Greg LeMond accuses Lance Armstrong of using EPO
- Thread starter Stapel
- Start date
1st of all, I think Lance is great 
. But even I wonder HOW someone
can be that much better than others in BIKING without SOMETHING going
on
--for such a long period of years 
. I was
mostly just impressed with him overcoming cancer and winning ONE time
. It makes you think...... 
. But even I wonder HOW someone can be that much better than others in BIKING without SOMETHING going
on
--for such a long period of years . I wasmostly just impressed with him overcoming cancer and winning ONE time
. It makes you think......
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
Well, using EPO, just until you are close to the max of hematocrite value, is rather common, I think.
Serutan
Eatibus Anythingibus
dgfred said:1st of all, I think Lance is great
can be that much better than others in BIKING without SOMETHING going
on
mostly just impressed with him overcoming cancer and winning ONE time
Unlike everyone else, Lance has concentrated exclusively on the TDF.
This means he's been fresher than the other main contenders at this
time of year.
If Eddie Merckx had been able to do the same thing, he'd probably have
won 7 or 8 Tours.
As to the drug accusations : I find it suspicious that once again, it
is from a French source. While I don't believe that most French people are
anti-Lance, the most vocal anti-Lance people seem to be there.
Also, there has been such a concerted effort over the years to catch
Lance with drugs. IMO if he was really doing something, he either would have
been caught, or someone with firsthand knowledge would have blown the
whistle on him by now.
Although "LeMond" sounds quite French he really is an American as you well know... And it's not so strange all cycling guys are in France right now.Serutan said:
I wouldn't be surprised if it were true, but I'm sure it's widespread.
Hitro
Feistus Raclettus
As some people take it (which was proven) and others are still better than them the only logical conclusion is that pretty much everyone that reaches a world-class level takes some kind of performance enhancing drugs. Maybe there are isolated cases of people who are so much better than all the others that they don't need it, but generally there will always be someone already naturally extremely good who uses it. And if he doesn't win every time that means the others do it to.
And now don't tell me that Lance would be the only one because he would win "every time".
And now don't tell me that Lance would be the only one because he would win "every time".
Serutan
Eatibus Anythingibus
El Sop said:
I am well aware that Greg LeMond is an American, but the story was
in a French newspaper. Did LeMond claim firsthand knowldege of the
EPO use? And why would he wait until now to say something
like that? If he had evidence, I think the story would have been taken up
in the US; our media has a liking for building stars up, then tearing them
down.
@Hitro - I don't deny the possiblity that Lance is doing something that
is undetectable, or he's found a combination of legal stuff that
has the effect of an illegal substance. But the fact remains that
no accusation up until now has proven true.
SanPellegrino
Wanderer
Serutan said:
well, the doping controls in the US are almost non-existent, also he moved for the summer months from France to Spain, because there are less controls there.
for firsthand knowledge: this year a book came out "LA Confidential" were 4 former members of his team made a sworn statement that he took EPO and such. Riders under lesser suspicion have been expelled from the Tour, but not Lance, so don't blame the french...
MCdread
Couldn't she get drowned?
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2001
- Messages
- 5,348
Well, it is true however that Le Monde (the newspaper) has been very vocal about drugs in cycling...
Very interesting interview, I particulary enjoyed the bits about the (in)famous doctor Ferrari, or doctor EPO as someone has called him, a notorious character in cycling, and coach and adviser of, among others, Indurain, Armstrong, Rominger or Chiapucci. It's also interesting that LeMond refers the fact that until his era, all the cycling greats were great from the start, while after that it was not exactly the same: Rominger only started to win when he was well inside his 30s and after knowing Ferrari; Indurain, while being credited with an extraordinary inate capacity, spent 4 or 5 obscure years in the Tour, and the same can be said about Armstrong, except that he wasn't born with the same natural abilities, but usually regards his desease as the reason why his body was changed and became less of a classic rider, and more of a stage races rider.
The thing about LeMond's VO2 Max being nowhere near the top in the péloton nowadays, if true, is symptomatic...
However, in a way, LeMond is the responsible for ending the glorious era and the romantic aspects of cycling in the mid 80s. It was he who introduced the trend of only preparing for the Tour, it was him who made it possible that technology and gadgets have so much importance in cycling today...
