Grigori Archmages

[Witzzard]

Assassins could aslo be an option to counter them. Even if you need more then 3.
Using yourself Archmages/Mages.

Otherwise it isn't only Grigori Archmages, but also Calabim Archmages...

To weaken fire magic i would suggest adding a miss-chance of the thrown spells, while keeping Air and so on spells, without a missing-chance.

 

[Grey Fox]

Or you could nerf Twincast slightly so it can't cast the same spell twice, but two different spells. This would stop you from making 18 meteors, but you could use 9 Meteors and crush 3 times.

 

[xienwolf]

Sorry if I torqued you off Ecofarm. It isn't personal against you, I was pretty pleased that someone saw my name on the huge Gameflood list and invited me over to Hamhachii. If I wasn't there just to check how completely broken my system was for multiplayer at all it probably would have made my day.

It isn't you as specific people that irks me, but the settings you used. And yes, this thread has managed to bring to light the problems with magic resistance, which is why I like that you guys do some strategy discussions here. But the initial post didn't highlight that. It just said "OMG ROXXORS! THIS BE SO AWESOME, I DESTROY UR DUDES! LOL" (heavily paraphrased), rather than setting a framework.

Then, the response to the first couple of answers for how to counter it (in a normal setting game) were dismissed as being impossible (though they are actually quite decent... for a normal setting game, or properly functioning mechanics). If the initial post outlined the settings you wanted to discuss strategy for, or at least one of the first few responses, I think that overall the tone wouldn't have been quite so... nuisance?

And Grey Fox: That's precisely how I thought Twincast worked when I first got it. I was really confused when I couldn't cast a second spell until I finally cast something that had an effect I could actually see was doubled (first spell was Haste I think... Oddly useless when Twincasted).

 

[Blakmane]

I'm afraid I have to agree with xienwolf here. The settings you are running are perfectly set up for strong mid/lategame strats (such as grigori archmages). Lose the unrestricted leaders (it's so unbalanced I wouldn't even know where to start), advanced start (which is pushing you up towards midgame very quickly), no barbs and 100 turn no-war limit (which together are allowing your lategame civs such as the grigori to build up their imba strats in peace) and you'll be moving in the right direction to countering this strat. With these removed it's as simple as going hippus and rushing horsemen, or any other similar earlygame strat. Lategame civs fall hardcore to earlygame strats, especially when their tech beelining allows for no good combat units (such as the magic tech progression).

Ultimately also, quick speed will lead to an advantage to lategame civs, both warmongering and builder. In multiplayer it's a little unavoidable but you could at least try bumping it up to normal.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

The problem, I think, is in two parts:

- allowing unrestricted leaders
- not rushing in to take out the source of reagents

Removing either of these components and you're fine.

Actually, with worldspells, adventurer archmages just became that much more dangerous. I'm not sure if the designers thought about this one (I'm pretty sure they did though... which is sick). Your druid build is also a very high level one, to be honest. Me? I play FFA, but even then I'm a sucker for any strategy based on Runes.

 

[Calavente]

assassin have been proposed:
why can't you go esus or shadow mana, build assassin with hidden ?? (or shados with hidden?)
or any stack with hidden ? (is hidden a stack effect or a unit effect?)

those 3 archmage stacks, due to the tech researched can't be very powerful by themself ?
there only strength is the meteors ? right? so your issue is to arrive close to the archmages without dying ?

with hidden you can move a huge stack close to those uber stacks and crush it. or at least assassinate the 3 archmages before they are dangerous... even better if you are in your territory, with 3+ mvt per point, and haste : at least 6-9 mvt to go hidden toward that stack.

I have no idea if this strat works to counter gri-arch with your insane timing..
but not counting the timing it may work.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I actually tried it online and, yeah, it's worse than I thought. I did lose 2 of the 3 adventurer/archmages eventually to theLjosalfar world spell , but the damage was done - half of the opposing team just died.

Then I thought, you know, perhaps quick speed favours late strategies, so I went offline and tried it on epic speed. Result: it was worse. Even deity AI's didn't stand a chance, as long as I had scouts and saw those assassins, my meteors would blow up everything in my way. I conquered so quickly I had lots of empty enemy cities and not enough troops in my stack to hold them. Congratulations, you just broke the game.

