Greek UU

[Papa Smurf]

I think it needs another tweak.

i agree

What I would give them instead would be City Garrison I. Cities and fortresses with narrow passageways seem to be good terrain for Phalanxes if the enemy cannot outflank their positions and has to attack the phalanx frontal.

interesting but axes can't get City Garrison I
even thou they could do it if they want to i dont think thats right for the unit

 

[Kietharr]

This is how it should have been from the start, it was beyond dumb that phalanxes, the military unit that conquered the whole known world IRL under Alexander the Great ended up as the guys you'd set on your copper so horses wouldn't pillage them. Phalanxes were actually very weak to agile horsemen IRL but very strong against masses of infantry and unmanuverable chariots. As far as gameplay goes they're very powerful, they have no reliable counter except archery based UUs until HBR. But stuff like immortals, war chariots, and praetorians still outshines them imo, so they're not overpowered.

 

[Rusty Edge]

I'm with you and I wish I knew how to mod the unit. (I am looking over the guide to see if I can muck my way through it.)

I think the tricky part is giving the Phalanx some real power, while not making the Swordsman redundant for the Greeks. If I kept the Phalanx at 5 and added a free cover promotion, and a free shock promotion, in addition to what it already has in BtS, that makes it 6.25 vs. Archers and 6.25 vs. Axemen without any other promotions. This still leaves a potential role for Swordsmen.

Thoughts???

Shock and Cover promotions are ancient and medieval era promotions that become obsolete when the opposition upgrades to gunpowder- so its not something that will give the Greeks an early edge that no-one else can get until the modern era as was the presumed flaw of March .

So.... UU Phalanx- a cheap axman replacement with shock out of the box without a weakness to it's counter. That alone sounds like a UU.

Cover - I've got mixed emotions. I see the phalanx as a field unit more than a siege unit. Archers will be found in forts and cities, or else in an invasion stack to garrison captured cities. Of course the tight formation , shields , and raised pikes of the deeper ranks would offer more protection from arrows than an axman would have. On the other hand , they are bunched together and moving straight forward to make an unmissable target.

Here's a great thread from the pre-BTs era.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=190834&highlight=Phalanx

 

[Instant_Cereal]

Yeah I'm definitely not impressed wit the new Greek UU. In fact, I prefer the old settings to the ones.

Lately I've been thinking of a way to enhance the new Greek UU and I've basically come to the conclusion that a few improvements would be best.

The Cover promotion is obvious: the typical hoplite/phalanx carried metal shields that were generally larger and/or tougher than most other civilization's shields at the time. The phalanx also arranged and operated their spears (forgot the proper name for their spears) in a way that would help deflect arrows by waving their spears in a certain fashion.

The healing rate in enemy territory, like the Romans, would represent the Greek's understanding of logistics that was unmatched in their time (which played a huge role in Alexander's campaigns). I think a bonus of 10% healing rate in enemy territory would be suffice, as it would help the Greeks sustain a military campaign in hostile lands better than others, much like Alexander.

Or, just give them the Commando promotion to represent logistics.

 

[kokoras]

Phalanx are realy strong for the first time in the game,indeed the Greek hoplites where not as strong against canalry as they where against infantry (axemen-swordmen etc) because they fought in a unique way, like a fist they had strong formations when other much larger armies fought like ''rebels'',that is why they managed more than once to win in the battlefield enemies ten times more powerful, simply because they where trained to do so.
The only thing that i don't understand thought is why they changed the unit (Phalanx-Spearmen),it doesn't make sense,if they wanted to change this it would be better to create a new UU and not make a trade with those two.The old Phalanx(Now Spearmen)has the classic helmet and armor of the Greek soldier,so why did they changed it, i hope they reconsider turning the graphic as they where.

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

The crux of the issue is that it's a meh UU now. You don't have to escort it with spearmen now...ok...but do you escort your axemen now in an early rush situation?

I think the free cover issue is mixed, so I can understandably nix that idea.

I understand why they are not spearmen with a higher strength rating, based on historical reasons, concerning a vulnerability to flanking units.

