Greek UU

[Bast]

The phalanx advantage is in numbers because you won't be diluting your early army with spears (because horseback riding is expensive early on, and they counter chariots). It isn't in individual unit combat, which is what everyone seems to be going for here. It is in the fact that your phalanxes will outnumber an enemy's axes given an equal amount of production because your enemy will make spears, if possible, if not to counter you then some other player.

You keep saying that but any UU's strength is in numbers. You make it sound like people march a single Praet or war chariot to enemy cities. They all stack them up to 8 or 9 and take the other cities out.

Fact is, with other UU you know yours is truly unique and that it's making a difference. The extra strength, the extra speed etc... But you stack up 9 phalanxes to your enemy city and find 3 arches and 2 axes. Then you think, right this isn't a UU at all. These are just ordinary axemen!

 

[Silence101]

You keep saying that but any UU's strength is in numbers. You make it sound like people march a single Praet or war chariot to enemy cities. They all stack them up to 8 or 9 and take the other cities out.

Fact is, with other UU you know yours is truly unique and that it's making a difference. The extra strength, the extra speed etc... But you stack up 9 phalanxes to your enemy city and find 3 arches and 2 axes. Then you think, right this isn't a UU at all. These are just ordinary axemen!

The early game is where your production power is fairly limited... in early wars especially, you've got to make the most of limited production. Normally, if you were to take 9 axemen to a city (instead of phalanx as you mentioned in your example), your axemen could be easily countered by chariots. To prepare for this, you instead would produce maybe 5 axemen and 4 spearmen, which is an approx. production equivalent of 9 axemen... but now you have a new challenge.

Let's say that the Civ you're attacking builds a stack of chariots and manages to wipe out your spearmen... sure, you have the defensive advantage against chariots with your 4 spearmen. You'll likely come out ahead in the first few battles... but as those spearmen take a beating, your bound to lose some. In this example, the "break point" of the battle is when your spearmen are dead... your 5 remaining axemen are not equipped to cope with attacking chariots. Your army is no longer a balanced attack force, and has an obvious weakness.

This is just an example, but it represents a scenario that often occurs as your attack force weakens... you will lose units, and a weakness is exposed. The AI doesn't do everything right, but it will take advantage of an unbalanced military force.

For approx the same production numbers, you can build 9 phalanx - instead of having to build a balanced military. Unlike a balanced military, your 9 phalanx have no "break point" - no matter what is thrown at you, you will maintain a balanced attack force. And that my friend, in the early game, is huge.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

^ also 5 axes and 4 spears will be weaker at taking cities than 9 axemen (assuming no chariots)

They should improve the Graphic though to distinguish them more

 

[aelf]

This is true only if an axeman or a spearman is the remaining defender of the city. The old Phalanx had 5 str and could kill archers as good as any axeman.
And archers are the defenders of ancient era. Considering that (if necessary) you have pillaged any metal of the enemy, as any good player should have done.
Even with a spearman (str 4) as the defender the old Phalanx had the advantage.

Haven't you seen the BTS AI stack up on axemen early game?

 

[Antilogic]

The early game is where your production power is fairly limited... in early wars especially, you've got to make the most of limited production. Normally, if you were to take 9 axemen to a city (instead of phalanx as you mentioned in your example), your axemen could be easily countered by chariots. To prepare for this, you instead would produce maybe 5 axemen and 4 spearmen, which is an approx. production equivalent of 9 axemen... but now you have a new challenge.

Let's say that the Civ you're attacking builds a stack of chariots and manages to wipe out your spearmen... sure, you have the defensive advantage against chariots with your 4 spearmen. You'll likely come out ahead in the first few battles... but as those spearmen take a beating, your bound to lose some. In this example, the "break point" of the battle is when your spearmen are dead... your 5 remaining axemen are not equipped to cope with attacking chariots. Your army is no longer a balanced attack force, and has an obvious weakness.

This is just an example, but it represents a scenario that often occurs as your attack force weakens... you will lose units, and a weakness is exposed. The AI doesn't do everything right, but it will take advantage of an unbalanced military force.

For approx the same production numbers, you can build 9 phalanx - instead of having to build a balanced military. Unlike a balanced military, your 9 phalanx have no "break point" - no matter what is thrown at you, you will maintain a balanced attack force. And that my friend, in the early game, is huge.

It seems that you have taken the words out of my mouth. I'll let you keep talking, since my arguments do not appear as cogent.

 

[Silence101]

^ also 5 axes and 4 spears will be weaker at taking cities than 9 axemen (assuming no chariots)

They should improve the Graphic though to distinguish them more

Exactly - you have a "balanced" attack force... they'll work like axemen when you need them to. And I agree with the graphic issue - playing as Alex or Pericles, I always have to build a few spearmen just cause they look cool.

 

[Silence101]

It seems that you have taken the words out of my mouth. I'll let you keep talking, since my arguments do not appear as cogent.

I don't know - you had a post earlier (though I think it was on another thread) that summed it all up quite nicely I thought.

 

[DigitalBoy]

The point of not having to balance axemen and spearmen is well taken, but I still prefer the old phalanx.

^ also 5 axes and 4 spears will be weaker at taking cities than 9 axemen (assuming no chariots)

But 5 axemen and 4 old phalanxs very often were just as good as attacking cities as 9 axemen. I never really minded "diluting" my axemen stack with phalanxs, as the 5 phalanx could attack archers, which the AI has plenty of, as well as the next axeman can.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

^ well if 5 Axemen is good enough t take a city then go with 2 city taking stacks
5 axemen
and
4 axemen

no need for any spears, 2x the city taking fun.

Or use some axes as defense. leave behind 1 Phalanx as opposed to a spear and an axe.