 

[oyzar]

Not like deity AI can stand against any other strat though.. Also i don't think that unrestricted leaders allow for more options. And yes atm twincasting meteor shower archmages is pretty much unstoppable if you let anyone get to them... If you have to get early military first it isn't as fast and hence not as dangerous.. What quick does is makes any strategy requiring more technology stronger and so it makes archmages stronger in comparison to for example a warrior or axerush... Though ofc it would probably still work if the player wasn't expecting it... At the moment there are alot of options you could possibly do but very few of them are actually viable...

 

[it-ogo]

Actually you do not need scouts far from stack. A couple of birds is enough. In addition birds are protection from assassins as they are killed first.

And yes, the slower speed, the better human player against AI - that is general trend.

 

[SwordofStriker]

I cannot stress this enough:

EIGHTEEN collateral 9s

Eighteen

18

I know this is completely off topic, but this reminded me of a video I saw on youtube that I can't stop laughing at and thought I'd share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxXmPFxf2Jg

Gotta love the shop at home guy. Anyways, sorry for the threadjack.

To be on topic, I'm of the opinion that fireballs and meteors could just have a damage limit like siege equipment. That would pretty much solve this dilemma don't you think? It would also force people who use mages and archmages heavily to bring support units to do the actual fighting if they wanted to kill units the same turn they were hit with the spells.

 

[Ecofarm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxXmPFxf2Jg

Gotta love the shop at home guy. Anyways, sorry for the threadjack.

"Go in here, let the butterfly just fly in on that monkey."

Oh Crap

 

[leo.]

To be on topic, I'm of the opinion that fireballs and meteors could just have a damage limit like siege equipment. That would pretty much solve this dilemma don't you think? It would also force people who use mages and archmages heavily to bring support units to do the actual fighting if they wanted to kill units the same turn they were hit with the spells.

Very good idea.

 

[oyzar]

It would make them the same as crush basically. Still very powerful allowing you to basically kill everything in your path but now you have to bring axemen along instead of scouts...

 

[Rod]

I do not like how some people blame others for playing FFH in MP and with special rules.

We need to understand that this 'sect' is actually a hardcore beta testing group and as the play very fast and very often they simply stumble over inbalancies in the code more frequently.

Even with limited game experience I realized that the Magic + Adventurer combination is way to powerful.
( I realized that when I played with late game starts for quick games.)
Grigori can easily rule every map, way more than any other civ.

The problem is that they rule only in the hands of human players.

The AI is never able to see and to use such exploits therefore a nerfing of the civ is not serving the purpose but ... a nerfing of the combination would serve.

Like what about following idea. An Adventurer can only be one unit type at a time. That means as long as we have already an adventurer going down the arcane line, than no other can upgrade into the arcane, but the other adventurers can become disciples, archers, recon etc .. you get the point.


In this way Grigori can still get archmages in traditional ways (training and upgrading mages), but just not rush them in the current ways.

The most awesome thing about this tweak is that we do not nerfe the AI Grigori as the AI Grigori in anyway is upgrading his adventurers into a variety of units.

 

[xienwolf]

Don't like it at all. Once the AI is improved after Ice, they will use Adventureres properly, and they are MEANT to be used to your advantage. The AI will also counter Archmages, even Hero ones, properly once tweaked.

Adventurerer Archmages are ONLY overpowered on a quick setting where there are problems getting a normal caster to match them. If worried about adventurer archmages in a longer game, one simply finds them and eliminates them before that tech is ever researched. But one also has plenty of their own Mages sitting around with experience to spare who will quickly promote to Archmages themselves. True, no Twincast, but that only prevents them from being COMPLETELY effective countering the Grigori Mage for Mage, it does nothing to your ability to field high movement Mounted units against them, or sending in a rush of Assassins/Shadows/Summons.


Field 30 Conjurers with Sun 2 against a Grigori Archmage Hero Meteor Twincasting crew someday, if they get within fireball range of you it is only because you decided to allow them so you could try to Dominate one for yourself.

(And by the way, I do see value in your lightning-fast and repetitive gameplay for finding problems in the game, but that is in BUGS, not BALANCE. The worthwhile thing to have come out of the Archmage issue was noticing that Elemental Resistance is broken).