So what do you do, given the above considerations other than increasing their to 6? A free shock out of the box ? Giving them a of 6 and keeping the current bonuses makes them stronger than Praetorians when facing melee units. It would give you 12 vs. 8 odds of defeating attacking chariots though. Keeping the value at 5, but with a free shock promo makes them = 8.75 vs. 7.5 odds when facing axemen and 8.75 vs. 8 when facing Praetorians. It would also make them more useable under Pericles. It would still only give you 10 to 8 odds when facing attacking chariots...but that's allot better than 5 to 8 odds as a standard axeman.

In response to those that want a free healing promo. Think on this...with a free shock promo and under Alexander, the Phalanx would have CR 1, and Shock 1 out of the box. With a cheap barracs, you could easily put the Medic 1 promo on the unit yourself. Under Pericles, you couldn't do that though, but we're really more concerned with how Alexander might use the unit, right?

So...how do we mod the UU to start with the shock promo for free? For this mod, it would be nice to perhaps find a better graphic for the unit, no?

I'm at work, so I can't dig into the unit xml files atm.

 

[budweiser]

The thing is, under Alexander, the phalanx was already an outdated unit. He was actually using a modified phalanx (longer spears, lesser shields) which was only one portion of his army. He used a combined arms approach and he personally lead heavy (companion) cavalry in his field battles. The phalanx was the anvil and the companions were the hammer. He also had light missile units. I think people have the wrong concept of how much of a role the phalanx played in his army. It was a dated unit, but Alex used it to its utmost which is a credit to him.

Getting back to the phalanx itself, it should handle any melee from its time period, which means spear and axe. A legion is really a step up from a phalanx so I am undecided as to how they should compare. I think shock is appropriate. I dont like the cover idea.

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

Budweiser, I agree with you. (I can't wait until the TR mod gets its BtS upgrade...) I do also wish that every civ got atleast two UUs. The hammer and anvil approach is also correct...and man, do I wish we could execute field tactics in this game. Can you imagine being trapped on the field with phalanx formations on your flanks and to the rear, facing a light cavalry charge from the front and a pinning artillery barage of arrows and stones?

People often criticize Darius the younger for fleeing from Alexander at each of the great battles of Granicus, Issus, and Gaugamela. Darius the III was a good emperor perhaps, but he was no military commander and he was poorly equipped, and his forces were too one-dimensional. I don't think the Macedonians gave him much choice but to flee.

Some days I wish I could float over the punic wars and the greek wars and the empire building days of Alexander...float over the glory days of Ramsese...then I would really know what these armies looked like.

 

[Antilogic]

The point of Civ is strategic, not tactical command. What you want, kwarriorpoet, will probably not be included in a Civ game (at least, not Civ4). Total War might be a better option for you, if you want more options in battles.

Darius III is one of those "might-have-beens". Frankly, the Persians were falling apart by the time he took command, suffering from numerous rebellions around their empire, and then one of the greatest military minds humanity has known (Alexander) shows up and starts running through his country. Could he have turned it around? It would have been an incredibly difficult task without Alexander invading, but with Alex on the field, it was virtually impossible. Darius III met his end not at the hands of Alexander, but at the hands of traitors, if I recall correctly.

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

Trust me, I love civ just the way it is (modded) I was just using literary imagery to illustrate or amplify a point.

I agree with your assessment, antilogic, concerning the state of the Persian empire. However, the Persians, for cultural reasons, apparently, also failed to upgrade their military technologies.

 

[Rusty Edge]

The only thing that i don't understand thought is why they changed the unit (Phalanx-Spearmen),it doesn't make sense,if they wanted to change this it would be better to create a new UU and not make a trade with those two.The old Phalanx(Now Spearmen)has the classic helmet and armor of the Greek soldier,so why did they changed it, i hope they reconsider turning the graphic as they where.

I think it was a mistake, like the graphic switch between Qin and Kublai when Warlords came out.

 

[Papa Smurf]

In response to those that want a free healing promo. Think on this...with a free shock promo and under Alexander, the Phalanx would have CR 1, and Shock 1 out of the box. With a cheap barracs, you could easily put the Medic 1 promo on the unit yourself. Under Pericles, you couldn't do that though, but we're really more concerned with how Alexander might use the unit, right?

i do think most people think its a "meh" UU
fix = give it shock

 

[Yavrim]

I think one fact overlooked is the victory of the phalanx formation against the persian war elephants (Alexander), where they were supposedly pretty devastating; If I remember correctly, 400 elephants force was completely destroyed with the Macedonian Phalanx. The game doesnt reflect this at all now the unit has changed.

