their own approach. GENERALLY it might make games easier, but you can also ensure each firefight has 100% behind it because you always know the player's at full health going in. You know in Doom how they gave you a blue armor before the Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind?

For what it's worth, I think especially the first Halo did it well: Permanent, needs-a-medkit health with a regenerating shield chunk. And yeah, a lot of FPSes blindly use things like cover and regen health and do it terribly, though, I can agree with that at least. Mostly since they're trying to out-CoD CoD.

MMORPGs and actually just plain ol' RPGs as a whole are games of Math vs. Math. Sometimes it's really fun Math vs. Math, but the goal is to have your Math beat the other thing's Math, and improve your Math along the way. Once you reach the destination, the Ultimate Math, you're done, the game is finished. The rest of it's a pretty picture and stringing you along to keep playing and paying.

Games were stupidly, stupidly hard and obtuse back in the day. Even games genuinely considered golden even today like Super Mario Bros. 3 had weird stuff to them. Duck at the white box for a long while to go behind the stage! Fly over the ceiling of that castle to find a whistle!

A mix of gaming's quarter-muncher arcade roots and needing replay value despite low content. Ever notice the games that are stupidly hard and utter bologna tend to be ridiculously short? You can beat battletoads, every stage, in under an hour. The first Castlevania is under a half hour if you're good at it, and that game is brutal!

 

[Mutineer]

I played Civ5 vanilla the day it come out and it was ... a joke.

Winning strategy was:
1) settle near 3 food tie.
2) Build worker.
3) connect lux and sell it for lot of gold.
4) find houses and settle near or on them.
5) Build any horse units, as many as possible.
6) win by domination.

Srat worked on any level.

 

[Mutineer]

Ohh additional thin I want to say. I do not believe Civ5 BTS is as easy as forum or hof make it.

For example, I post challenge with difficult just immortal start and that challenge so far was downloaded 12 times and NO ONE post win. I admit I was not able to win it myself, Starting location is actually average, but strategic position and some properties of map preventing almost all tricks people use to win on higher difficulty.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=529744

 

[aprince]

1 - My first attraction to CIV1 were the words "The hardest level could only be beaten by a game designer or "Sid".

2 - Unlike the mathematicians who work out exactly what they are going to do before they even start playing (fair play to them), and knowing exactly what they are going to do when the game is launched. I am a stupid old git and when I do achieve something of note (in my eyes), I don't even know how I did it!! When I attempt to beat said game, I have another challenge and although I might remember some of what I did, the new game is another course of common sense as always.

3 - CIV5 is launched, my grandchildren can beat it, it is farcical!

4 - Over time (2 years) imperfections are ironed out.

5 - Forum members have become very good players even on Deity and partly due to the realisation that courthouses are not working the way they should and giving three extra happiness per City, however this is finally put right, just at the point when G&K is launched leaving an expansive game on Vanilla extremely difficult.

6 - I have much unfinished business as regards the VANILLA version, but to beat whatever times I have previously set is a challenge beyond belief, however I didn't give up!

7 - Due to being antagonised by a guy called vexing, I joined, and competed in the HOF and stuffed him, finishing way top of the vanilla VVV HOF tables! How did I manage that? Because I never give up, and as a stupid old git (everyone on the HOF forum thinks I am) I have retired for good, but with a mild satisfaction of what I have done.

8 - G&K is launched and every body raved about it, how could anybody play Vanilla now? If they do, then they must be complete idiots! Well I obviously am. All of a sudden there is an influx of Deity players, and in no time whatsoever!

9 - BNW is launched (I don't even own it), finish times have come down dramatically even on Deity, and this is not the Civ challenge that I used to know! OK granted there are play through's, a tactics forum etc, etc, but this game is not supposed to be easy and that is why we love it so much. I look forward to CIV7 (as long as I am not a drunken old senile person by then) because the next one looks like a load of crap to me! I suppose I could go back to playing space invaders!! CHUM, you will never invade my space no matter how hard you try! Get the hint!!!!!!

EDIT - The whole point of this post is to emphasize my thoughts on the greed of game designers in general, make the game easier, make the victory conditions achievable much quicker and satisfy the lust of the younger gererations who need quick satisfaction and won't be passing on their genes in a hurry.

Moderator Action: Taunting of others is trolling, and unacceptable.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

well the next time you are in far west sydney, look me up.. we can break out the risk board. though not as indepth as civ, risk was fun and took time if you had some good players.

i play vanilla civ v. i didnt realize it was suppose to be harder than the expansions.

 

[aprince]

Yeah, I almost explained why Steam is the preferred platform for publishers these days to save costs and allow ease of patching, but then I realized the people with irrational hatred for an online store and games management system aren't the type of system that are receptive to it in the first place.