 

[Tlalynet]

I agree magi are superpowerfull, but if somoene is going for them without advanced start you have a lot of time to counter. I thought mages where supposed to be a long term investment that became superpowerfull. With advanced start they are just superpowerfull.
It would be nice to modify advanced start for balance, but in the normal game ther is a balnance. Kill the mage buidler when all he's got are axmen, the AI already tries to do this to me when I play Shiem.

 

[Cuteunit]

Sun 2? why that choice

 

[xienwolf]

High movement rate + Worthy strength of the Sandlions, and personal preference.

 

[oyzar]

Don't like it at all. Once the AI is improved after Ice, they will use Adventureres properly, and they are MEANT to be used to your advantage. The AI will also counter Archmages, even Hero ones, properly once tweaked.

Adventurerer Archmages are ONLY overpowered on a quick setting where there are problems getting a normal caster to match them. If worried about adventurer archmages in a longer game, one simply finds them and eliminates them before that tech is ever researched. But one also has plenty of their own Mages sitting around with experience to spare who will quickly promote to Archmages themselves. True, no Twincast, but that only prevents them from being COMPLETELY effective countering the Grigori Mage for Mage, it does nothing to your ability to field high movement Mounted units against them, or sending in a rush of Assassins/Shadows/Summons.


Field 30 Conjurers with Sun 2 against a Grigori Archmage Hero Meteor Twincasting crew someday, if they get within fireball range of you it is only because you decided to allow them so you could try to Dominate one for yourself.

(And by the way, I do see value in your lightning-fast and repetitive gameplay for finding problems in the game, but that is in BUGS, not BALANCE. The worthwhile thing to have come out of the Archmage issue was noticing that Elemental Resistance is broken).

Actually grigori archmages are noticeable worse on quick because GP generation increase cost is bugged. Instead of costing 67 then 134 etc points it cost 67 then 167 then 267 etc points. It is probably the same bug for epic and marathon meaning you can probably get archmages on marathon insanly fast comparably. Kael have shown no want to ever want to correct this bug so i expect it to remain for quite a while. There is no way you can get even close to 30 conjurers in the time grigori can get archmages. It is doable in roughly 100 turns on quick(requiring say 12 great people means (33+66+99+132+165)*2 = 990 too much great people points paid). This means that it is doable considerably quicker than the 150 turns you would think it was doable in on normal. Probably under 120 turns. How fast can you get 30 conjurers?

Of course advanced start is buggy as hell. Cities cost the same as in normal civ instead of the same as settlers in FFH which makes them very cheap comparativly to other things. Coupled with the fact that techs are mostly insanly expensive in ffh and the only strat pretty much is to get out as many cities as possible during the start stage of the game.

I tried starting this battle up in worldbuilder but for some reason when i tried to start it in hotseat the conjurers/archmages were unable to chose any relevant promotions. They could actually chose spell effects as promotions though which seemed rather wierd..

 

[Ecofarm]

30 conjs vs 3 grig-archs...

Whoever hits first wins. If the archs have champs to protect, there's no contest. Also, they can summon those 18 9s per turn to protect themselves, if necessary.

Besides, 30 is a rediculas number. It would take you 4x30/4 = 30 turns just to build the adepts: if you were doing so in 4 cities that all did built an adept in just 4 turns. More realistically? It would take you 50+ turns to build them and then they would get xp... with the last ones coming in around never.

Finally, why wouldnt the archs have 30 fireball mages with them, if u can have 30 conjs? It's not like it takes any time to build or upgrade the adventurers.

(quick speed)

There are 2 ways to stop Grigori archmages.

1) Have a crossbow survive the initial slam of meteors (you'll need ALOT of units in the city), and promote to CD3 and DRx... this effectively makes the crossbow a 35+, without culture. Of course, there is nothing to stop pillaging unless you make a quick, long range strike force as well. I think crossbows were meant to defend against dragons, the avatar, riders, etc. In MP, you have to crush or mael them for any hope of taking the city. When the archs come in to mael, hit with everything you got - fast move style. Oh yea, almost forgot, you're going to need Yvain or Sphener (lifespark and heals) in that city or it wont work.

2) Kill Grig before it gets there.