As others have said, the hoplites (phalanx) were the best heavy infantry of their day, and as such should also have an advantage over other same era heavy infantry.

My suggestion would be to have:

5 Str
+50% vs melee units
+100% defense vs chariot and elephants(or just simply +100% bonus, not just defense)
+25% vs axemen

This would give them the advantage over all melee units of the era (axemen and swordsmen), elephants and chariot units, but still not overpower them in comparison to Roman UU.

 

[Mountain Wumpus]

I think it's much, much too weak, because the chariot attacks were always easily countered with spearmen, which are always available when axemen are.

In your cities, you hardly even need them, because archers take care of chariots for defense, and an axemen can kill them if they're roaming around your roads anyway. In the field, a Stack of Death needs two or so spearmen and you're good.

I liked the old phalanx. Give this one 20% city/ hill defense, or have it start with cover, and we might talk.

 

[MisterBarca]

In terms of gameplay, what I did was add 1 strength to the Phalanx. That way it does beat every melee in its period, but it does not make it indestructible--which is what some of you seem to want the Phalanx to become.

 

[Innawerkz]

Did you remove the +100% vs. Chariots? Otherwise that would seem to make it pretty much invincible to everything except War Elephants, Macemen & Crossbowmen.

At the same time, Swordsman become near-redundant.

 

[Papa Smurf]

Swordsman become near-redundant.

u need to keep it at 5 or swordsmen r useless

5 Str
+50% vs melee units
+100% defense vs chariot and elephants(or just simply +100% bonus, not just defense)
+25% vs axemen

if this happened u hav to think about other things as well
cheap barracks + combat I
this is with Alex of course
and wat r this units gonna get probably shock

so im not sure about the +25% vs axemen
my idea

5
+50% vs melee units
+ Shock + 25 vs melee
+100% defense vs chariot (the whole point of this is so axe-rush cant be countered easily with chariots)

so then its getting a combat I with Alex and with barracks a free promotion
but with shock already out of the way it the promotion wont be as important

if u gave it +25% vs axemen then u could get shock as well which might be to overpowering

thoughts
comments
concerns

 

[Rusty Edge]

In terms of gameplay, what I did was add 1 strength to the Phalanx. That way it does beat every melee in its period, but it does not make it indestructible--which is what some of you seem to want the Phalanx to become.

My concern was that by adding to the base strength you make it more powerful against not only melee units, but horsearchers, archers and cats, too. I figure it should have been an easy target for catapults.

Roman Legions I understand having a big base bonus, because they had training and tactics to face everything. The phalanx was primarily an anti-melee juggernaut. A strength 6 ax replacement with it's 50% melee bonus sounds like a Legion slayer . I don't really want that. I don't want to make spearmen and swordsman obsolete for the Greeks, they used them. But Alexander also used cavalry rather than chariots. I want the phalanx to to be able to face fortified enemy axemen in the field .

It doesn't need to be cheaper than regular axmen.

It doesn't need to face chariots alone.


Shock works. A shock promotion and an elephant adjustment ?


EDIT- I guess Yavrim and I are on the same page.

 

[Yavrim]

The problem I think is more that the axeman is overpowered, and that giving the phalanx any more melee capability means too effective a unit. If axeman bonus to melee was 25% instead of 50%, this would pretty much leave phalanx exactly where it should, and improve the usefulness of the swordsman over the axeman. (axeman will still have the edge though). Axeman will still be dominant infantry unit with only 25% bonus.

Then you could leave the phalanx as is (maybe add bonus to elephants - Im pretty set on this one).

 

[kniteowl]

I don't see anything particularly wrong with the Greek UU gameplay wise and compared to other Axemne UUs, Vulture And Dog Soldier, both have bonus in certain area and nerfs in other areas.

DS bonus + 100% vs melee, resourceless
DS nerf -1 Str.

Vulture bonus + 1 str
Vulture Nerf -25% vs Melee.

any bonus other bonus given to the Greek UU in my opinion would be overpowered unless they have some kind of nerf to balance it out like the other Axemen UUs.

Maybe Something like +50% vs Chariots (instead of 100%) and they also Start with Formation Promotion for example.

Horse Archers can still handle them because HBR opens up Stables and getting Shock to counter Formation is relatively easy.