Boxed games are out and gone. Long gone are the days of wondering where my Warcraft II disc is so I can play. Now I can play whatever game I want, whenever I want, on whatever PC I want. Multiplayer doesn't involve configuring IP's or opening ports or any of that nonsense. Remember those days? Ah yeah, the good ol' days. Back when you spent more time looking for, installing, and setting up the game than playing the game.

No thanks.

yeah until steam has issues and you cant play for weeks like i did.

 

[aprince]

yeah until steam has issues with said IP and you cant play for weeks like i did.

drm and having to be "online with certain games just blow. being a long time sim city fan, i have yet to play the new simcity because of this. when they release an offline only version im in.

but as the OP states, a lot of it is about greed. dlc, micro transations have put me off with certain franchises. the content one use to be able to unlock in games of the past through accomplishments are now included in dlc,expansions or through micro transactions - its really a sad state for the consumer.

its like in civ v.. im like wheres my machine gunner, religion etc... oh.. its in g&k.. well damn...

i really dislike having to buy expansions for content they shouldve been in a game at launch. FPS use to be great, now you need to subscribe to yearly passes or consistently buy map packs to keep up with the lot - damn you early 2000s medal of honor - spearhead, breakthru.. even with MOH expansions, atleast moh allied assult was a complete game with several maps.. not some bs FPS now that launches with oonly a handful of small maps

what about the sims... holy _________

anyway.. greed

 

[Uzael36]

SOME games have been dumbed down. Other games are still complex, but the "secrets" of it's complexity get figured out and shared earlier. Still other games just decided "Is this fun? If the answer is no, why are we doing this?"

Obviously things like the cover system in FPS's are terrible. What? Took a shot to the skull? No problem, just duck down for 5 seconds and you're back to full health. Obviously that's a straight up dumbing down of the fact that games like Wolfenstein and Doom and Quake all used health systems that you had to manage. But other things like World of Warcraft and Everquest function at a very similar level of complexity, the problem is that youtube and spoiler sites and advanced log parsers have all combined to remove the mystery from MMO's by showing exactly how stats work means that you no longer have to bother using suboptimal items. It doesn't mean the game is less complex, it's just easier to disseminate the information. Along the same lines, waiting in line for dungeon spots and sitting around waiting for rare spawns fell into the last category -- "This is dumb, why are we doing this?" You weren't hardcore just because you camped the Ancient Cyclops for 47 hours straight, you were just an unemployed college kid. It didn't make you better at video games, it just meant you had a lot of free time.

Conversely, I never see anyone looking back on a game like Battletoads as the pinnacle of gaming, and if you played it in the 90's, you know what I'm talking about. That game was hard. Stupidly so. I don't know anyone that beat it. So why are you looking back on this as some kind of golden age of gaming? If you don't like big budget, cater to Johnny casual-type games, don't play them. There's enough "hardcore" games about that you don't have to.

I agree with some of your sentiments, but you touched on another issue that older MMO's were much better at. The social aspect. MMO's today hand you everything, they automate everything. You jump in a queue if you want to explore a dungeon, and are put together with random people who are often on different servers. No one talks, no one gets to know anyone, and the game play is in hyperdrive, giving no thought to it, and no time to talk. As a result, MMO's have a hard time getting any traction anymore. People played Everquest, Ultima Online, and early WoW because of the people they knew, more so than the game play. For the most part, the game play sucked and they still do. It is the social aspect of it that keeps people playing, and they have all but removed it.

As far as EQ goes, the most fun I ever had in an MMO, was in their first expansion. Yet even then, people used to go to Sibilus and camp the same spot every night. However, I had a group of several online friends who would constantly do different dungeons no one knew and even the deepest depths of Sybilis (sp?), which no one ventured to. That was the most fun I've had in an MMO, because it was slow enough paced so you could use strategy, and it was a challenge to explore a dungeon with no one else near you. When you died, the corpse recoveries were a real challenge, and often more fun than when things went right. You also had to talk to people to join groups, and you made friends with those who played well, so you could jump on line and not wait. Being social was a skill that was required to advance, so people became social. With xserver queues, people have become drones and often quit much sooner as a result of not knowing anyone.

WoW was also quite fun, all the way up to Burning crusade. Then they started to kill it. WotLK was decent, only because we already had a good social group, but they started so many things that all other MMO's have started doing that has killed off the social aspect of MMO's.

/end rant

 

[Chum]

drm

Ah, there we go. The 3 letters often used by people who don't understand as a reason why they can't play.

DRM is a complete non-issue. You can access your game anytime you want from anywhere you want on any computer you want. What possibly can you have to complain about in that scenario?

The only possible complaint about it is that if the internet suddenly shuts off tomorrow, you won't be able to play anything you don't have installed. I think that's a fair trade off, since it's pretty obvious that if the internet shuts off tomorrow, we've got far bigger problems on this planet.