Anyway, I'm gonna say what I think about all this: yes, I think doping is widespread, and I think that it has been a long while since the last guy won one of the major Tours without being doped. We, the fans, and the riders have an agreement: they pretend they're clean and we pretend we believe them, and everyone gets on with the damn show. I stay in front of the TV during the whole Tour and enjoy all the great rides, the drama, the attacks, the strategies, the rivalries, the winners... Maybe I, like so many others, are to be blamed for thinking one thing and acting differently, but what the hell, I'm just a fan, I just watch in on TV, I'm just a voyeur, it's not my life, it's just entertainment...
Someone saying that they never had a positive control means nothing, that's what Millar said too, and indeed he was never caught, but has just confessed taking drugs. Drugs have allways been ahead of controlers and allways will. Just look at what Jesus Manzano, now a cycling proscript, has said. For years, EPO rulled in the péloton. Then as the controls got more sophisticated, new doping methods came and the dopers became again years ahead of the controllers. He said that nowadays, the new fashion is getting blood transfusions of previously prepared blood for better oxigenation during effort.
Very interesting interview, I particulary enjoyed the bits about the (in)famous doctor Ferrari, or doctor EPO as someone has called him, a notorious character in cycling, and coach and adviser of, among others, Indurain, Armstrong, Rominger or Chiapucci. It's also interesting that LeMond refers the fact that until his era, all the cycling greats were great from the start, while after that it was not exactly the same: Rominger only started to win when he was well inside his 30s and after knowing Ferrari; Indurain, while being credited with an extraordinary inate capacity, spent 4 or 5 obscure years in the Tour, and the same can be said about Armstrong, except that he wasn't born with the same natural abilities, but usually regards his desease as the reason why his body was changed and became less of a classic rider, and more of a stage races rider.
The thing about LeMond's VO2 Max being nowhere near the top in the péloton nowadays, if true, is symptomatic...
However, in a way, LeMond is the responsible for ending the glorious era and the romantic aspects of cycling in the mid 80s. It was he who introduced the trend of only preparing for the Tour, it was him who made it possible that technology and gadgets have so much importance in cycling today...
Anyway, I'm gonna say what I think about all this: yes, I think doping is widespread, and I think that it has been a long while since the last guy won one of the major Tours without being doped. We, the fans, and the riders have an agreement: they pretend they're clean and we pretend we believe them, and everyone gets on with the damn show. I stay in front of the TV during the whole Tour and enjoy all the great rides, the drama, the attacks, the strategies, the rivalries, the winners... Maybe I, like so many others, are to be blamed for thinking one thing and acting differently, but what the hell, I'm just a fan, I just watch in on TV, I'm just a voyeur, it's not my life, it's just entertainment...
Someone saying that they never had a positive control means nothing, that's what Millar said too, and indeed he was never caught, but has just confessed taking drugs. Drugs have allways been ahead of controlers and allways will. Just look at what Jesus Manzano, now a cycling proscript, has said. For years, EPO rulled in the péloton. Then as the controls got more sophisticated, new doping methods came and the dopers became again years ahead of the controllers. He said that nowadays, the new fashion is getting blood transfusions of previously prepared blood for better oxigenation during effort.
Serutan
Eatibus Anythingibus
@SanPellegrino - As I said before, I don't blame "The French" as a whole.
And ElSop has a point about the why the stories seem to
originate in France.
About the other riders who have been expelled : My personal
belief is that except for those who confess (David Millar),
or those caught red-handed (Festina in 1998), that mere accusation
isn't grounds to be expelled. For anyone.
As to "LA Confidential"; It hasn't been published in
the USA, so I haven't read it. Lance claimed in a TV
interview that the book was written by a guy who was out
to get him, regardless of facts, and persuaded some "disgruntled"
former teammates to back up the accusation. This makes for
a "he said, she said" situation, since no one has caught
Lance at anything. Lance also claimed that the book would
never be published in the US; this must be becuase his
lawyers have convinced potential US publishers that they would
face a multimillion dollar libel suit, and probably lose
(He couldn't simply get it banned).
As an aside, Lance strikes me as someone that would be
easy to dislike; he comes across as both arrogant and condescending
in spontaneous interviews.
@McDread - Excellent post. You make very good points that are, sadly, spot on.
But the blood doping thing surprises me a bit. I donate blood, and
have a nice prominent scar from needle insertions. I would have thought
that there would be telltale needle tracks from something like that...
And ElSop has a point about the why the stories seem to
originate in France.
About the other riders who have been expelled : My personal
belief is that except for those who confess (David Millar),
or those caught red-handed (Festina in 1998), that mere accusation
isn't grounds to be expelled. For anyone.
As to "LA Confidential"; It hasn't been published in
the USA, so I haven't read it. Lance claimed in a TV
interview that the book was written by a guy who was out
to get him, regardless of facts, and persuaded some "disgruntled"
former teammates to back up the accusation. This makes for
a "he said, she said" situation, since no one has caught
Lance at anything. Lance also claimed that the book would
never be published in the US; this must be becuase his
lawyers have convinced potential US publishers that they would
face a multimillion dollar libel suit, and probably lose
(He couldn't simply get it banned).
As an aside, Lance strikes me as someone that would be
easy to dislike; he comes across as both arrogant and condescending
in spontaneous interviews.
@McDread - Excellent post. You make very good points that are, sadly, spot on.
But the blood doping thing surprises me a bit. I donate blood, and
have a nice prominent scar from needle insertions. I would have thought
that there would be telltale needle tracks from something like that...
Shabbaman
rebuffing the rebels
This story was in the Nieuwe Revu or Volkskrant weeks before, iirc it was an excerpt from that book about Armstrong. It's not weird that Le Monde brings it up again, since it's tour time and all, but it's just a big fuss.
MCdread
Couldn't she get drowned?
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2001
- Messages
- 5,348
Serutan said:
Yeah, I have donated blood too a couple of times and the needle is just huge and leaves a very visible mark. Well, obviously I don't know how they hide it, if it's true. In the book LA Confidential I think there is a passage where a former member of Armstrong's team said she was asked to apply make up in the needle marks in his arm.
AVN
Deity
Needle insertions are no proof of blood doping.
I think a lot of cyclers (if not all) do have them, because they get (legal) food/vitamine supplements directly injected into their blood.
Tour de France cyclers need so many calories, that it's impossible to get them by eating food alone. Their stomach wouldn't be able to handle that.
Therefore they get those calories/vitamines partly by injections.
Sorry if due to my bad English my description is unclear, but I wasn't able find a translation for the Dutch word "infuus" which describes the process how the cyclers get their food/vitamine supports better.
I think a lot of cyclers (if not all) do have them, because they get (legal) food/vitamine supplements directly injected into their blood.
Tour de France cyclers need so many calories, that it's impossible to get them by eating food alone. Their stomach wouldn't be able to handle that.
Therefore they get those calories/vitamines partly by injections.
Sorry if due to my bad English my description is unclear, but I wasn't able find a translation for the Dutch word "infuus" which describes the process how the cyclers get their food/vitamine supports better.
Serutan
Eatibus Anythingibus
AVN said:
"Intravenous" is another translation.
Aggie
Deity
Shabbaman said:
Exactly. Old 'news'...
Hitro
Feistus Raclettus
Well, I don't really think we're much to blame. What could we do about it? Ignoring it? That would not make it any more clean, as soon as there is interest in it and with that and the money it brings the incentive to cheat someone will do it. That is very sad but also very true.MCdread said:
Yes, I also enjoy the Tour (and other races) every year. And yes, I'm convinced that Armstrong and almost (or completely) everyone else who finishes anywhere near the top used some kind of "performance enhancing" drugs. The same is probably true in all other sports where extreme endurance or strength are a major advantage.
It will never change but for me it is not reason enough not to care about sport anymore. That wouldn't help anyone.
jpowers
Emperor
LeMond is a princess who is pissed that he's no longer the center of attention. He came out with these allegations 3-4 years ago, then shut up when his agent told him his bicycle sales were dropping. He's so desperate for someone to pay attention to him that he's opened his mouth again just at the time Lance is about to break the record for wins. Maybe Lance dopes, maybe he doesn't. Until someone can find a positive test result, he should be under just as much suspicion as Ullrich, Basso or Hamilton.
Shabbaman
rebuffing the rebels
Or LeMond. There are a lot more stringent tests these days.
.
.